Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[Aloysium]

Hi Aloysium,

We can be alienated from our own love of God, but God always loves and forgives us. Remember the words from Pope Francis?

I look at my past and see no bad intent. I see a lot of ignorance and blindness, but no bad intent. I do see love, and I see it in everyone else too.

Can you give an example of bad intent behind an action?

Thanks

Love is more than trying to sanitize one’s negative feelings.
While it does help oneself to be friendly, it does quite the opposite when it is but a passive-aggressive acting out.

We all here are in agreement that God loves us; in spite of our sinfulness, I would add.
I have read many words penned by Pope Francis. I fail to understand the point you are making.

Hearing that someone does not see any bad intent in himself troubles me.
I have seen the consequences of much evil done in this world by persons who saw themselves as guiltless…
I should add that the far more serious concern is that the person is disconnected from their conscience and hence their relationship with God.
If one cannot be themselves before God, without any excuses or rationalizations, they cannot repent.

There is no point repeating what has been stated and restated numerous times, simply to have it distorted as it passes through the grid of your belief system.

 

[opusAquinas]

Good Morning, opusAquinas

I’m with you on the fact that rejection of God happens. But let’s look at a few NT cases of “knowingly”. As Jesus was crucified, and as St. Stephen was being murdered, they said “forgive them, for they know not what they do.” St. Paul reflected on his past, and knew that the Father forgave him for persecuting Christians because he did not know what he was doing. So, I am challenging the mindset that these cases are rare, and I am suggesting that knowing and willing rejection of God is never the case, at least that is my observation when I put the cases to some scrutiny.

So, can you come up with a specific scenario, a specific example to scrutinize?

We can know what it feels like to be a psychopath to some degree. When we hate, our empathy is automatically blocked. So if we can imagine the empathy blockage without the accompanying emotion of hatred or anger, then we have psychopathy. Psychopaths are people with a severe dysfunction in the part of the mind that has to do with empathy. They do not feel others’ pain. “Psychopaths”, knowing little to nothing of the value of other people, are far from being “knowing”. Do you see what I mean?

Hatred immediately causes blindness. People who hate are blind to the value of those they hate, just as those who crucified Jesus. Do you see what I mean? As Jesus accurately stated, they don’t know what they are doing.

So, perhaps you can come up with a specific example or scenario of someone K&WRG. I am open-minded about the possibility of addressing an example I never thought of. Give it a try!

Thanks.

Look, there are narcissists. They love themselves and hate others.

When Jesus asks to forgive those who do not understand - He means give them the grace of conversion. Some people hate Jesus Christ. Some people hate the beatitudes. You want to know what it feels like to be the devil - you’re asking for trouble.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I’m sorry to hear that. Can you forgive the moderators? You’re a great person, Fran, don’t forget that.

So, here’s a little “heads up”. You mean no harm at all, but it is a little bit dangerous to talk about other posters in your posts. You did not do anything wrong above, but someone can get touchy about comments and report you.

Once upon a time (on a different forum, but still Christian), a poster made an outlandishly prejudicial statement about a whole nation of people. A poster wrote back saying something like “your statement could be construed as bearing false witness”. Well, the person who made the prejudiced comment did not like the words “false witness” and reported to the moderator that he had been insulted. The person who made the “false witness” statement received an infraction, and he appealed the infraction. The “appeal” was answered by the same moderator that issued the infraction! Pretty cool to be your own appellate judge, huh?

Anyway, the poster of the “false witness” comment contacted a founder of the forum itself. The founder was very understanding and empathetic, and said he would look into the problem, especially the appellate process and the refusal of the moderator to explain his actions, which is a free ticket to being completely unaccountable for ones’ actions. At the very least, a person being penalized and not being thoroughly counseled as to why they were penalized is an evil act, and should be contrary to a well-informed conscience. Surely that does not happen on this forum.

In the end, the founder wrote back to him saying “I cannot solve the problem, the problem is so ingrained that a complete overhaul of the system needs to take place”.

I hope that this forum is not so managed in a way that is contrary to the gospel. As you know, in the Gospel Jesus tells us to go directly to the person with whom we have a problem, and then bring a witness, and then go to a higher authority, etc. To have a person simply complain about someone else to an authority and the person gets penalized is contrary to the Gospel, and encourages irresponsibility, unaccountable action from moderators, and cowardice on the part of participants, and I have a hunch that the Bishops would agree with me on that.

I don’t know how the “points and posts” work.

I don’t hate it, Sis. It is just such an obsession for people, and obsessions are based in fear. Jesus call us to an eternal life, a freedom from fear, which is cast out by perfect love.

Does hell exist? Well, it makes sense that there is some place or condition in which people can choose to reject God. Does it ever happen? I can’t think of it happening if the human knows what he or she is doing. Sheesh, how should I know? The Church has never claimed any person is there, remember?

Yes, the kingdom starts here. Jesus talking about salvation meant achieving a perfection in Love, being free from our slavery. For example, are you enslaved by fear of hell?

Look at all the people who are terribly lonely, hungry, hurt, addicted, troubled, and suffering. Are they experiencing salvation? No. We are called to be part of their salvation, right?

Are we all going to heaven? Well, would a human K&W choose hell? I don’t see how it could happen, but one must remain open to the possibility.

As far as “putting my idea all together”, there is really only so much I can say. We together have to look from the same vantage point. For starters, have you forgiven everyone you have ever held the slightest bit against, without conditions stopping your forgiveness?

Thanks, Fran, you are wonderful. Come back any time.

Hi One Sheep,

The answer to your last question is a resounding YES. As each of us here on this thread, I’m sure; has done at one time or another. But you want us to do it all the time – We understand.

The first thing you learn in exegesis is not to take one verse and make it into a doctrine. Which is what you’ve done with one of Jesus’ 7 “words” from the cross.

Oddly enough, this thread makes me think of hell more than any other - but I think I’ve figured out who’s in hell.

It certainly isn’t going to be me because I’m not smart enough. It’s going to be super intelligent people who could actually KNOW that they’re WILLFULLY rejecting God. Oh. And they won’t have any psychological or emotional problems either that could get in the way of WHAT they know, how they UNDERSTAND it, or how if AFFECTS them.

Sounds like the best are headed down there!

I just also don’t understand why you titled your thread the way you did. Wouldn’t any one of these have been better?:

Why we should forgive everyone.
Why God will forgive everyone.
How we can forgive everyone.
No one really knows what they’re doing when sinning.
Does anyone will to sin?
God understands our faults and will forgive them all.
Is anyone really responsible for their thoughts or actions?
Why do we have a conscience?
Can I forgive persons who have done damage to others and not to me?
Are there any evil people in the world?

Gosh. I could go on forever.

You know what’s really and seriously bothering me about all this? You have Catholic under religious affiliation. I’ve been here since only July of this year and I’ve heard the most outlandish ideas. You know that I’ve taught catechism and have a small bible study, sanctioned by my parish. Thus, there are some that don’t know their religion, some that don’t understand it and some that have, let’s say, funny ideas. The people on these threads, such as yourself, are very intelligent and know doctrine, so how do they come up with ideas so contrary to christian beliefs, let alone catholic ones.

I’m not expecting an answer. It’s of no use.

Fran
P.S. I think my husband and I are still together because we HAVE set conditions for each other –

 

[OneSheep]

Love is more than trying to sanitize one’s negative feelings.
While it does help oneself to be friendly, it does quite the opposite when it is but a passive-aggressive acting out.

Hi Aloysium

If a person is passive-aggressive, he is not understanding, forgiving, or acting in love, right?

We all here are in agreement that God loves us; in spite of our sinfulness, I would add.
I have read many words penned by Pope Francis. I fail to understand the point you are making.

My conclusion from my observations is simple, Aloysium. People are beautiful and are drawn to love. Behaviors that show the opposite are because of blindness and lack of awareness.

Hearing that someone does not see any bad intent in himself troubles me.
I have seen the consequences of much evil done in this world by persons who saw themselves as guiltless.
I should add that the far more serious concern is that the person is disconnected from their conscience and hence their relationship with God.
If one cannot be themselves before God, without any excuses or rationalizations, they cannot repent…

People who see themselves as guiltless when they have done evil do not have well-formed consciences.They are blind or lacking in awareness, in my observations. When we are blind, we may become disconnected (temporarily) from our consciences. This is not an excuse, Aloysium, it is an explanation of what actually happens.

Explanations are windows into the workings of the human mind. Excuses are attempts to avoid consequence. They are totally different.

There is no point repeating what has been stated and restated numerous times, simply to have it distorted as it passes through the grid of your belief system.

Yes, there is no point repeating assertions, Aloysium. There is always a point in investigating behaviors that we have not discussed! The point is to understand why people do all the things they do! Would you dissuade such a project? Why stifle understanding?

I’ll tell you why we stifle understanding. We fear that if we understand people, we will have to let go of our condemnation of someone, which goes against our conscience sometimes. This is not a phenomenon we are aware of, it is largely in the subconscious that we resist letting go of condemnation. But you see, letting go of our condemnation is a part of forgiveness itself!

Thanks.

 

[OneSheep]

Hi One Sheep,

The answer to your last question is a resounding YES. As each of us here on this thread, I’m sure; has done at one time or another. But you want us to do it all the time – We understand.

The first thing you learn in exegesis is not to take one verse and make it into a doctrine. Which is what you’ve done with one of Jesus’ 7 “words” from the cross.

Hi Fran,

“Forgive them, for they know not what they do.” is a guide to our own forgiveness. It is not a doctrine. However, I am definitely in favor of the image of an unconditionally forgiving God. You would be steering your students wrong to say otherwise. You would be giving people reasons not to forgive, which would take away from their own earthly salvation. Fran, people holding a grudge want to hang onto the grudge, and that helps no one. If they have a condition on their forgiveness, such as “the person must repent”, then they may hang onto their grudge for a lifetime. This is not the holiness we are called to.

Oddly enough, this thread makes me think of hell more than any other - but I think I’ve figured out who’s in hell.

It certainly isn’t going to be me because I’m not smart enough. It’s going to be super intelligent people who could actually KNOW that they’re WILLFULLY rejecting God. Oh. And they won’t have any psychological or emotional problems either that could get in the way of WHAT they know, how they UNDERSTAND it, or how if AFFECTS them.

It is contrary to charity to point at any person or group and say they are in hell, Fran. Are you trying to encourage people to look at others and decide who should be condemned? No person knowingly and willingly chooses hell, Fran, that is my observation. If you have a different observation, bring it forth. That is what this thread is about, to understand what is really going on with those that we think are K&WRG, which is why the title is appropriate.

This thread is about dismantling our negative perceptions of people, shedding the light on what is really going on in the human.

You know what’s really and seriously bothering me about all this? You have Catholic under religious affiliation. I’ve been here since only July of this year and I’ve heard the most outlandish ideas. You know that I’ve taught catechism and have a small bible study, sanctioned by my parish. Thus, there are some that don’t know their religion, some that don’t understand it and some that have, let’s say, funny ideas. The people on these threads, such as yourself, are very intelligent and know doctrine, so how do they come up with ideas so contrary to christian beliefs, let alone catholic ones.

Name one idea I have presented that is contrary to Catholic belief, Fran. You won’t find one. What I have said are things that are contrary to your own version of Catholic belief. Name one, Fran.

I’m not expecting an answer. It’s of no use.

Fran
P.S. I think my husband and I are still together because we HAVE set conditions for each other –

It is always of use to discuss our faith, we all can learn something new!

Conditions have a purpose! We can set up conditions of love with others, and out of fear of loss of such love we behave. It is less free, but it functions. It is exactly the way our natural conscience works! It is our human “default mode”, and it is a gift from God.

However, growing in love means to learn how to love as God does, to be perfect as He is perfect, to learn how to forgive without the conditions being met.

In other words, if a Catechist were to tell his students, “Don’t forgive people unless they repent”, for example, what good is that? Our natural consciences already compel us to withhold forgiveness from the unrepentant. It would be like telling a person to remember to eat!

Try to buy into the vision here. The Christians stand on one side and the Muslims on the other, both refusing to forgive until the other repents. Is that the way of the Kingdom? No! The way of the Kingdom is that the side who knows that God loves unconditionally, that side forgives without condition, and the other side, seeing their sincerity, is inspired to do the same.

Do you see how it works?

 

[OneSheep]

Look, there are narcissists. They love themselves and hate others.

Good Morning, opusAquinas,

Okay, good example to bring up. Jesus said that everyone loves themselves, which seems a bit odd given that some commit suicide. Even the suicidal, though, are performing a very odd act of self-love; they are escaping a suffering. Unfortunately, the suicidal are so caught up in their own misery that they fail to see how the act will so much hurt those around them. They are blind.

The means of understanding others is to follow Jesus’ words to “seek”. The first question is (IMO) “why are some people so self-involved, at the expense of others?”
What do you think, opusA?

Narcissism does not usually imply hatred of others, but it is quite possible that there is such hatred in an individual. So, in this case there is a second question, “Why does this person hate others?” How did this happen, opusA (the hatred of all others)? Perhaps you could describe how it could happen.

When Jesus asks to forgive those who do not understand - He means give them the grace of conversion. Some people hate Jesus Christ. Some people hate the beatitudes. You want to know what it feels like to be the devil - you’re asking for trouble.

Yes, at the moment that people were crucifying Jesus they hated Him, and Jesus forgave them. When we are to forgive others, it means forgiveness from the heart. I think you are you saying that Jesus forgave them from His heart, and such forgiveness inspires us to forgive, which is a grace in itself. Is that something along the lines of your thinking?

I want to know what it feels like to be the devil?

God Bless. Thank you for your response!

 

[frangiuliano115]

Hi Fran,

“Forgive them, for they know not what they do.” is a guide to our own forgiveness. It is not a doctrine. However, I am definitely in favor of the image of an unconditionally forgiving God. You would be steering your students wrong to say otherwise. You would be giving people reasons not to forgive, which would take away from their own earthly salvation. Fran, people holding a grudge want to hang onto the grudge, and that helps no one. If they have a condition on their forgiveness, such as “the person must repent”, then they may hang onto their grudge for a lifetime. This is not the holiness we are called to.

It is contrary to charity to point at any person or group and say they are in hell, Fran. Are you trying to encourage people to look at others and decide who should be condemned? No person knowingly and willingly chooses hell, Fran, that is my observation. If you have a different observation, bring it forth. That is what this thread is about, to understand what is really going on with those that we think are K&WRG, which is why the title is appropriate.

This thread is about dismantling our negative perceptions of people, shedding the light on what is really going on in the human.

Name one idea I have presented that is contrary to Catholic belief, Fran. You won’t find one. What I have said are things that are contrary to your own version of Catholic belief. Name one, Fran.

It is always of use to discuss our faith, we all can learn something new!

Conditions have a purpose! We can set up conditions of love with others, and out of fear of loss of such love we behave. It is less free, but it functions. It is exactly the way our natural conscience works! It is our human “default mode”, and it is a gift from God.

However, growing in love means to learn how to love as God does, to be perfect as He is perfect, to learn how to forgive without the conditions being met.

In other words, if a Catechist were to tell his students, “Don’t forgive people unless they repent”, for example, what good is that? Our natural consciences already compel us to withhold forgiveness from the unrepentant. It would be like telling a person to remember to eat!

Try to buy into the vision here. The Christians stand on one side and the Muslims on the other, both refusing to forgive until the other repents. Is that the way of the Kingdom? No! The way of the Kingdom is that the side who knows that God loves unconditionally, that side forgives without condition, and the other side, seeing their sincerity, is inspired to do the same.

Do you see how it works?

UFFA!

I forgot about how you don’t LISTEN.

Okay. The hell thing is tongue in cheek, OF COURSE!!!

YOU’VE made Jesus words from the cross into a doctrine - not me and not the church.

I don’t have students. This is not how bible study works. It’s not a catholic university. I’m not a professor.

But, have no fear, I DO say all the right things. I think Pope Francis would be very happy with me!

2 Peter 2:20.22

No wait. They didn’t know what they were doing.

BUT BEFORE or AFTER??

Fran
P.S. You say:

The way of the Kingdom is that the side who knows that God loves unconditionally, that side forgives without condition, and the other side, seeing their sincerity, is inspired to do the same.

Have you been studying The Obama Method Toward Peace? News Flash: It doesn’t work. You see, the other person may not be as nice as you are…

 

[OneSheep]

UFFA!

I forgot about how you don’t LISTEN.

Okay. The hell thing is tongue in cheek, OF COURSE!!!

YOU’VE made Jesus words from the cross into a doctrine - not me and not the church.

I don’t have students. This is not how bible study works. It’s not a catholic university. I’m not a professor.

But, have no fear, I DO say all the right things. I think Pope Francis would be very happy with me!

2 Peter 2:20.22

No wait. They didn’t know what they were doing.

BUT BEFORE or AFTER??

Yes this is true. A person who turns his back on righteousness does not know what they are doing. Such lack happens, the blindness happens, before the person makes the choice to go “back to his vomit” so to speak. Desire blinds us.

Fran
P.S. You say:

The way of the Kingdom is that the side who knows that God loves unconditionally, that side forgives without condition, and the other side, seeing their sincerity, is inspired to do the same.

Have you been studying The Obama Method Toward Peace? News Flash: It doesn’t work. You see, the other person may not be as nice as you are…

Obama never tried it, he just kept doing what the previous administrations did. Did you ever hear Obama talk about forgiving the enemy? I didn’t. We need our Church to say such things, more loudly!

And of course it means forgiveness from the heart. All the political and territorial dealings would have to follow, but guided by the forgiveness.

Thanks, dear, and btw, I had to look up “uffa”. I can see an Italian woman saying it. You’re so adorable when you are frustrated. Hey, its hard to know when you are being tongue-in-cheek.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . If a person is passive-aggressive, he is not understanding, forgiving, or acting in love, right?

My conclusion from my observations is simple, Aloysium. People are beautiful and are drawn to love. Behaviors that show the opposite are because of blindness and lack of awareness.

People who see themselves as guiltless when they have done evil do not have well-formed consciences.They are blind or lacking in awareness, in my observations. When we are blind, we may become disconnected (temporarily) from our consciences. This is not an excuse, Aloysium, it is an explanation of what actually happens.

Explanations are windows into the workings of the human mind. Excuses are attempts to avoid consequence. They are totally different.

Yes, there is no point repeating assertions, Aloysium. There is always a point in investigating behaviors that we have not discussed! The point is to understand why people do all the things they do! Would you dissuade such a project? Why stifle understanding?

I’ll tell you why we stifle understanding. We fear that if we understand people, we will have to let go of our condemnation of someone, which goes against our conscience sometimes. This is not a phenomenon we are aware of, it is largely in the subconscious that we resist letting go of condemnation. But you see, letting go of our condemnation is a part of forgiveness itself!

Thanks.

The passive-aggressiveness describes a pattern of behaviour
which is then a matter between the person and God as it pertains to morality

• the expression of love within the person’s relationships.
  I’m not sure what your issue is with forgiveness.
  I have no one to forgive, but I have seen the consequences of great evil in this world - evil done by men and women.

You lack an appreciation of the depth of human nature, the darkness that lies within.
We do have the capacity to defile the beauty that reflects the glory of God who is the Source of our existence.
The potential is wondrous; what we do with it can be something else.

You said you have had no bad intent. To that I say “Hogwash!”
One thing I do know about human nature is how far we have strayed, not in ignorance, but in full awareness, blinding our selves to the truth, which is Love.

Explanations reveal what is dead, what has happened. In giving of ourselves, we grow, we live.
I cannot speak about anyone else; I know what it means to knowingly and willingly reject God.
I understand that Pope John Paul II went to confession weekly; I believe he, a saint knew.
You do not.

Your attempts at what you call “understanding” are quite the opposite.
They are distortions of what is clearly known when we sit with God and what the church reveals in its inspired teachings.

I’m not sure whjat you mean by condemnation.
I am in no position to condemn anyone.
It is only God to whom I have to answer.
And He knows the truth, in and out.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Yes this is true. A person who turns his back on righteousness does not know what they are doing. Such lack happens, the blindness happens, before the person makes the choice to go “back to his vomit” so to speak. Desire blinds us.

Obama never tried it, he just kept doing what the previous administrations did. Did you ever hear Obama talk about forgiving the enemy? I didn’t. We need our Church to say such things, more loudly!

And of course it means forgiveness from the heart. All the political and territorial dealings would have to follow, but guided by the forgiveness.

Thanks, dear, and btw, I had to look up “uffa”. I can see an Italian woman saying it. You’re so adorable when you are frustrated. Hey, its hard to know when you are being tongue-in-cheek.

Uffa One Sheep. Obama has been doing this for 7 years now. Be friendly and they’ll be friendly to you. Right!

How could you know what uffa means? I hope you know it means:
Gosh darn it, One Sheep!
I kid around often - don’t be so serious!

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

The passive-aggressiveness describes a pattern of behaviour
which is then a matter between the person and God as it pertains to morality

• the expression of love within the person’s relationships.
  I’m not sure what your issue is with forgiveness.
  I have no one to forgive, but I have seen the consequences of great evil in this world - evil done by men and women.

**You lack an appreciation of the depth of human nature, the darkness that lies within.
We do have the capacity to defile the beauty that reflects the glory of God who is the Source of our existence.
The potential is wondrous; what we do with it can be something else.
**

You said you have had no bad intent. To that I say “Hogwash!”
One thing I do know about human nature is how far we have strayed, not in ignorance, but in full awareness, blinding our selves to the truth, which is Love.

Explanations reveal what is dead, what has happened. In giving of ourselves, we grow, we live.
I cannot speak about anyone else; I know what it means to knowingly and willingly reject God.
I understand that Pope John Paul II went to confession weekly; I believe he, a saint knew.
You do not.

Your attempts at what you call “understanding” are quite the opposite.
They are distortions of what is clearly known when we sit with God and what the church reveals in its inspired teachings.

I’m not sure whjat you mean by condemnation.
I am in no position to condemn anyone.
It is only God to whom I have to answer.
And He knows the truth, in and out.

I could not agree more with the highlighted. Maybe I’m too sensitive, but I’ve seen much and sense when there is evil in people. Many do what the OP cannot believe - purposefully do harm to others and enjoy the consequences of their actions. How you would want to explain this is personal. I believe satan exists, I believe in evil in intentions and actions. I think it’s dangerous not to believe this.

Doesn’t the penitential rite at the beginning of every Mass confirm this? In thought, word or deed, in action or omission…If we ask for forgiveness it means we know we’ve done wrong. Catholicism teaches that we sin only when we know we’ve done wrong. If we never know, then we’re just all saved!

If I have a knife stuck in my belly, it could be because the person who put it there was mad, or emotionally upset, or blind to some fact, but the knife will still be there.

It seems like such as easy concept…

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

The passive-aggressiveness describes a pattern of behaviour
which is then a matter between the person and God as it pertains to morality

• the expression of love within the person’s relationships.
  I’m not sure what your issue is with forgiveness.
  I have no one to forgive, but I have seen the consequences of great evil in this world - evil done by men and women.

You lack an appreciation of the depth of human nature, the darkness that lies within.
We do have the capacity to defile the beauty that reflects the glory of God who is the Source of our existence.
The potential is wondrous; what we do with it can be something else.

You said you have had no bad intent. To that I say “Hogwash!”
One thing I do know about human nature is how far we have strayed, not in ignorance, but in full awareness, blinding our selves to the truth, which is Love.

Hi Aloysium,

Yes, the human has the capacity to do great evil, there is no denying that. And yes, there is “bad intent” at the surface, a person can intend to do something bad in order to fulfill a deeper need that is good, at least in the eyes of an objective observer.

Why would a person purposely blind themselves to the truth? If you provide a scenario we can discuss it. If you would rather not provide a scenario, I can do it for you. Let me know!

Explanations reveal what is dead, what has happened. In giving of ourselves, we grow, we live.
I cannot speak about anyone else; I know what it means to knowingly and willingly reject God.
I understand that Pope John Paul II went to confession weekly; I believe he, a saint knew.
You do not.

I don’t know very much, no. So, if you know of someone K&WRG, just bring it forward, and we can investigate whether the assertion sticks when the case is scrutinized.

Your attempts at what you call “understanding” are quite the opposite.
They are distortions of what is clearly known when we sit with God and what the church reveals in its inspired teachings.

Again, instead of making an unsupported assertion, just bring forward the “distortion” and we can discuss it. In the mean time, Aloysium, it is uncharitable to make accusations.

I’m not sure whjat you mean by condemnation.
I am in no position to condemn anyone.
It is only God to whom I have to answer.
And He knows the truth, in and out.

Condemn: to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

Calling my words “distortions” of God’s teachings is a condemnation. Now, you are not intending to condemn me personally, but it is still uncharitable to make a blanket negative statement about what someone else says here. If you don’t understand, try to understand instead of condemning. That is what this thread is about.

Is it “bad intent” to speak disrespectfully about someone else’s words? On the surface, yes, by an outside observer! . But you did not intend to do anything bad! Your underlying intent, Aloysium, is not bad at all. You are probably perceiving that something I am saying is a threat to your belief system, and you are intending to protect that belief system, that is your underlying intent. You are also thinking that calling my words “distortions” is no big deal, which is what others may think about shoplifting. Now, some would say that the means (speaking disrespectfully of another’s words) do not justify the ends (protection of our own version of truth), but I am saying that this thread is not about means and ends at all, it is about understanding people’s behaviors.

In your uncharitable remarks, are you blind, or are you lacking awareness? I don’t know. If you are feeling some resentment, then your lack of charity may be a matter of blindness. However, since you said you did not “know what I meant by condemnation” but had just condemned what I have said on this thread, then perhaps some lack of awareness is involved too.

Whatever the case may be, disrespecting me is not your aim, you did not want or intend to show disrespect toward a person you greatly value. The disrespect happened while trying to achieve something else.

Now do you see what I mean?

 

[OneSheep]

Doesn’t the penitential rite at the beginning of every Mass confirm this? In thought, word or deed, in action or omission…If we ask for forgiveness it means we know we’ve done wrong. Catholicism teaches that we sin only when we know we’ve done wrong. If we never know, then we’re just all saved!

If I have a knife stuck in my belly, it could be because the person who put it there was mad, or emotionally upset, or blind to some fact, but the knife will still be there.

It seems like such as easy concept…

Fran

Fran, please remember that this thread is not about denying that people do wrong.

This thread is about showing that when people do wrong, they do not know what they are doing. This thread is not about making excuses for people or saying that people do not have the capacity to do evil.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Fran, please remember that this thread is not about denying that people do wrong.

This thread is about showing that when people do wrong, they do not know what they are doing. This thread is not about making excuses for people or saying that people do not have the capacity to do evil.

Buon Giorno One Sheep,

Yes. I KNOW what this thread is about. As I already said, I think the title is wrong. But what do I know?? I’ve never even started a thread and, most likely, never will.

Nobody knows what they’re doing. Probably, I don’t know what I’m doing right now. My intent could be all wrong, for all I know - who can be sure of anything? (tongue in cheek).

Here’s what you say to Aloysium:

**Calling my words “distortions” of God’s teachings is a condemnation. Now, you are not intending to condemn me personally, but it is still uncharitable to make a blanket negative statement about what someone else says here. If you don’t understand, try to understand instead of condemning. That is what this thread is about.
**

And thus, this is the whole problem with your proposition.

First, calling distorting God’s teachings is not a condemnation but is a TRUTH. If you’re distorting God’s word, and I agree that your concept of forgiveness does not take actions against God into account and is rather dangerous and IS distorting His word, then if I bring your attention to it, how is that condemnation? Then condemnation abounds when we exchange ideas and you force us to be silent about everything! There would be no more threads if we all kept silent. Exchange of ideas is what this is all about. And if someone believes my idea is incorrect, that is not condemnation.

BTW - I’m always adorable!

Arriverderci
Maybe it should be Addio??

Fran

 

[simpleas]

Fran, please remember that this thread is not about denying that people do wrong.

This thread is about showing that when people do wrong, they do not know what they are doing. This thread is not about making excuses for people or saying that people do not have the capacity to do evil.

Hey Onesheep.

How can you be sure that they do not know what they are doing? I know you like to quote Jesus’ words from the cross, and I do accept what he was saying and that they most likely didn’t know what they were doing because of their unwillingness to change.

But in everyday issues, we sometimes do things which we know are not right, but still go ahead with it. We can then feel guilty, which is a sign (i think) that we deep down inside knew that words/act to be wrong, or we can go about our lives ignoring what we did, blinding ourselves to the truth of what we did.
Not to say we have to stay in that state of course, we can change, sometimes by our own will/Gods, and sometimes with the help of others.

I’ve seen alot of hurt in people who continually repeat the same mistake and they sometimes are so angry with themselves, that they blame others too, but most all of these people do want help to get out of their situation.
But by blaming the other, they do not need to accept their own fault. It can be a vicious circle.
So there are many that don’t k&wrg, but are stuck in the vicious circle that they need to get out of, some do k&wrg too.
Not sure about people with metal problems, they couldn’t accept nor reject God.

I think we all see it differently anyway, what makes sense to one person may not make sense to the other. Does that mean one is correct and one incorrect?

Just me 2 pennies.

 

[OneSheep]

Buon Giorno One Sheep,

Yes. I KNOW what this thread is about. As I already said, I think the title is wrong. But what do I know?? I’ve never even started a thread and, most likely, never will.

Nobody knows what they’re doing. Probably, I don’t know what I’m doing right now. My intent could be all wrong, for all I know - who can be sure of anything? (tongue in cheek).

Here’s what you say to Aloysium:

**Calling my words “distortions” of God’s teachings is a condemnation. Now, you are not intending to condemn me personally, but it is still uncharitable to make a blanket negative statement about what someone else says here. If you don’t understand, try to understand instead of condemning. That is what this thread is about.
**

And thus, this is the whole problem with your proposition.

First, calling distorting God’s teachings is not a condemnation but is a TRUTH. If you’re distorting God’s word, and I agree that your concept of forgiveness does not take actions against God into account and is rather dangerous and IS distorting His word, then if I bring your attention to it, how is that condemnation? Then condemnation abounds when we exchange ideas and you force us to be silent about everything! There would be no more threads if we all kept silent. Exchange of ideas is what this is all about. And if someone believes my idea is incorrect, that is not condemnation.

BTW - I’m always adorable!

Arriverderci
Maybe it should be Addio??

Fran

Fran, my friend, I have not forced you to be silent about anything. When the investigation of people’s actions has veered into application of justice, I have tried to steer the conversation back into understanding people’s actions, it is only a matter of trying to stay on topic.

Let’s go back to the definition of condemn:

condemn: to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure. (dictionary.com)

So, to call someone’s writings a “distortion of Catholic teaching”, unless the individual actually approves of such distortions, is a condemnation. I could read from the poster’s tone that he did not approve of my writings, showing an “unfavorable or adverse judgment”. Therefore, he was condemning.

In addition, you are expressing disfavor of my words also, saying that they are distorting. This, also, is a condemnation using the definition above. You are judging my words unfavorable, and are indicating a strong disapproval.

So, we can say that you intended to condemn. However, you are not intending to hurt anyone nor are you condemning my words just for the sake of the joy of shooting something down. No, you see that it is good to condemn! You are protecting what you see as the truth, you want me to see things your way, you want my words (which, by the way, I have supported with words from the Church and scripture all along) to be seen as contrary to Christianity. I understand, Fran, its okay. You are not knowingly and willingly trying to do evil, indeed you are trying to achieve a good!

This is what I am saying is my observation of everything people do. No one, in my observation, tries to achieve some bad, they are wanting something good. In the process of wanting, and in the process of resenting (if it happens) then blindness can occur. People do not knowingly and willingly reject God, they are behaving from their God-given desires, and because of blindness people end up hurting others. Blindness causes empathy blockage and compromises the conscience.

Examples: Peter’s conscience was compromised by fear when he denied Jesus. The crowd who hung Jesus were blinded by resentment. David was blinded by desire when he took someone else’s wife.

The crucifixion was an act against God, Fran! People did the ultimate act against God, and He forgave! He forgave because He saw that they were wanting to achieve something good, but they did not know what they were doing. He forgave even though the crowd was not repenting. This is the model for human understanding and forgiveness.

Do you see what I am saying? Is there anything I said above that still doesn’t make sense, or seems to be a distortion? Feel free to give a counterpoint.

Thanks

 

[frangiuliano115]

Fran, my friend, I have not forced you to be silent about anything. When the investigation of people’s actions has veered into application of justice, I have tried to steer the conversation back into understanding people’s actions, it is only a matter of trying to stay on topic.

Let’s go back to the definition of condemn:

condemn: to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure. (dictionary.com)

So, to call someone’s writings a “distortion of Catholic teaching”, unless the individual actually approves of such distortions, is a condemnation. I could read from the poster’s tone that he did not approve of my writings, showing an “unfavorable or adverse judgment”. Therefore, he was condemning.

In addition, you are expressing disfavor of my words also, saying that they are distorting. This, also, is a condemnation using the definition above. You are judging my words unfavorable, and are indicating a strong disapproval.

So, we can say that you intended to condemn. However, you are not intending to hurt anyone nor are you condemning my words just for the sake of the joy of shooting something down. No, you see that it is good to condemn! You are protecting what you see as the truth, you want me to see things your way, you want my words (which, by the way, I have supported with words from the Church and scripture all along) to be seen as contrary to Christianity. I understand, Fran, its okay. You are not knowingly and willingly trying to do evil, indeed you are trying to achieve a good!

This is what I am saying is my observation of everything people do. No one, in my observation, tries to achieve some bad, they are wanting something good. In the process of wanting, and in the process of resenting (if it happens) then blindness can occur. People do not knowingly and willingly reject God, they are behaving from their God-given desires, and because of blindness people end up hurting others. Blindness causes empathy blockage and compromises the conscience.

Examples: Peter’s conscience was compromised by fear when he denied Jesus. The crowd who hung Jesus were blinded by resentment. David was blinded by desire when he took someone else’s wife.

**The crucifixion was an act against God, Fran! People did the ultimate act against God, and He forgave! He forgave because He saw that they were wanting to achieve something good, but they did not know what they were doing. ** He forgave even though the crowd was not repenting. This is the model for human understanding and forgiveness.

Do you see what I am saying? Is there anything I said above that still doesn’t make sense, or seems to be a distortion? Feel free to give a counterpoint.

Thanks

You do keep going back to the crucifixion. I don’t know why Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, Jude, Timothy, Titus, James and whoever wrote Hebrews, even bothered. They could have just quoted Jesus words from the cross.

What could be the good you think those people were trying to achieve? I think we’ve been through this already. Can’t remember. The Jews wanted to get rid of Jesus because He was becoming a danger to their way of life and authority.

I read a book once which put forth the idea that at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion He must have felt surrounded by a sea of enemies. The very people, His people, whom He came to enlighten had become His enemies.

He also said from the cross: “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?” This could be taken to have different meanings. I prefer to believe that at that moment Jesus felt the SIN and sins of the world on His shoulders. He felt totally abandoned by God, and, for the first time in His life, felt all alone. Miserably alone.

All the theologians who believe as I do, understand that Jesus took sin upon Himself at that moment of redemption. If He took the sins upon Himself it means sins existed. If sins existed, someone was committing them.

Do you realize you’re negating the need for the redemption?

If we, all of us, just don’t know what we’re doing - why did Jesus have to die?

Jesus wants God to forgive everyone, you’re right about that. 100%. But tell me what we have to do to be forgiven?

Catholicism 101.

You have to know that you’ve sinned. If you know, you know.
Why do people sin, One Sheep? Because they listen to satan. That’s the reason.
And does God forgive them? Of course. Just as we should. But they have to be sorry first. And IF they’re sorry and could be forgiven it means they know they’ve done something wrong.

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

Hey Onesheep.

How can you be sure that they do not know what they are doing? I know you like to quote Jesus’ words from the cross, and I do accept what he was saying and that they most likely didn’t know what they were doing because of their unwillingness to change.

But in everyday issues, we sometimes do things which we know are not right, but still go ahead with it. We can then feel guilty, which is a sign (i think) that we deep down inside knew that words/act to be wrong, or we can go about our lives ignoring what we did, blinding ourselves to the truth of what we did.
Not to say we have to stay in that state of course, we can change, sometimes by our own will/Gods, and sometimes with the help of others.

I’ve seen alot of hurt in people who continually repeat the same mistake and they sometimes are so angry with themselves, that they blame others too, but most all of these people do want help to get out of their situation.
But by blaming the other, they do not need to accept their own fault. It can be a vicious circle.
So there are many that don’t k&wrg, but are stuck in the vicious circle that they need to get out of, some do k&wrg too.
Not sure about people with metal problems, they couldn’t accept nor reject God.

I think we all see it differently anyway, what makes sense to one person may not make sense to the other. Does that mean one is correct and one incorrect?

Just me 2 pennies.

I like the pennies, thanks.

Understanding takes some prayer, Simpleas. It takes some reflection.

For example, I think you are saying that a when a person does things which he knows are not right (against his conscience), but still goes ahead with may be K&WRG.

What happens in the mind is that the person’s conscience is compromised at the moment of the deciding to do wrong. After the wrong has occurred, the person sees the harm he has done and his conscience has “snapped back” to normal. He feels guilt.

So you see, if the person had the foresight to experience seeing the harm done before and during the decision to do wrong, then the wrong choice would not be made. The harm of his action is not in his mind, the person has been blinded by desire, resentment, fear, or what have you. This lack of awareness of the harm, at the moment, is a lack of knowing. The person who does wrong in this instance is not behaving “knowingly”.

Can you give an example where the above is not accurate, given the scenario you presented? Here are some “everyday wrongs”: A woman on a diet eats a donut (against the diet, of course). A man fails to tip someone that his conscience ordinarily says he should.

Can we all be correct? Well, maybe. A lot of this boils down to definitions. I think it is fair to say that our beliefs all line up with our experiences, which in that sense makes everyone “correct”. However, a person can learn from the experiences of someone else, and so their own version of “correct” may shift a little. Somewhere beneath there is a truth to be determined, I think, which is an ultimate “correct”.

Do you want to investigate one of these cases, or is there something else?

Thanks for your participation.

 

[OneSheep]

Hi, Good morning! (Good afternoon!)

You do keep going back to the crucifixion. I don’t know why Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, Jude, Timothy, Titus, James and whoever wrote Hebrews, even bothered. They could have just quoted Jesus words from the cross.

Those writers said nothing that contradicts Jesus’ words from the cross.

What could be the good you think those people were trying to achieve? I think we’ve been through this already. Can’t remember. The Jews wanted to get rid of Jesus because He was becoming a danger to their way of life and authority.

Yes, the good they were trying to achieve was to rid the world of what they perceived to be a dangerous, worthless blasphemer.

I read a book once which put forth the idea that at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion He must have felt surrounded by a sea of enemies. The very people, His people, whom He came to enlighten had become His enemies.

He also said from the cross: “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?” This could be taken to have different meanings. I prefer to believe that at that moment Jesus felt the SIN and sins of the world on His shoulders. He felt totally abandoned by God, and, for the first time in His life, felt all alone. Miserably alone.

Yes, that makes sense. Harm happens, and people cause harm. We can feel it. Jesus felt all of it. And in his experience of being condemned and abandoned, even those on death row can relate to Him.

All the theologians who believe as I do, understand that Jesus took sin upon Himself at that moment of redemption. If He took the sins upon Himself it means sins existed. If sins existed, someone was committing them.

Sins are occurrences, Fran, they do not have a permanent or even semi-permanent “existence”. Our self-condemnation can be ongoing, it can have some permanence.

Do you realize you’re negating the need for the redemption?

No, I don’t “realize” that. Please explain.

If we, all of us, just don’t know what we’re doing - why did Jesus have to die?

From Cardinal Ratzinger. (You have seen this before):

robertaconnor.blogspot.com/2011/03/reappraisal-of-meaning-of-redemption.html

It was not to pay a debt, as you can see from the article.

Jesus wants God to forgive everyone, you’re right about that. 100%. But tell me what we have to do to be forgiven?

Catholicism 101.

You have to know that you’ve sinned. If you know, you know.
Why do people sin, One Sheep? Because they listen to satan. That’s the reason.
And does God forgive them? Of course. Just as we should. But they have to be sorry first. And IF they’re sorry and could be forgiven it means they know they’ve done something wrong.

Yes, people know they have done something wrong, but that does not mean that they were K&WRG when they decided to do the wrong. They wanted something good to happen, and in some examples the “wrongness” temporarily fell by the wayside.

From Fr. Scott Hurd, in Forgiveness: A Catholic Approach:

God’s love is unconditional, and , therefore, his forgiveness is too. His forgiveness is a gift of grace, and grace is always free… Yet, if we don’t forgive others, our hearts become hard, and God’s forgiveness can’t enter in. By refusing to forgive, we in turn refuse God’s forgiveness. That’s why St. Francis of Assisi could write, “It is in pardoning that we are pardoned.”

Do you see, Fran? What I am saying is not a distortion, this is alternative way of looking at our faith, just as Cardinal Ratzinger presented an alternative. What you are saying, Fran, that God forgives conditionally, is another alternative, and I think that there is a place for your alternative, as there is for mine. You will find Catholics who agree that God forgives conditionally, but we all belong.

Do you see what I am saying, or is it still confusing or contrary?

Thanks for your response.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Hi, Good morning! (Good afternoon!)

Those writers said nothing that contradicts Jesus’ words from the cross.

Yes, the good they were trying to achieve was to rid the world of what they perceived to be a dangerous, worthless blasphemer.

Yes, that makes sense. Harm happens, and people cause harm. We can feel it. Jesus felt all of it. And in his experience of being condemned and abandoned, even those on death row can relate to Him.

Sins are occurrences, Fran, they do not have a permanent or even semi-permanent “existence”. Our self-condemnation can be ongoing, it can have some permanence.

No, I don’t “realize” that. Please explain.

From Cardinal Ratzinger. (You have seen this before):

robertaconnor.blogspot.com/2011/03/reappraisal-of-meaning-of-redemption.html

It was not to pay a debt, as you can see from the article.

Yes, people know they have done something wrong, but that does not mean that they were K&WRG when they decided to do the wrong. They wanted something good to happen, and in some examples the “wrongness” temporarily fell by the wayside.

From Fr. Scott Hurd, in Forgiveness: A Catholic Approach:

God’s love is unconditional, and , therefore, his forgiveness is too. His forgiveness is a gift of grace, and grace is always free… Yet, if we don’t forgive others, our hearts become hard, and God’s forgiveness can’t enter in. By refusing to forgive, we in turn refuse God’s forgiveness. That’s why St. Francis of Assisi could write, “It is in pardoning that we are pardoned.”

Do you see, Fran? What I am saying is not a distortion, this is alternative way of looking at our faith, just as Cardinal Ratzinger presented an alternative. What you are saying, Fran, that God forgives conditionally, is another alternative, and I think that there is a place for your alternative, as there is for mine. You will find Catholics who agree that God forgives conditionally, but we all belong.

Do you see what I am saying, or is it still confusing or contrary?

Thanks for your response.

I still think you get OUR forgiving people with GOD forgiving people mixed up. You do seem to mix up the two by your quote above in blue.

WE are to forgive. At our last bible study a girl (45 but we’re still girls) was wondering how many times she has to forgive her husband who cheats on her. 70X7 or 77 depending on which gospel you wish to quote. Our not forgiving others hinders God in some way that really cannot be understood. People here are amazed at how the christians down south (can’t remember the state) forgave that gunman this summer that shot people during a church service. They’re not so christian here as might be thought.

Then you talk about God forgiving. That’s a whole different story. Do you think God’s justice is like our justice? Do you think God could be in the presence of sin like we could?

Just please explain to me how you get our forgiving mixed up with God’s forgiving. You do seem to scamble it up.

Regarding Jesus dying to pay a debt. That could be seen in different ways. I can’t talk on this because it would take too long and, quite frankly Scarlet…

The important thing is that man is a sinner and in need of redemption - however one wants to understand that is fine with me.

I’m on a different thread where some are telling me anyone outside the church is lost and others are saying this is not true.

Jesus always gets lost in these discussions.

IF WE COULD JUST AGREE ON SOMETHING!!

Fran