Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[OneSheep]

Because if Adam was something more than human (with the ‘infused knowledge’ or whatever), such that he cannot be compared to an ‘ordinary’ human, then why did humanity need to be redeemed?

Hi T.E.,

Why does humanity need to be redeemed, you must mean. We need redemption because we are ignorant and often blind, and we need someone to show us how to transcend our nature. We need redemption because we think that God is wrathful and that we deserve the worst.

We need to be redeemed from our slavery to our desires and appetites, which blind us. We need to be redeemed from our hatred and carrying of grudges.

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.

We need to be redeemed from our image of God, the OT image, the distorted image mentioned in CCC 399. Did you look up the book I recommended, Good Goats?

I’m actually the realist here. I can (having an open mind) realize that humanity in order to be capable of the good that it often shows, has to be equally capable of the bad. . .and to rationally ‘choose’ one or the other. . .not blindly but with knowledge and ‘consent’.

St. Augustine said, “It is through the Spirit that we see that whatsoever exists in any way is good.” However, St. Augustine never said that we were not capable of doing bad, and neither do I, T.E.

So, you again assert that people can K&WRG. Please provide an example, and then we can investigate your premise! What good are assertions if they do not hold up to scrutiny?

I’m not a Pollyanna or Pangloss who finds everything perfect and beautiful. . .and I’m not a rigid Calvinist wailing about the natural degradation of man. . .

I’m a rational Catholic who has benefited from the rich heritage of my faith and its teachings and teachers such that I can see clearly the incredible grace that God has given us, the gifts of free will, and while I can HOPE that ultimately all people will come to sufficient of that grace to be saved, I can neither PRESUME that all WILL do so, or DESPAIR that few to NONE will.

I’m not asking that people believe because say so. . .I’m asking people to calmly and rationally look at what GOD has said, through Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium. He is a lot more reliable than even psychology. . . sorry, Sigmund.

Sigmund did not know what he was doing. Jesus and the Saints were way ahead of him.

Praying and using the gift of understanding in order to help in forgiveness of people is not “pop psychology”, T.E.

Thanks T.E., you’re keeping me on my toes!

 

[davidv]

Great question, David! Well, I don’t have an advanced degree in those fields, but I do know a bit about behavior, psychology, etc. now. But when I started praying for understanding, I did not. And I did come to understand without the degrees. Understanding boils down to the most oft-stated thing that Jesus said, “Seek and you shall find.” It takes some time and patience, and looking for the next question.

It is relevant to the thread because it is exactly those people that we think evil or bad (demonize) that are the most likely we say are K&WRG. We think that they should know better. It’s quite natural, David. When we feel resentful towards someone, we think of them in a negative way. I am not referring to thinking of people I resent as having horns and a tail, I am just saying we think of people as having less value when we resent them. Does this not happen in your mind?

I think you are speaking of someone other than the posters on this thread. Please identify the post(s) where Adam was demonized.

This does not happen in my mind. So you assumption that it does is unfounded, just like your claim related to the OP topic.

Okay.,I can try to help with this. Here again is Fr.C’s quote:
Yet God’s measure of justice is different from ours and if he sees good faith or blameless ignorance he saves even those who had been anxious to fight him in their lives. We believers should prepare ourselves for surprises in this regard.

God’s measure of justice is an aspect of God’s infinite love and mercy. God forgives, always, even those who are anxious to fight him in their lives. We may think, "God will never forgive that so-and-so, but Fr. C. says we should be ready to be surprised!

When I use the word “condemn” I am using it as “think negatively about someone”, not “thinking they should go to hell”. The former is natural, the latter is also somewhat natural, but with an added layer of ignorance.

The story of Adam, in itself, is one to be taken figuratively.

Not so. This statement seems to deny that there were two original humans who K&W rejected God by disobeying a very simple and easy to understand command. Even if they had special knowledge, this knowledge was not required for them know and will a good choice over a bad choice.

It is a story about God and the first human, a “human” that was supposedly given special knowledge and had no strong desire, which to me* is refuted by the story itself*. in fact, there is no mention of Adam’s “preternatural nature” in Genesis. Adam desired knowledge, he desired the fruit. Desire blinds normal humans to the voice of truth, authority, love, or anything else that stands in the way of our desire.

Only when one allows it. We are all given grace sufficient to overcome all temptations. All that is required is to ask for them.

When desire does not blind us, we obey reason.

And reason can prevent the blindness.

“You will not certainly die” was an untruth, right? Adam believed this untruth, did he not?

And Adam was very receptive to this untruth. Why?

Genesis explains why.

Oh look, I started addressing Adam. oops.

 

[davidv]

Hi T.E.,

Why does humanity need to be redeemed, you must mean. We need redemption because we are ignorant and often blind, and we need someone to show us how to transcend our nature. We need redemption because we think that God is wrathful and that we deserve the worst.

This is not true. Redemption is required because without Jesus’ suffering, death and resurrection, we are without sanctifying grace, enslaved to sin and barred from heaven.

622 The redemption won by Christ consists in this, that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many” (*Mt *20:28), that is, he “loved [his own]
to the end” (*Jn *13:1), so that they might be “ransomed from the futile ways inherited from [their] fathers” (I *Pt *1:18).

We need to be redeemed from our slavery to our desires and appetites, which blind us. We need to be redeemed from our hatred and carrying of grudges.

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.

We need to be redeemed from our image of God, the OT image, the distorted image mentioned in CCC 399. Did you look up the book I recommended, Good Goats?

St. Augustine said, “It is through the Spirit that we see that whatsoever exists in any way is good.” However, St. Augustine never said that we were not capable of doing bad, and neither do I, T.E.

So, you again assert that people can K&WRG. Please provide an example, and then we can investigate your premise! What good are assertions if they do not hold up to scrutiny?

Adam has been given as an example. Scrutinize away.

Sigmund did not know what he was doing.

Asserted without evidence.

Jesus and the Saints were way ahead of him.

Praying and using the gift of understanding in order to help in forgiveness of people is not “pop psychology”, T.E.

Thanks T.E., you’re keeping me on my toes!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

One Sheep, we have gone more than halfway with you.

Just for the heck of it, why DON’T you use Adam to scrutinize? Give it a shot.

Could it possibly be that because we have so much evidence that Adam really **did knowingly and willingly reject God **that it would blow your theory out of the water?

And BTW, the fact that Adam knowingly and willingly rejected God doesn’t mean that he is ‘beyond forgiveness’ or that accepting that humans can reject God knowingly and willingly turns God into some ‘wrathful creation’.

Knowing that Jesus died to redeem us of our **sins **(oh no! I said the four letter ‘sins’ word! ) does not turn us into agents of punitive ‘gotcha’ meanies out to condemn our fellow humans.

And I’m still waiting for the examples of people in this thread who are all fire-breathing finger-pointers and ‘unforgiving’ of their fellow humans. Because I sure don’t see them. Where does acceptance that humanity can choose evil mean that I’m condemning them, when I think I have been at great pains to acknowledge Christ’s redeeming, salvific love and grace?

 

[987mk]

I’m a former Roman Catholic.

I am now an Atheist.

I knowingly and willingly reject the assertion that God exists. I’m certain the God of Abraham does not exist and believe that if a supernatural being does exist, it has nothing at all to do with us.

 

[OneSheep]

Good afternoon, David!

I think you are speaking of someone other than the posters on this thread. Please identify the post(s) where Adam was demonized.

I did not say anyone had, David. I was saying that it is common for people to feel negatively toward others when we resent their actions.

This does not happen in my mind. So you assumption that it does is unfounded, just like your claim related to the OP topic.

Wow! You never feel negatively toward anyone? Not even against Hitler? Not even against a political candidate you don’t agree with? Not even OneSheep when he writes things you don’t like?

Not so. This statement seems to deny that there were two original humans who K&W rejected God by disobeying a very simple and easy to understand command. Even if they had special knowledge, this knowledge was not required for them know and will a good choice over a bad choice.

So, why did those two disobey?

Only when one allows it. We are all given grace sufficient to overcome all temptations. All that is required is to ask for them.

And reason can prevent the blindness.

Yes, we have the grace, but overcoming temptations takes utilizing the grace, by developing a conscience and developing awareness. And no, reason cannot prevent blindness. For example, when a human sees something material that he really, really wants, his “reason” will start to adjust in ways that rationalize spending beyond his limits. He may even rationalize theft. The rationalizing process is the direct effect of blindness itself. The object desired takes precedent over reason. It happens automatically, and it will be the major impetus for a decision unless the individual realizes what has happened and gets back into his “right mind”. Until then, his “knowingly” is greatly compromised. There is something very relevant he is not considering! How many guys are you acquainted with who had wonderful wives but fooled around? They are not right in their mind, wrong-headed, blinded.

In short, blindness happens; it is in our nature, it is innate. However, with awareness we can realize that our reason is being compromised by desire. We may have also developed a habit of “thou shalt not want”. However, the “want” is still triggered, right? The reaction to the want is (hopefully) “thou shalt not want” incorporated into the conscience. This all happens very quickly in the mind, often subconsciously. The establishment of “want” has been proven in studies of subliminal advertising.

Genesis explains why.

Genesis does not explain completely why. We will get to that.

Thanks for your response David!

 

[OneSheep]

I’m a former Roman Catholic.

I am now an Atheist.

I knowingly and willingly reject the assertion that God exists. I’m certain the God of Abraham does not exist and believe that if a supernatural being does exist, it has nothing at all to do with us.

Howdy, 987mk

So, in my observation you are not K&WRG, you are rejecting an assertion.

Now, pardon my analysis, but when I say “If” a supernatural being, and “If” that supernatural being is omnipotent, omniscient, etc, then the “if” represents agnosticism, right? Strict atheism takes a lot more faith!

And if you believe that such a being has nothing to do at all with us, then you are not rejecting God, but you are rejecting an image of God that, in my eyes, is an untruth. So, you are not rejecting belief in God, you are rejecting an untruth.

Yes, if I believed that God had nothing to do with us, then it would be logical, and inconsequential, to reject the assertion.

 

[OneSheep]

One Sheep, we have gone more than halfway with you.

Just for the heck of it, why DON’T you use Adam to scrutinize? Give it a shot.

Could it possibly be that because we have so much evidence that Adam really **did knowingly and willingly reject God **that it would blow your theory out of the water?

And BTW, the fact that Adam knowingly and willingly rejected God doesn’t mean that he is ‘beyond forgiveness’ or that accepting that humans can reject God knowingly and willingly turns God into some ‘wrathful creation’.

Well, you two have asked enough times, I should at least demonstrate what happens with Adam. You make a very good point about even if a person were to K&WR that he would not be beyond forgiveness. However, I can still say that in my observation no human ever K&WRG. And I am talking about normal humans, not ones in a figurative story with characteristics that are not human.

But, like I said, you two have asked enough times, I guess I should give in.

Knowing that Jesus died to redeem us of our **sins **(oh no! I said the four letter ‘sins’ word! ) does not turn us into agents of punitive ‘gotcha’ meanies out to condemn our fellow humans.

Are you like David, that you never think of someone else in a negative way? Thinking negatively of someone is not intentional, it is a triggered reaction. No one is “out to condemn”, condemnation is an automatic function of the conscience. When someone threatens our security or breaks our rules, our minds think negatively toward them, we hold something against them.

Are you saying that you never have such a triggered reaction? Oh, but you must experience guilt sometimes, right? If a person can feel guilt, a triggered negative reaction to oneself, resulting in self-resentment, then one can certainly feel that same negativity toward someone else. It is a natural reaction, T.E. We are called to forgive those whom which we have a negative feeling, those who trespass against us. Otherwise, who do we forgive?

And I’m still waiting for the examples of people in this thread who are all fire-breathing finger-pointers and ‘unforgiving’ of their fellow humans. Because I sure don’t see them. Where does acceptance that humanity can choose evil mean that I’m condemning them, when I think I have been at great pains to acknowledge Christ’s redeeming, salvific love and grace?

Hmmm. Did I say that there were such people on this thread? I don’t remember. However, I have sensed a bit of negativity toward me, and others noted it also in posts 495 and 508. Accusations are blame, blame is negativity. It depends on the delivery, though. There is no reason to get into it now. I am not hearing any negativity in your voice in this post I am responding to of yours.

So I can show you why Adam is not an applicable example. For starters, though, can you put yourself in Eve’s and Adam’s shoes? Could you have done what they did?

I thank you for your response.

 

[davidv]

Good afternoon, David!

I did not say anyone had, David. I was saying that it is common for people to feel negatively toward others when we resent their actions.

Wow! You never feel negatively toward anyone? Not even against Hitler? Not even against a political candidate you don’t agree with? Not even OneSheep when he writes things you don’t like?

Why does feeling negatively equal demonizing? All these people are persons, who God desires to be in Heaven. How can I demonize them?

So, why did those two disobey?

They chose to.

Yes, we have the grace, but overcoming temptations takes utilizing the grace, by developing a conscience and developing awareness. And no, reason cannot prevent blindness.

Why not?

For example, when a human sees something material that he really, really wants, his “reason” will start to adjust in ways that rationalize spending beyond his limits. He may even rationalize theft. The rationalizing process is the direct effect of blindness itself. The object desired takes precedent over reason. It happens automatically, and it will be the major impetus for a decision unless the individual realizes what has happened and gets back into his “right mind”. Until then, his “knowingly” is greatly compromised. There is something very relevant he is not considering! How many guys are you acquainted with who had wonderful wives but fooled around?

None.

They are not right in their mind, wrong-headed, blinded.

In short, blindness happens; it is in our nature, it is innate.

Yes blindness happens, but not continuously. If it did how could there be sin?

However, with awareness we can realize that our reason is being compromised by desire. We may have also developed a habit of “thou shalt not want”. However, the “want” is still triggered, right? The reaction to the want is (hopefully) “thou shalt not want” incorporated into the conscience. This all happens very quickly in the mind, often subconsciously. The establishment of “want” has been proven in studies of subliminal advertising.

Genesis does not explain completely why. We will get to that.

Why is a complete explanation required?

Thanks for your response David!

 

[davidv]

Well, you two have asked enough times, I should at least demonstrate what happens with Adam. You make a very good point about even if a person were to K&WR that he would not be beyond forgiveness. However, I can still say that in my observation no human ever K&WRG. And I am talking about normal humans, not ones in a figurative story with characteristics that are not human.

But, like I said, you two have asked enough times, I guess I should give in.

Are you like David, that you never think of someone else in a negative way? Thinking negatively of someone is not intentional, it is a triggered reaction. No one is “out to condemn”, condemnation is an automatic function of the conscience. When someone threatens our security or breaks our rules, our minds think negatively toward them, we hold something against them.

Are you saying that you never have such a triggered reaction? Oh, but you must experience guilt sometimes, right? If a person can feel guilt, a triggered negative reaction to oneself, resulting in self-resentment, then one can certainly feel that same negativity toward someone else. It is a natural reaction, T.E. We are called to forgive those whom which we have a negative feeling, those who trespass against us. Otherwise, who do we forgive?

Hmmm. Did I say that there were such people on this thread? I don’t remember. However, I have sensed a bit of negativity toward me, and others noted it also in posts 495 and 508. Accusations are blame, blame is negativity. It depends on the delivery, though. There is no reason to get into it now. I am not hearing any negativity in your voice in this post I am responding to of yours.

So I can show you why Adam is not an applicable example. For starters, though, can you put yourself in Eve’s and Adam’s shoes? Could you have done what they did?

I thank you for your response.

I reject your observation based on the fact that knowledge and willfulness of others is not visible for you to observe. You have no rational basis to claim that no one K&W sins (rejects God).

 

[OneSheep]

Why does feeling negatively equal demonizing? All these people are persons, who God desires to be in Heaven. How can I demonize them?

Hi David,

The point is that “condemnation”, “demonization”, “dehumanization” and “labeling evil” all have the same root, that there is some negative feeling/thought toward the person. I am not using the words in a specific way. The words are loosely interchangeable. Feel free to disagree with such “looseness” but that is not the point of this thread. The point I was making was the same as Fr. Hurd and Fr. Cantalmessa, we sometimes think negatively about some people, we hold things against people, but God’s mind is different.

So, do you not ever feel negatively toward anyone?

I do. The negativity is triggered in the mind, simultaneously with resentment and anger. When I sense my negative thoughts and feelings toward someone, I know that it is time to understand and forgive. Can you relate to that?

They chose to.

Why did Adam and Eve choose to disobey? Please explain: for instance, what did they want?

Why not?

Reason cannot prevent blindness because blindness is a function of a more primitive part of the brain. Blindness is connected with emotion, which is much quicker than the “reason” part of the brain. Studies have proven this in showing that when a person sees something that triggers an emotion, the emotional part of the mind is active long before the reasoning part of the mind can evaluate. Such quickness is a gift from God, David, when fight or flight is necessary, reasoning could subtract crucial seconds. Of course, the choices to behave can be controlled, always, but those choices can be heavily influenced by blindness. In addition, once the mind is not caught up in emotion, and especially after the periods of “want” or “hate” (for example) go away, the “push” coming from that part of the mind immediately goes away. The human stands over his error, at times, and exclaims “What was I thinking?”. He condemns his behavior, and it is extremely difficult for him to reenter his former mindset without the emotions that compromised his thinking. Hopefully, guilt (self-condemnation) has taken over if the behavior was harmful.

Why is a complete explanation required?

An explanation only needs to explain why a person did what they did, all the relevant information. That is what I mean by “complete”.

I reject your observation based on the fact that knowledge and willfulness of others is not visible for you to observe. You have no rational basis to claim that no one K&W sins (rejects God).

Once one has covered all the possible scenarios of knowledge and willfulness, then, yes, the conclusion is rational. So, if you would like to present a scenario that shows something different, I may modify or change my conclusion. I am not “all-knowing” about what can happen. My conclusion is based on my own experiences and what I have learned from others, which is the basis for any person’s conclusions. It is rational, but to say that I am all-knowing would be irrational.

Thanks, David! Please try to be more thorough in your answers about Adam, it would make it go much faster!

 

[davidv]

Hi David,

The point is that “condemnation”, “demonization”, “dehumanization” and “labeling evil” all have the same root, that there is some negative feeling/thought toward the person. I am not using the words in a specific way. The words are loosely interchangeable. Feel free to disagree with such “looseness” but that is not the point of this thread. The point I was making was the same as Fr. Hurd and Fr. Cantalmessa, we sometimes think negatively about some people, we hold things against people, but God’s mind is different.

So, do you not ever feel negatively toward anyone?

I do. The negativity is triggered in the mind, simultaneously with resentment and anger. When I sense my negative thoughts and feelings toward someone, I know that it is time to understand and forgive. Can you relate to that?

Why did Adam and Eve choose to disobey? Please explain: for instance, what did they want?

Reason cannot prevent blindness because blindness is a function of a more primitive part of the brain. Blindness is connected with emotion, which is much quicker than the “reason” part of the brain. Studies have proven this in showing that when a person sees something that triggers an emotion, the emotional part of the mind is active long before the reasoning part of the mind can evaluate. Such quickness is a gift from God, David, when fight or flight is necessary, reasoning could subtract crucial seconds. Of course, the choices to behave can be controlled, always, but those choices can be heavily influenced by blindness. In addition, once the mind is not caught up in emotion, and especially after the periods of “want” or “hate” (for example) go away, the “push” coming from that part of the mind immediately goes away. The human stands over his error, at times, and exclaims “What was I thinking?”. He condemns his behavior, and it is extremely difficult for him to reenter his former mindset without the emotions that compromised his thinking. Hopefully, guilt (self-condemnation) has taken over if the behavior was harmful.

An explanation only needs to explain why a person did what they did, all the relevant information. That is what I mean by “complete”.

Once one has covered all the possible scenarios of knowledge and willfulness, then, yes, the conclusion is rational. So, if you would like to present a scenario that shows something different, I may modify or change my conclusion. I am not “all-knowing” about what can happen. My conclusion is based on my own experiences and what I have learned from others, which is the basis for any person’s conclusions. It is rational, but to say that I am all-knowing would be irrational.

Thanks, David! Please try to be more thorough in your answers about Adam, it would make it go much faster!

How do you know how thorough I am? I am beginning to think you are making things up just to be contrary, because you are “not using the words in a specific way”. Except for the lurkers, it appears efforts to explain myself and to get you to explain yourself have been in vain. So until key points rebutting your assertions are addressed, I will not be answering any of the questions above.

Edit: Your post above evoked negativity. However I won’t call your evil nor demonize you for doing so.

 

[simpleas]

Hi Onesheep

I was thinking on Adam and Eve with the infused knowledge, maybe it doesn’t matter if they had infused knowledge.
Could Adam and Eve have felt negatively toward God for telling them they could not eat from the tree of knowledge? I usually think no, because they had no inclination to feel that way. But then, if they were only human, in the sense they had a soul, but were not divine, then maybe human nature kicked in and it was too hard to resist that temptation to learn more, even though they knew they shouldn’t. That sounds more like the humans I know.

Just some thoughts.

 

[OneSheep]

Hi Onesheep

I was thinking on Adam and Eve with the infused knowledge, maybe it doesn’t matter if they had infused knowledge.
Could Adam and Eve have felt negatively toward God for telling them they could not eat from the tree of knowledge? I usually think no, because they had no inclination to feel that way. But then, if they were only human, in the sense they had a soul, but were not divine, then maybe human nature kicked in and it was too hard to resist that temptation to learn more, even though they knew they shouldn’t. That sounds more like the humans I know.

Just some thoughts.

Hi Simpleas,

You bring up a good point. Since it is part of our human nature to want freedom, and A&E could do basically anything, the one thing that they could not do would have been a big focus of their attention, the one exception to their complete autonomy and freedom. We are supposed to look at the story and say “They had everything, couldn’t the fools resist!”. Then, add the layer of possibly-beneficial mystery (Knowledge!) to the eating of the fruit, and the temptation becomes very strong - for a normal human, and since the normal human becomes blinded by desire (blinded to those issues that stand in the way of the desired object) A&E’s eating of the fruit is a perfectly normal thing for people to do.

On the other hand, let’s say that God had infused in Adam and Eve the knowledge that they would have billions of children. In addition, they would have great love for those children, more than they love each other, possibly. Indeed, the knowledge would be infused in a way that they cared for nothing more than the well-being of all those future children. If that were the case, their choice to eat the fruit would have been quite contrary to human nature; their desire to protect their children from any harm whatsoever would override any other desire.

Do you see that the knowledge of the consequence of their action (impact on their children) is very relevant information?

After all, many people are willing to risk their lives in the pursuit of knowledge. However, would they be willing to risk the well-being of their loved ones for the pursuit of knowledge? No, that is not the way normal humans behave in ordinary circumstances.

Thanks for your thoughts. Nice to hear from you.

 

[simpleas]

Hi Simpleas,

You bring up a good point. Since it is part of our human nature to want freedom, and A&E could do basically anything, the one thing that they could not do would have been a big focus of their attention, the one exception to their complete autonomy and freedom. We are supposed to look at the story and say “They had everything, couldn’t the fools resist!”. Then, add the layer of possibly-beneficial mystery (Knowledge!) to the eating of the fruit, and the temptation becomes very strong - for a normal human, and since the normal human becomes blinded by desire (blinded to those issues that stand in the way of the desired object) A&E’s eating of the fruit is a perfectly normal thing for people to do.

On the other hand, let’s say that God had infused in Adam and Eve the knowledge that they would have billions of children. In addition, they would have great love for those children, more than they love each other, possibly. Indeed, the knowledge would be infused in a way that they cared for nothing more than the well-being of all those future children. If that were the case, their choice to eat the fruit would have been quite contrary to human nature; their desire to protect their children from any harm whatsoever would override any other desire.

Do you see that the knowledge of the consequence of their action (impact on their children) is very relevant information?

After all, many people are willing to risk their lives in the pursuit of knowledge. However, would they be willing to risk the well-being of their loved ones for the pursuit of knowledge? No, that is not the way normal humans behave in ordinary circumstances.

Thanks for your thoughts. Nice to hear from you.

Do you see that the knowledge of the consequence of their action (impact on their children) is very relevant information?

If they were blinded by the desire for knowledge, then their children’s wellbeing wasn’t at the forefront of their mind. But this to me can only be said of humans born after the fall, the fallen nature that came about due to the original sin.
If we now, are able to put another before ourself and our desires, why not they that had no fallen nature? Obviously we are not perfect, and neither were A&E, but they still had to learn the hard way.
Thanks.

 

[OneSheep]

If they were blinded by the desire for knowledge, then their children’s wellbeing wasn’t at the forefront of their mind. But this to me can only be said of humans born after the fall, the fallen nature that came about due to the original sin.
If we now, are able to put another before ourself and our desires, why not they that had no fallen nature? Obviously we are not perfect, and neither were A&E, but they still had to learn the hard way.
Thanks.

It boggle my mind, Simpleas, that I was pushed so hard by others to discuss the example of Adam, and where are they now? Did they give up trying to answer my questions?

And here you have stepped in; I hope that they are still reading!

Yes, a normal person could even be so blind as to not have their own children in the forefront of their mind when desire has so enslaved them. (Actually, that would only be the desperate blindness of an addict, right? That’s pretty severe blindness.)

So, yes, if Adam and Eve had an “infused knowledge”, that included knowing that their actions would adversely effect the well-being of their billions of wonderful children, then why would they choose to give into their desire?

Thanks.

 

[OneSheep]

Sorry I missed this post, David!

How do you know how thorough I am? I am beginning to think you are making things up just to be contrary, because you are “not using the words in a specific way”.

David, please look at your post 722. Your answers are very short, without explanation. I am saying “thorough” would involve explanation.

Except for the lurkers, it appears efforts to explain myself and to get you to explain yourself have been in vain.

David, the title of this thread is “Does any human knowingly and willingly reject God?”. I am looking for examples of such an occurrence, as I observe that it does not happen. If you cannot provide an example of a person K&WRG, then that in itself only adds more evidence to my conclusion.

So here is my “explaining myself”: We cannot find an example of a person k&WRG, so it must not occur. This is the “explanation” I have been giving all along. If you disagree with my assessment, provide an example and back it up. After much time, I agreed to finally address Adam, and now you are backing out? I hope not.

So until key points rebutting your assertions are addressed, I will not be answering any of the questions above.

So, what more “key points” are you looking for that I did not address above?

Edit: Your post above evoked negativity. However I won’t call your evil nor demonize you for doing so.

Aha! You are capable of feeling negativity! So, you are human, like I am. Please know that I did not intend to hurt you, anger you, or demean you in any way, and I apologize for anything that communicated less than complete respect. You are a great person, David, and I value your energy and persistence. If you have not already forgiven me, then I ask for your forgiveness.

So hey, we got started on Adam, which is what you wanted!

Why did Adam and Eve choose to disobey? Please explain: for instance, what did they want?

Thanks, David. Answer the questions, and we can assertain if Adam K&WRG. Feel free to comment on my conversation with Simpleas.

 

[davidv]

Sorry I missed this post, David!

David, please look at your post 722. Your answers are very short, without explanation. I am saying “thorough” would involve explanation.

David, the title of this thread is “Does any human knowingly and willingly reject God?”. I am looking for examples of such an occurrence, as I observe that it does not happen. If you cannot provide an example of a person K&WRG, then that in itself only adds more evidence to my conclusion.

So here is my “explaining myself”: We cannot find an example of a person k&WRG, so it must not occur. This is the “explanation” I have been giving all along. If you disagree with my assessment, provide an example and back it up. After much time, I agreed to finally address Adam, and now you are backing out? I hope not.

So, what more “key points” are you looking for that I did not address above?

1. What knowledge was Adam missing and why does this missing knowledge mean he could not reject God knowingly?
2. What freedom of will was Adam lacking that he did not reject God willingly?

Aha! You are capable of feeling negativity! So, you are human, like I am. Please know that I did not intend to hurt you, anger you, or demean you in any way, and I apologize for anything that communicated less than complete respect. You are a great person, David, and I value your energy and persistence. If you have not already forgiven me, then I ask for your forgiveness.

So hey, we got started on Adam, which is what you wanted!

Why did Adam and Eve choose to disobey? Please explain: for instance, what did they want?

Thanks, David. Answer the questions, and we can assertain if Adam K&WRG. Feel free to comment on my conversation with Simpleas.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . efforts to explain myself and to get you to explain yourself have been in vain. So until key points rebutting your assertions are addressed, I will not be answering any of the questions above. . .

As has everyone else, myself included,
simply stopped responding to the gibberish
that comes of carving people up
into pieces - perceptions, emotions, motivations, understandings and action,
neglecting the whole person,
who is in relation to God and his neighbour,
and who as such, can accept or reject love.

 

[OneSheep]

1. What knowledge was Adam missing and why does this missing knowledge mean he could not reject God knowingly?

Hi David,

There could have been many things that A&E did not know, any and every one of these could have changed their decision:

1. Knowing that they would have billions of children that they would love immensely and wish to protect from any harm whatsoever.
2. Knowing that their action would cause them (the children) harm.
3. Knowing the exact consequences of that harm.
4. Knowing that the tree of knowledge did not give them personally a net benefit.
5. Knowing that the knowledge would not make them “like the gods” in any beneficial way.
6. Knowing that their own desire for knowledge was compromising their rational thinking.
7. Knowing that their desire for autonomy (resistance to authority) could have compromised their rational thinking.
8. Knowing that God was present at the moment of their doubt about the consequences they heard of eating of the fruit, ready to answer and wanting them to ask if what He meant by “truly die”, and if He was serious.

Eight is enough for now; I can come up with more if you like, once we address these. Knowledge of each and every one of these would influence their decision. Numbers 5-8 would involve blindness.

1. What freedom of will was Adam lacking that he did not reject God willingly?

When the choices that we know are limited, or we have limited knowledge about the choices we know, then our freedom is also limited. An ignorant person who thinks he has no choice but to fight when someone disrespects him is not free, he is encumbered by his own lack of knowledge even though he is “free” to also refrain from fighting. Given those two choices alone, fighting might seem to be the best choice. However, if he knew the benefits of forgiveness and reconciling differences in a different way, he would be a freer person.

In addition, our appetites have a way of commandeering our will. When rational, we will to follow God, but our desires can affect our will in such a way that the object of our desire become more important (see no. 6 above).

Now, I was compliant enough to answer your question even though you did not answer mine. Could you be so kind to answer mine now?

Here they are again:

Why did Adam and Eve choose to disobey? Please explain: for instance, what did they want?

Thanks for your response.