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OneSheep
Guest
Great question! I gotta run too, sorry. Get back to you on that. You are the third person to bring it up, so you could search it, but I have a more specific response for you.
- Status
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simpleas
Guest
No time limit, do I need one?Connect the dots? Yes, that way the dots connect. Otherwise, like I said, either God is cruel for not telling Adam all he needed to know or Adam is inhuman for doing something that adversely effects his own children.
Yes, if Adam was perfect, he would not have doubted God.
The whole concept of original sin is based on the idea that we are in a bad way and it is all our fault (represented by A&E). It’s like we were barely created, and as a species we are compelled to feel guilty about being human for all history. This is not what God had in mind, not even in the period B.C.
When you can make sense out of A&E having such supernatural control but still defying God and ruining things for their children, please let me know. Have you given yourself a time limit? It is simply illogical.
Humans can be perfect, simpleas! We don’t need to have an Adam and Eve messing everything up for humanity. We are not so “wayward”! We are a work-in-progress, and that progress now comes in the form of self-awareness. God didn’t make junk when he made A&E, and He still doesn’t make junk. Can you see what I am saying with this thread? When we understand the human, we can see his/her beauty. That’s right. Humanity, as is, is beautiful. Can you see?
So, then, give God the benefit of the doubt!He made a wonderful creature, and is still making us. He did not create with the intent to immediately take away life and grace. That makes no sense, and come to think of it, the suggestion that He did is an accusation, right? It’s amazing to put things into perspective.
Thanks, simpleas. Like I said, if you can make sense of it, let me know. What makes sense as children falls apart as we become more knowledgeable about what love is, and what it is not.
God Bless.
Well no one says God took away grace and life, they say it was Adam and Eve who lost the gifts through their own free will.
Blessings to you also.
D
davidv
Guest
Yes, if Adam was perfect, he would not have doubted God.
**The whole concept of original sin is based on the idea that we are in a bad way and it is all our fault (represented by A&E). **It’s like we were barely created, and as a species we are compelled to feel guilty about being human for all history. This is not what God had in mind, not even in the period B.C.
When you can make sense out of A&E having such supernatural control but still defying God and ruining things for their children, please let me know. Have you given yourself a time limit? It is simply illogical.
Humans can be perfect, simpleas! We don’t need to have an Adam and Eve messing everything up for humanity. We are not so “wayward”! We are a work-in-progress, and that progress now comes in the form of self-awareness. God didn’t make junk when he made A&E, and He still doesn’t make junk. Can you see what I am saying with this thread? When we understand the human, we can see his/her beauty. That’s right. Humanity, as is, is beautiful. Can you see?
So, then, give God the benefit of the doubt!
Thanks, simpleas. Like I said, if you can make sense of it, let me know. What makes sense as children falls apart as we become more knowledgeable about what love is, and what it is not.
God Bless.
, not a concept.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Hmmm. It sounds like you do not share my “skepticism of judgement” Yes, this does continue the theme on the other thread. We humans get a few things worked out, like “I am so much smarter now about this than I was before.” and then we think that we are in possession of full objectivity and of course, all the parameters and knowledge.
How about my take on reality of human judgment, which if we were to tackle a case together, you would surely come to share?
You see, it is no accident that the Bible uses “sheep” and “flock” to refer to humans, when they could have used the words “cattle” and “herd”. Have you ever dealt with sheep? They are incredibly unintelligent creatures.
Perhaps the difference in our experience of intellect/judgement is that I once (or twice, maybe) came upon something so profound that I realized that I was on the precipice of an enormous canyon of knowing. It was exposure to something “out of the box”, when the box is our own tiny scope of the cosmos. It was like I had perhaps come close to touching the toe of God, metaphorically speaking. Have you not had such a humbling exerience? We know almost nothing! My “skeptism” does not come from a position of seeing the human as defective, it comes from an experience of humiliation after having the slightest thought that I was “in the know”.
Some day, find a sheep, grab ahold of its face, and look it in the eyes. What is to be seen? Stupidity, for sure. Innocence. Love. Beauty. This is the way God looks at us. We aren’t very smart, P.C., but we are working on it. Our looking at sheep is a metaphor for God looking at us. You can’t help but love sheep if you work with them, all of them.
Yes, we are so stupid that we cannot “knowingly” accept God either, using the same criteria. But remember, most of what I am talking about has to do with intent. Whether a person rejects or accepts God, the* intent* the will is always on the side of acceptance… What I am saying is that even those who appear to reject God are actually accepting God at some level, subconsciously. Yes, the definition of God (who cannot be positively defined with much confidence) would have to be more broadly defined. People accept Love, always, when they understand. We are inclined to love.
And in that sense, people always accept God, because at some level everyone knows love.
This does diverge from the intent of my thread, I am trying to encourage understanding of those we generally resent. Most of us here don’t resent people who accept God.
Question for you: Does the Traditionalist Catholic knowingly and willingly reject what you see as truth?
And, did you want to address Adam, Judas, or any other person in modern day or history with less “skepticism of judgment”? We could try. Perhaps my low estimation of human intellectual capacity is unfounded…
Thanks for your response.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Hi!
No time limit necessary. You’ll need more than a lifetime, though.
Yes, they say that is man to blame for all of our problems, death, etc. But look at this, do you not see from Genesis that God had something to do with loss of the gifts?
Genesis 3:
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
God in the story did not take away grace and life? So, let me present an option on this where God does not take away grace and life.
God (for example) says, "behold, now the man has a conscience, he knows which behaviors are good and which are bad, just like I want him to know. Yet he thinks that I am punishing him for a disobedience, he accuses me of jealousy and wrath. He thinks death is his fault, as well as his toil of the ground to survive. Well, I knew he would think these things. Of course I love and forgive him, but I will give him a few thousand years to believe these things about me because with such belief he is more obedient, which serves his tribe. He must help his tribe to survive! He must comply with the tribal leadership.
“After a few thousand years, when the tribal instincts I gave the human and his incorrect view of me no longer serves him, but actually makes things worse, I will come and set him straight. I will show him that I have nothing but infinite love and forgiveness for him, that physical death is not a punishment at all, and that I have a wonderful life in store for him after he no longer walks the Earth. If they truly believe and follow my Son, they will know that I love them without limit.”.
Does the alternative I gave above better communicate that God does not take away grace and life? Do those words come closer to who you know in your prayer life?
All speculation, of course.
As always, love and peace.
OneSheep
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simpleas
Guest
Yes, but the problem is, according to Genesis God did not want man to know good and evil, at least at the point in creation. When man disobeyed the command he knows good and evil, but it’s not right that he can live forever as a human being, able to commit evil deeds and so God cuts him off from the tree of life and garden.Hi!
No time limit necessary. You’ll need more than a lifetime, though.
Yes, they say that is man to blame for all of our problems, death, etc. But look at this, do you not see from Genesis that God had something to do with loss of the gifts?
Genesis 3:
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
God in the story did not take away grace and life? So, let me present an option on this where God does not take away grace and life.
God (for example) says, "behold, now the man has a conscience, he knows which behaviors are good and which are bad, just like I want him to know. Yet he thinks that I am punishing him for a disobedience, he accuses me of jealousy and wrath. He thinks death is his fault, as well as his toil of the ground to survive. Well, I knew he would think these things. Of course I love and forgive him, but I will give him a few thousand years to believe these things about me because with such belief he is more obedient, which serves his tribe. He must help his tribe to survive! He must comply with the tribal leadership.
“After a few thousand years, when the tribal instincts I gave the human and his incorrect view of me no longer serves him, but actually makes things worse, I will come and set him straight. I will show him that I have nothing but infinite love and forgiveness for him, that physical death is not a punishment at all, and that I have a wonderful life in store for him after he no longer walks the Earth. If they truly believe and follow my Son, they will know that I love them without limit.”.
Does the alternative I gave above better communicate that God does not take away grace and life? Do those words come closer to who you know in your prayer life?
All speculation, of course.
As always, love and peace.
OneSheep
I do think that the Love and Grace of God is always there, even when we don’t wish to seek it, or are afraid to seek it, but it is us that has to seek it in order to know it.
If it is us that changes our view of God, because God does not change, that maybe why the creation story and fall alters in different peoples views.
There are various interpretations of what happened in this story, maybe they are all right according to the century we live in.
Maybe Adam and Eve were just afraid to ask God, thinking they could go it alone, just as we do at times in our lives. That would make them normal humans, not yet fully divine.
Have a nice day
P
PumpkinCookie
Guest
There is no possible example I could give you that you couldn’t undermine with your skeptical view of judgment. Seriously, there is no way, given your methodology, anyone at all could knowingly and willingly reject God. The problem is, you are hoist by your own petard in the sense that your skepticism undermines…every kind of judgment whatsoever. There is simply no way to know if anyone is a sinner or a saint, or in between. We’re just too ignorant and feeble-minded. There is no reason to suppose anyone ever commits a sin or exercises charity. What you are proposing is a radical agnosticism of morality. The sacrament of penance makes absolutely no sense, given your suppositions. That is fine, I can sympathize with that. The problem is, you can’t also claim to believe in saints/penance. Ironically, today is “All Saints Day.” I suppose you think this is a totally misguided holiday? I agree, but for very different reasons of course!Hmmm. It sounds like you do not share my “skepticism of judgement” Yes, this does continue the theme on the other thread. We humans get a few things worked out, like “I am so much smarter now about this than I was before.” and then we think that we are in possession of full objectivity and of course, all the parameters and knowledge.
How about my take on reality of human judgment, which if we were to tackle a case together, you would surely come to share?
You see, it is no accident that the Bible uses “sheep” and “flock” to refer to humans, when they could have used the words “cattle” and “herd”. Have you ever dealt with sheep? They are incredibly unintelligent creatures.
Perhaps the difference in our experience of intellect/judgement is that I once (or twice, maybe) came upon something so profound that I realized that I was on the precipice of an enormous canyon of knowing. It was exposure to something “out of the box”, when the box is our own tiny scope of the cosmos. It was like I had perhaps come close to touching the toe of God, metaphorically speaking. Have you not had such a humbling exerience? We know almost nothing! My “skeptism” does not come from a position of seeing the human as defective, it comes from an experience of humiliation after having the slightest thought that I was “in the know”.
Some day, find a sheep, grab ahold of its face, and look it in the eyes. What is to be seen? Stupidity, for sure. Innocence. Love. Beauty. This is the way God looks at us. We aren’t very smart, P.C., but we are working on it. Our looking at sheep is a metaphor for God looking at us. You can’t help but love sheep if you work with them, all of them.
Yes, we are so stupid that we cannot “knowingly” accept God either, using the same criteria. But remember, most of what I am talking about has to do with intent. Whether a person rejects or accepts God, the* intent* the will is always on the side of acceptance… What I am saying is that even those who appear to reject God are actually accepting God at some level, subconsciously. Yes, the definition of God (who cannot be positively defined with much confidence) would have to be more broadly defined. People accept Love, always, when they understand. We are inclined to love.
And in that sense, people always accept God, because at some level everyone knows love.
This does diverge from the intent of my thread, I am trying to encourage understanding of those we generally resent. Most of us here don’t resent people who accept God.
Question for you: Does the Traditionalist Catholic knowingly and willingly reject what you see as truth?
And, did you want to address Adam, Judas, or any other person in modern day or history with less “skepticism of judgment”? We could try. Perhaps my low estimation of human intellectual capacity is unfounded…
Thanks for your response.
Regarding your specific question, if I grant your anthropology and methodology, really the only appropriate response is:
Don’t mean to poke fun, just “trying on” your ideas. No reason to really think about anything actually. May as well just enjoy myself since I’m so dumb that there is nothing to worry about and I can’t be blamed or praised for anything whatsoever. You know, it’s funny. As a Catholic, I often used to think animals were better off than humans. Though they had limited lifespans, at least they weren’t saddled with the responsibility of morality. They just enjoyed themselves as much as possible then died! Sounded like a much better deal. Given your methodology and anthropology, it seems you suppose this is precisely our situation. Am I wrong? Can it not be reduced to this? Why or why not?
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opusAquinas
Guest
Yes when you sin venially or mortally - you are rejecting God.
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OneSheep
Guest
Hello opusAquinas,
So, could we look into an example of such a sin, and see if the rejection is Knowingly and Willingly occurring?
Thanks.
O
OneSheep
Guest
If you mean that there is no quality of goodness or badness that can be attached to anyone, that is part of it, but that is not exactly what I am trying to communicate. I am saying that the value of each and every one of us is infinite, all beautiful in the eyes of our Creator. It is a matter of breaking away from something linear and replacing it with a different model.
Is it a little unnerving to look at all humanity in such a way? It goes against our conscience. We want to cling to something; where do I fit in then? What is good, what is bad? Where is the rulebook?
Christ calls us to Love, all the rules are based in love. A morality based on evaluation is natural and good, but there is a letting go that can take place. This letting go does not eliminate the reality that there are people that we cannot trust, and that there are people we can look to as models of what it means to love.
Of course the sacrament of reconciliation makes sense! People need to share their guilt with someone, and it is also comforting to hear of God’s forgiveness from someone we respect. A sacrament is a sign; a sign of something that has already happened, will happen in the future, or is happening in the moment.
This is a wonderful holiday. I and a few others spoke to a group about the saints today. I focused on St. Francis and St. Therese of Liseux. Perhaps you are reading too much into my words?
Dang, the sheep has its eyes closed. You have to look into their eyes, then you can truly see the innocence and lack of intelligence. Have you never been humbled as I have?
.
Now you are starting to get it. Fr. Richard Rohr talks about the “false self”. Take a look at it, take a good hard look at it and realize that there is something much deeper. I think you would like Fr. Rohr’s viewpoint alot, but your inner traditionalist might cringe.
Yes, the false self depends on the carrot and the stick; we have all the science of neurotransmission and brain activity to back it up. When we do good things, we get all the same feedback from the brain as winning a game. When we do bad, we feel guilty; we get all the downers. It’s all rather robotic.
We can transcend our nature, but it is impossible to throw it away. That is part of the beauty of it! Morality is based on our conscience, and the conscience remains active regardless how aware we are, regardless of how obsolete it becomes for the person guided by love. Some other species (mostly higher apes) have a rudimentary conscience, and there is no way that they have the capacity to transcend it. So, for example, I can do something “good” and get a shot of happy, and I can witness an evil act and get flooded with anger and resentment, blown around like a candle in the wind. The difference is that I can return to a different place, a place where my being is not the shot of happy or the flood of negative. It happens through forgiveness and prayer.
The being returned to is something deeper, something found in meditation, a quiet.
Does that communicate a departure from engaging the world itself? Yet, do you get the impression that is what I am doing as I am active here on the CAF?
What are we going to do about the selfishness and arrogance, the “enemies of mankind”?
Thanks for your response and thanks for digging up that sheep. Please, poke fun, criticize, etc. It’s a pleasure to be challenged from a different direction.
O
opusAquinas
Guest
Ok the Ten Commandments or the fruit of the tree of good and evil. Pride and narcissism leads people to reject God. You want to understand the “mindset” but that’s like wanting to know what being a psychopath feels like. Don’t ask for the temptation because there are some people who struggle with hating God. You must live in a bubble I’ve seen many people who love doing evil from hatred of God and just love in general. We are dealing with powers and principalities.
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
Hi One Sheep,
It’s been a while. I miss old friends!
I’m wondering if you get some kind of points for most posts or pages, or whatever. I’m still learning. Got kicked off a thread, twice!, and I don’t really know what for. Will not be checking into that one again. I didn’t willingly and knowingly write anything wrong…But the moderator wasn’t as understanding as you are.
Anyway, just dropped in to say hello. I see Pumpkin Cookie is trying the reverse angle, but you and I know that won’t work either.
Oh. And I’m in a question kind of mood this week. I know how you hate that I concentrate on heaven and hell (which actually I don’t, but sometimes you don’t HEAR) - but DID we ever discuss hell? I mean, does it exist? Is anyone going there? Who?
It would be nice if you put your idea all together in a way we could all understand. Is it as simple as that we’re all saved? I mean both here on earth and in the afterlife - after all, the kingdom does start here.
God bless
Fran
It’s been a while. I miss old friends!
I’m wondering if you get some kind of points for most posts or pages, or whatever. I’m still learning. Got kicked off a thread, twice!, and I don’t really know what for. Will not be checking into that one again. I didn’t willingly and knowingly write anything wrong…But the moderator wasn’t as understanding as you are.
Anyway, just dropped in to say hello. I see Pumpkin Cookie is trying the reverse angle, but you and I know that won’t work either.
Oh. And I’m in a question kind of mood this week. I know how you hate that I concentrate on heaven and hell (which actually I don’t, but sometimes you don’t HEAR) - but DID we ever discuss hell? I mean, does it exist? Is anyone going there? Who?
It would be nice if you put your idea all together in a way we could all understand. Is it as simple as that we’re all saved? I mean both here on earth and in the afterlife - after all, the kingdom does start here.
God bless
Fran
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
Powers and principalities. Yes. I’ve been here since July and that’s the first I’ve heard of that. Not that I know every thread - but it is such an important statement.
A priest told me a couple of years ago that he’s been asked to “unbaptize” people. Which, of course, isn’t possible. But you’re right that some really hate God and are not just neutral, some struggle - what a mix…
Fran
O
OneSheep
Guest
Good Morning, opusAquinas
So, can you come up with a specific scenario, a specific example to scrutinize?
So, perhaps you can come up with a specific example or scenario of someone K&WRG. I am open-minded about the possibility of addressing an example I never thought of. Give it a try!
Thanks.
I’m with you on the fact that rejection of God happens. But let’s look at a few NT cases of “knowingly”. As Jesus was crucified, and as St. Stephen was being murdered, they said “forgive them, for they know not what they do.” St. Paul reflected on his past, and knew that the Father forgave him for persecuting Christians because he did not know what he was doing. So, I am challenging the mindset that these cases are rare, and I am suggesting that knowing and willing rejection of God is never the case, at least that is my observation when I put the cases to some scrutiny.
So, can you come up with a specific scenario, a specific example to scrutinize?
We can know what it feels like to be a psychopath to some degree. When we hate, our empathy is automatically blocked. So if we can imagine the empathy blockage without the accompanying emotion of hatred or anger, then we have psychopathy. Psychopaths are people with a severe dysfunction in the part of the mind that has to do with empathy. They do not feel others’ pain. “Psychopaths”, knowing little to nothing of the value of other people, are far from being “knowing”. Do you see what I mean?
Hatred immediately causes blindness. People who hate are blind to the value of those they hate, just as those who crucified Jesus. Do you see what I mean? As Jesus accurately stated, they don’t know what they are doing.
So, perhaps you can come up with a specific example or scenario of someone K&WRG. I am open-minded about the possibility of addressing an example I never thought of. Give it a try!
Thanks.
P
PumpkinCookie
Guest
Yes, the “letting go” of evaluation means we cannot distinguish between those we cannot trust and those who are models. Further, we cannot distinguish “good” and “bad” actions in our own minds. We have no reason to suppose we have ever done anything wrong or right. Conscience is a result of an adaptive “tribal” preservation response. It doesn’t speak about a higher reality or touch God’s laws, it is just a reflex like revulsion at certain smells or salivation at others.
People can share their guilt feelings with friends, co-workers, or psychologists if they are paranoid of exposure. Sacraments are meaningless, just physical motions signifying nothing (as far as we know). Supposedly, sacraments are only “effective” if a person is properly disposed, but it seems like you are saying no one could ever know if anyone is properly disposed.
I do not think we can know for sure if Francis or Therese were actually saints. You see, when we use that word “saint” it is always accompanied by a kind of admiration or feeling of “holiness” right? Could it be that our feelings are coloring our understanding of these people? We don’t know if the people in question actually knowingly and willingly accepted God. They were blinded by culture, family pressure, and mental illness; they couldn’t have known what they were doing! We can’t praise them or emulate them when they are acting from a place of ignorance and blindness right?
I have no idea sir! How can I possibly have any insight into humbling experiences you’ve had?
I’ve never heard of this person but I’ll do some research. How do you know I have an inner traditionalist? I don’t even know! I don’t know anything at all. I’m just a sheep.
Yes, our bodies function regularly and we are able to understand them with science. Does that mean we’re just robots? I thought you were making the case that we’re just animals, but now you seem to be moving to robots? How can you have all this fantastic knowledge if you don’t trust your own mind?
Or pharmaceuticals…Prozac, Xanax, and Valium can make us feel like the world is a place of nothing but goodness and innocence too.
This sooo explains the contemporary USA. Seems like every other person is on antidepressants. Why not? “Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so…or pills can too” - Dr. Hamlet.Arguing on the internet is not engaging with the world my friend. This place is an echo chamber of mental mbation, in fact it is quite hilarious to notice just how many threads are about actual mbation. It makes perfect sense.The being returned to is something deeper, something found in meditation, a quiet.
Does that communicate a departure from engaging the world itself? Yet, do you get the impression that is what I am doing as I am active here on the CAF?
What are we going to do about the selfishness and arrogance, the “enemies of mankind”?
Thanks for your response and thanks for digging up that sheep. Please, poke fun, criticize, etc. It’s a pleasure to be challenged from a different direction.
I’m ashamed to have used so much of my time like this, but I suppose I needed it. I came here because I have no intellectual peers in my life (except my wife) with whom to discuss anything interesting. It is lonely, but you have helped me realize that this forum is not a solution. Thank you!
According to you, there is no way we could know if there is any selfishness or arrogance. For all we know, everything is A-OK. Why worry? It’s all good friend. Baaaaaaaaaa
But seriously, best wishes. I’m ready to move on. It’s going to be hard to break this habit, but cold-turkey is the way to go based on my experience with other habits. I’ll read Rohr’s material as a substitute until the urge to navigate to this website subsides. Thank you so much, and I wish you nothing but happiness and goodness for your life, and for anyone reading this.
O
OneSheep
Guest
I’m sorry to hear that. Can you forgive the moderators? You’re a great person, Fran, don’t forget that.
So, here’s a little “heads up”. You mean no harm at all, but it is a little bit dangerous to talk about other posters in your posts. You did not do anything wrong above, but someone can get touchy about comments and report you.
Once upon a time (on a different forum, but still Christian), a poster made an outlandishly prejudicial statement about a whole nation of people. A poster wrote back saying something like “your statement could be construed as bearing false witness”. Well, the person who made the prejudiced comment did not like the words “false witness” and reported to the moderator that he had been insulted. The person who made the “false witness” statement received an infraction, and he appealed the infraction. The “appeal” was answered by the same moderator that issued the infraction! Pretty cool to be your own appellate judge, huh?
Anyway, the poster of the “false witness” comment contacted a founder of the forum itself. The founder was very understanding and empathetic, and said he would look into the problem, especially the appellate process and the refusal of the moderator to explain his actions, which is a free ticket to being completely unaccountable for ones’ actions. At the very least, a person being penalized and not being thoroughly counseled as to why they were penalized is an evil act, and should be contrary to a well-informed conscience. Surely that does not happen on this forum.
In the end, the founder wrote back to him saying “I cannot solve the problem, the problem is so ingrained that a complete overhaul of the system needs to take place”.
I hope that this forum is not so managed in a way that is contrary to the gospel. As you know, in the Gospel Jesus tells us to go directly to the person with whom we have a problem, and then bring a witness, and then go to a higher authority, etc. To have a person simply complain about someone else to an authority and the person gets penalized is contrary to the Gospel, and encourages irresponsibility, unaccountable action from moderators, and cowardice on the part of participants, and I have a hunch that the Bishops would agree with me on that.
I don’t know how the “points and posts” work.
I don’t hate it, Sis. It is just such an obsession for people, and obsessions are based in fear. Jesus call us to an eternal life, a freedom from fear, which is cast out by perfect love.
Does hell exist? Well, it makes sense that there is some place or condition in which people can choose to reject God. Does it ever happen? I can’t think of it happening if the human knows what he or she is doing. Is anyone going there? Sheesh, how should I know? The Church has never claimed any person is there, remember?
Yes, the kingdom starts here. Jesus talking about salvation meant achieving a perfection in Love, being free from our slavery. For example, are you enslaved by fear of hell?
Look at all the people who are terribly lonely, hungry, hurt, addicted, troubled, and suffering. Are they experiencing salvation? No. We are called to be part of their salvation, right?
Are we all going to heaven? Well, would a human K&W choose hell? I don’t see how it could happen, but one must remain open to the possibility.
As far as “putting my idea all together”, there is really only so much I can say. We together have to look from the same vantage point. For starters, have you forgiven everyone you have ever held the slightest bit against, without conditions stopping your forgiveness?
Thanks, Fran, you are wonderful. Come back any time.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Hmmm. You did get what I wrote. The conscience serves us in distinguishing good and bad action, but we can understand and forgive the perpetrator of bad action when we resent. We have reason to know we have done wrong or right by the result of our action. The “higher reality” is Love.
You seem a little frustrated, maybe? Sorry, I am not the best communicator.
Yes, they can share their guilt feelings with others, too. We can know if a person is “properly disposed” for the sacrament of marriage, for example, when they commit to love unconditionally their spouse. It’s going to depend on the individual, right?
Anyone we admire for their witness and expression of Love is a Saint, whether the Church says so or not, right? Of course our feelings are colored; we love. Are you saying that a person loves with an essential factor of ignorance or blindness? I think not, and neither am I. What I am saying is that people do evil with a essential factor of ignorance or blindness.
From my earlier post:
Yes, we are so stupid that we cannot “knowingly” accept God either, using the same criteria. But remember, most of what I am talking about has to do with intent. Whether a person rejects or accepts God, the intent, the will is always on the side of acceptance… What I am saying is that even those who appear to reject God are actually accepting God at some level, subconsciously. Yes, the definition of God (who cannot be positively defined with much confidence) would have to be more broadly defined. People accept Love, always, when they understand. We are inclined to love.
Look at people’s intent, P.C.
Have you had enough humbling experiences to realize that you don’t know all of the truth, that there is so much more to know? That is the question.
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I was poking fun. Did you see the smiley face? Yes, look into Fr. Rohr, he does a better job communicating a viewpoint.
I did not say that I don’t trust my mind, I am just a tad cautious. Animal behavior is very robotic. It is a lot of stimulus-response, just like people. People running around for wealth, status, sex, etc, people enslaved by hatred for others, they are just robots, not free. They are essentially as possessed as female animals in heat or squirrels gathering nuts.
Actions are good and bad, but intent is all good, that is my observation. You would have to look at your own life to verify that.Or pharmaceuticals…Prozac, Xanax, and Valium can make us feel like the world is a place of nothing but goodness and innocence too.
Continued…
O
OneSheep
Guest
Pumpkin Cookie:
Peace begins with forgiveness and reconciliation, seeing that there are no enemies, only people like you and me, yes, all somewhat blind and ignorant. We all know Love to some degree though, and this is from where we start!
Just because we are ignorant and sometimes blinded does not mean we know nothing.
A person we cannot trust, once we forgive, need not be seen as a bad person. Examine your own life, P.C. You have never been a bad person, never. You have been a good person who has been blinded, and done bad things because of that blindness, we all have. Desire for dominance and desire to serve the self can lead to blindness.
Shoot, you are leaving when it was starting to get more interesting?
P.C., what is selfishness? What is arrogance? They are words used to describe something negative we feel about human nature. And of course, we project selfishness and arrogance on our enemies and people we see doing great evil, it is human to do so. Can you see that peace begins with the individual? We must reconcile within before we can get the world to reconcile, or we see the world as full of enemies!
Peace begins with forgiveness and reconciliation, seeing that there are no enemies, only people like you and me, yes, all somewhat blind and ignorant. We all know Love to some degree though, and this is from where we start!
Just because we are ignorant and sometimes blinded does not mean we know nothing.
A person we cannot trust, once we forgive, need not be seen as a bad person. Examine your own life, P.C. You have never been a bad person, never. You have been a good person who has been blinded, and done bad things because of that blindness, we all have. Desire for dominance and desire to serve the self can lead to blindness.
I wish you the best. Sorry to see you go, but I understand. Thanks.
A
Aloysium
Guest
It is pricisely through self-examination that I know the opposite to be true.
Christianity has as it’s primary aim our reconciliation with God.
We alienate ourselves from God’s love through what we do.
We can act out of love, or not.
This defines the morality of an act, which has everything to do with its intent.
Who we are is brought into being by what we do, which is caused by an end we choose.
You may wish to stop looking at the behaviour and intent of others to find this truth in yourself.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Hi Aloysium,
We can be alienated from our own love of God, but God always loves and forgives us. Remember the words from Pope Francis?
I look at my past and see no bad intent. I see a lot of ignorance and blindness, but no bad intent. I do see love, and I see it in everyone else too.
Can you give an example of bad intent behind an action?
Thanks
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