Does anyone else hate reading the "Crowd" part on Palm Sunday readings?

[Eliza10]

I could not agree more. There are no innocent bystanders…

Its not black and white. Its not either you are Judas or you are Mary. There are shads in between. The crowds yelling for cruscifixtion wer most like Judas. Theya wer not Disciples! The Discuples and the Apostles were different. The disciples and the Apostles were weak, but they did not turn on Jesus. Only one was a horrible traitor, Judas.

A

nd again: I truly believe that Our Lady, the only innocent bystander, would read it, because she attributes every bit of her fullness of grace to the favor of God…

I cannot beleive these horrible words would ever come out of Our lady’s mouth. This is crazy.

She knows that even her “Fiat” would not have been possible, save through Jesus’ willingness to die to free her from the folly she was heir to as a daughter of Adam and Eve. Even Our Lady needed the Cross. Even Our Lady owes the magnificence of her perfect soul to Christ. Truly, there but for the grace of God goes every single one of us. .

All true.

Without grace, we would not only yell the words. We would do the deed itself. When we sin, we do indeed do the deed ourselves. That is the misery and treachery of life outside grace…

I agree our sin is misery. However, I know I received the Grace of God in Baptism as an infant and perhaps thats I would NEVER do the deed itself.

You say many true things EasterJoy, but imagining Our Lady uttering those words makes me shudder, and offends me. And I do not draw the same inspiration out of saying “Crucify him!” that you do. And I am glad that some parishes and dioceses are recognizing those who feel like I do and are ommitting that call for our audience participation.

I would like to hear what a good theologian has to say on the subject, if anyone can find any links.

 

[Dorothy]

I find it appropriate to say the words of the “crowd” because there were times in my life that I have contributed a lot to the sufferings of Our Lord by my sins and selfishness. It reminds me of those times and causes me to be grateful for His grace that brought me back to Him.

I believe this is a good way for the Liturgy to help us obtain the mindset we need that recalls the reason for Our Lord’s Passion and Death.

 

[jmcrae]

Jesus is present at the Good Friday service. He is present in the Word proclaimed.

With all due respect, your logic is flawed. Do you not understand that every time we sin, we “compound error upon error”?

Yes, I do. Why make a rehearsal of it in a Church liturgy? I do it often enough, without needing the extra practice. What you do, what you say, becomes part of who you are. A good person is one who typically does good things. A bad person is one who typically does bad things. The practice of virtue is literally that - to practice doing good.

Why do we need to practice doing evil? For what purpose?

We all know that when our children unthinkingly recite song lyrics that praise evil actions, it will, over time, damage their souls and deaden their consciences, and we try to prevent them from doing this, as best we can. So how do we think that crying out “Crucify him!” doesn’t have a similar effect on us?

Do you not realize that every sin, whether committed 2000 years ago, today or 100 years from now, is what lead to the crucifixion? The words of the accounts of the Passion in the four Gospels are for all times.

Yes, I do. Again, is there not enough of it already in the world? Do we really need to add more sin, on purpose?

 

[Eloueen]

Just reading through all these replies really got me to thinking.

The general consensus that I’m getting is that most of us (me included, actually) feel like they’re already crucifying Christ every time they sin, and that they would be so stricken with grief if they were in the situation that the crowd was in that they would either be rendered into silence or simply run away to weep.

But then, I think about the present day. Think about how people react to criminals in this day and age. Rapists, murderers, and the ‘crowd’ calling for them to be put to death for their crimes. While Jesus was innocent, that doesn’t exactly mean that everyone KNEW he was innocent. “Thou shall not kill” might be the word of the Lord, but that doesn’t mean that the average lay-person would follow it.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that perhaps the Jews/Christians of that day WERE in fact hiding from fear and sorrow, weeping and lamenting the loss of our Lord.

-El

 

[Eliza10]

However, it is not a huge leap to jump to the conclusion that I have reached. Part of the problem is bad catechesis and the severe watering down of the effects of sin in our lives. Do you not understand that your sins and my sins contributed heavily to what happened on Good Friday? Is it that difficult a connection to make? .

When sin no longer jars us, that is a huge problem.

Speakiing of poor catechesis, where does it say in the catechism that we are to personally relate to those in the crowd who shouted “Crucify Him”?? It doesn’t. This is some theologian’s idea. And I don’t think its from a good theologian.

You must have not read what I wrote. I wrote that I understand that Jesus had to die that horrible death for me and for my sin, and that he would have done it if I were the only sinner in the world.

So just because I can’t personally identify with the crowd who wanted Him crucified, does not mean I do not understand the Cross. Jesus on the Cross inspires me. Not the Pharisees.

Are you saying that everyone in JMCrae’s congregation that sat silent and would not say “Crucify Him.” and also her bishop, who changed away from having the congregation read the crowd part, don’t understand that their sins were with Jesus on the cross??

What you still do not understand is that we are those people in the crowds.

Yup, this is one piece of theology that I think is either weak, or a leap, or just plain wrong.

Our sins are what put Jesus on the cross. Every sin committed on this earth, whether it was the sin of Adam and Eve to the evil that I will probably be committing tomorrow, twenty years from now and so on and so forth, condemned Jesus to death.

That is not in dispute here. We agree wholeheartedly on that. I don’t beleive there is anyone who contributed to this thread that disagrees with you. We are all on the same page on that one.

Just because a parish, let alone a diocese, used the approved form where the faithful read the parts of the crowd, that does not mean that it is mired in the 60s and 70s. You paint with too broad a stroke here.

I am simply saying that our Diocese is mired in the 60s and 70s, and that we also use that form. Kudos for us that its an approved form, as we do a lot of things in our Diocese that are not approved - for example, there is not a crucifix anywhere in sight in a large number of our churches, not even a small one. The only connection I can postively identfy is that I get the same sort of uncomfortable manipulated feeling with being asked to play the crowd parts that I do with so many of the other things we do here that are rooted in the rash reactions to Vatican II. Kind of like when I read a Richard O’Brien column.

If that is the case, then, you would also accuse the Holy Father of that because the choir chanted the parts of the faithful during the chanting of the Passion at the Palm Sunday Papal Mass.

Our Holy Father does things well and I will never accuse him. Having a choir perform the parts of the angry mob is very appropriate. They are performing. The people at the Mass are participating. I do not think it is appropriate to ask all the people at Mass to participate by yelling “Crucify him”. And the Holy Father did not do that. And that is good.

Furthermore, if we were to subscribe to your logic, we should not have even participated in the Palm Sunday procession. But, remember that the same people who cheered Jesus on, jeered at him on Good Friday. So, if you are going to participate in one act, you should participate in the other.

This is your logic and I don’t agree with it. Also, SOME of the people who cheered Jesus on Sunday jeered Him on Friday. NOT ALL!

Benedictgal, you can see I disagree with your logic as far as personally relating to the jeering, accusing crowd. I hope you can tolerate a differing opinion. I appreciate that you can find true inspiration relating to the “crowd” readings, and I believe you are sincere, and your sincereity and your striving to fully relate to the work of Jesus must truly please God and I do not fault you for holding your point of view even though I do not agree with the view. Clearly for you to believe as you do you are following your conscience, as I am following mine, so I think we are both pleasing God in our own way.

Meanwhile, while my Diocese continues to do it this way, I will placate my conscience by being silent while others gustily read that part. And now I can appreciate that they must be feeling humble, grateful, cathartic in doing so.

 

[Eliza10]

Yes, I do. Why make a rehearsal of it in a Church liturgy? I do it often enough, without needing the extra practice. What you do, what you say, becomes part of who you are. A good person is one who typically does good things. A bad person is one who typically does bad things. The practice of virtue is literally that - to practice doing good.

Why do we need to practice doing evil? For what purpose?

We all know that when our children unthinkingly recite song lyrics that praise evil actions, it will, over time, damage their souls and deaden their consciences, and we try to prevent them from doing this, as best we can. So how do we think that crying out “Crucify him!” doesn’t have a similar effect on us?

Yes, I do. Again, is there not enough of it already in the world? Do we really need to add more sin, on purpose?

This is astoudingly* logical*. Thanks. All I had was my gut feeling in my conscience, but you put some logic to it. Also that your Diocese changed it is affirmation that I am not alone in my gut feeling.

 

[Lujack]

Yes, I do. Why make a rehearsal of it in a Church liturgy? I do it often enough, without needing the extra practice. What you do, what you say, becomes part of who you are. A good person is one who typically does good things. A bad person is one who typically does bad things. The practice of virtue is literally that - to practice doing good.

Why do we need to practice doing evil? For what purpose?

We all know that when our children unthinkingly recite song lyrics that praise evil actions, it will, over time, damage their souls and deaden their consciences, and we try to prevent them from doing this, as best we can. So how do we think that crying out “Crucify him!” doesn’t have a similar effect on us?

We aren’t practicing doing evil, we are looking directly at our own sins. The Passion liturgy says “Look! When you skipped Mass because you were tired, when you didn’t take care of your brother, when you invented an excuse to cut class, when you disrespected your father, this is what you did!” Twice a year, and that’s all, it forces us to take that square in the jaw. We should hate saying it, because we should hate the fact that this is what we have done, but it is what we have done.

I know that I’m a sinner, and I know that I have sinned in what I have done and what I have failed to do. Does that mean that I can get out of saying the Confiteor? I don’t think so.

Yes, I do. Again, is there not enough of it already in the world? Do we really need to add more sin, on purpose?

Saying “Crucify him! Crucify him!” is not a sin; its your portion of the Passion that reminds you of your own sin. It was a sin then, it would probably not be a good thing to walk down the street yelling “Crucify him! Crucify him!” just because, but it isn’t a sin to follow the liturgy that the Church has laid out.

 

[JaredR]

Yes, I do. Why make a rehearsal of it in a Church liturgy? I do it often enough, without needing the extra practice. What you do, what you say, becomes part of who you are. A good person is one who typically does good things. A bad person is one who typically does bad things. The practice of virtue is literally that - to practice doing good.

Why do we need to practice doing evil? For what purpose?

We all know that when our children unthinkingly recite song lyrics that praise evil actions, it will, over time, damage their souls and deaden their consciences, and we try to prevent them from doing this, as best we can. So how do we think that crying out “Crucify him!” doesn’t have a similar effect on us?

Yes, I do. Again, is there not enough of it already in the world? Do we really need to add more sin, on purpose?

Again, you are saying that the Church is leading people to do evil and commit sin during Mass! How can that be, jmcrae?

 

[jmcrae]

We aren’t practicing doing evil, we are looking directly at our own sins. The Passion liturgy says “Look! When you skipped Mass because you were tired, when you didn’t take care of your brother, when you invented an excuse to cut class, when you disrespected your father, this is what you did!” Twice a year, and that’s all, it forces us to take that square in the jaw. We should hate saying it, because we should hate the fact that this is what we have done, but it is what we have done.

I know that I’m a sinner, and I know that I have sinned in what I have done and what I have failed to do. Does that mean that I can get out of saying the Confiteor? I don’t think so.

The Confiteor is an admission of sin; not a re-enactment or rehearsal of sin. “I have done” these things - not “Let’s do” these things, or “let’s pretend we’re doing” these things.

Admitting we are sinners is a good thing.

Actually committing a sin, or pretending to commit a sin, in demonstration of that fact seems not-so-good, though.

Saying “Crucify him! Crucify him!” is not a sin; its your portion of the Passion that reminds you of your own sin. It was a sin then, it would probably not be a good thing to walk down the street yelling “Crucify him! Crucify him!” just because, but it isn’t a sin to follow the liturgy that the Church has laid out.

It is never a sin to do as you are told when the person telling you has the right to tell you what to do, but at the same time - is it edifying? If it wouldn’t be good to do this in real life, then why should we do it “in pretend”?

 

[jmcrae]

Again, you are saying that the Church is leading people to do evil and commit sin during Mass! How can that be, jmcrae?

Is it the Church, or is it just certain Bishops? Is there anything set in stone from an infallible declaration, that says it has to be done this way?

 

[Lujack]

It is never a sin to do as you are told when the person telling you has the right to tell you what to do, but at the same time - is it edifying? If it wouldn’t be good to do this in real life, then why should we do it “in pretend”?

Well, I think this is our major disagreement. I think it is edifying to do in pretend, because it puts a sharper point on the issue. But I think we can agree to disagree on this one, no?

 

[KathleenElsie]

One year my little granddaughter started crying and sobbing. She was only three and thought SHE killed Jesus. So yes I also dislike this.

 

[dcb188]

I don’t see the connection between reading a script, e.g. the part of The Crowd, and feeling the same way they did. In a stage drama, would you feel like a murderer if you said the words spoken by “the murderer”? I think not. Would you have murder in your heart? I think not. Suppose you played the part of the Pope in a drama. Would you actually be the Pope. I would quite emphatically state that no, you would not be. You are playing a part, a role, which is not you. Someone has to be The Crowd. A solitary voice from one volunteer would not be a crowd.
To utter words and not believe in them in your own heart, is no contradiction whatsoever. Every actor and actress does the same thing on a daily basis.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t see the connection between reading a script, e.g. the part of The Crowd, and feeling the same way they did. In a stage drama, would you feel like a murderer if you said the words spoken by “the murderer”? I think not. Would you have murder in your heart? I think not. Suppose you played the part of the Pope in a drama. Would you actually be the Pope. I would quite emphatically state that no, you would not be. You are playing a part, a role, which is not you. Someone has to be The Crowd. A solitary voice from one volunteer would not be a crowd.
To utter words and not believe in them in your own heart, is no contradiction whatsoever. Every actor and actress does the same thing on a daily basis.

And yet, we are continually being reminded that the Liturgy is not the place for stage dramas, because in the Liturgy, we are supposed to mean the words that we pray and say, to make ourselves spiritually present to the events of the Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

And yet, we are continually being reminded that the Liturgy is not the place for stage dramas, because in the Liturgy, we are supposed to mean the words that we pray and say, to make ourselves spiritually present to the events of the Mass.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, inclusive of the Good Friday Commemoration of the Passion (which is not the Mass), is in God’s time, which is always the present. At every liturgy, the veil between time and space is lifted and we are just much there as the crowds were.

Perhaps this meditation on the First Station may help you:

From the Gospel according to Matthew 27:22-23,26

Pilate said to them, “Then what should I do with Jesus who is called the Messiah?” All of them said, “Let him be crucified!” Then he asked, “Why, what evil has he done?” But they shouted all the more, “Let him be crucified!” So he released Barabbas for them; and after flogging Jesus, he handed him over to be crucified.

MEDITATION

The Judge of the world, who will come again to judge us all, stands there, dishonoured and defenceless before the earthly judge. Pilate is not utterly evil. He knows that the condemned man is innocent, and he looks for a way to free him. But his heart is divided. And in the end he lets his own position, his own self-interest, prevail over what is right. Nor are the men who are shouting and demanding the death of Jesus utterly evil. Many of them, on the day of Pentecost, will feel “cut to the heart” (Acts 2:37), when Peter will say to them: “Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God… you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law” (Acts 2:22ff.). But at that moment they are caught up in the crowd. They are shouting because everyone else is shouting, and they are shouting the same thing that everyone else is shouting. And in this way, justice is trampled underfoot by weakness, cowardice and fear of the diktat of the ruling mindset. The quiet voice of conscience is drowned out by the cries of the crowd. Evil draws its power from indecision and concern for what other people think.

PRAYER

Lord, you were condemned to death because fear of what other people may think suppressed the voice of conscience. So too, throughout history, the innocent have always been maltreated, condemned and killed. How many times have we ourselves preferred success to the truth, our reputation to justice? Strengthen the quiet voice of our conscience, your own voice, in our lives. Look at me as you looked at Peter after his denial. Let your gaze penetrate our hearts and indicate the direction our lives must take. On the day of Pentecost you stirred the hearts of those who, on Good Friday, clamoured for your death, and you brought them to conversion. In this way you gave hope to all. Grant us, ever anew, the grace of conversion.

This was written back ni 2005 by the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. While he does not explicitly mention the reading of the Passion into parts, it is implied that the “crowd” is us.

Furthermore, with all due respect, I believe that you might have a flawed understanding of just what happens during the Proclamatinon of the Passion on both Palm Sunday and Good Friday. This is not a drama. It is real. Each one of us is culpable for what happened to Jesus.

 

[dcb188]

I don’t, for one minute, believe that the Church believes that someone who is reciting the part of The Crowd believes in the words they are reciting. And I am quite sure you don’t either. I would be amazed if anyone on this entire forum believes such a thing.
If a person is that upset at uttering words in a drama, then the best thing to do is simply remain silent. Let others be The Crowd.
Do you think an actor who plays the part of Judas Iscariot in a movie, believes the words he is uttering? or is to be judged for uttering those words? I know you attempted to describe a difference between the Palm Sunday recitations and a drama, but I don’t see the distinction at all. Isn’t it a drama or a drama-like recitation, where various people play the parts? Isn’t that a dramatization, at least, of Palm Sunday events as they occurred. And if you played the part of Pontius Pilate, would it be you yourself who condemned Jesus to death, simply because you uttered the words Pilate uttered long ago?
I think threads like this can go very very far afield. Pretty soon we will be maintaining that leaving the church after a Mass means we are literally and figuratively turning our backs on Jesus! I would hope we would not go that far afield, but I have seen precisely those kinds of things on the forums here.

 

[benedictgal]

I don’t, for one minute, believe that the Church believes that someone who is reciting the part of The Crowd believes in the words they are reciting. And I am quite sure you don’t either. I would be amazed if anyone on this entire forum believes such a thing.
If a person is that upset at uttering words in a drama, then the best thing to do is simply remain silent. Let others be The Crowd.
Do you think an actor who plays the part of Judas Iscariot in a movie, believes the words he is uttering? or is to be judged for uttering those words? I know you attempted to describe a difference between the Palm Sunday recitations and a drama, but I don’t see the distinction at all. Isn’t it a drama or a drama-like recitation, where various people play the parts? Isn’t that a dramatization, at least, of Palm Sunday events as they occurred. And if you played the part of Pontius Pilate, would it be you yourself who condemned Jesus to death, simply because you uttered the words Pilate uttered long ago?
I think threads like this can go very very far afield. Pretty soon we will be maintaining that leaving the church after a Mass means we are literally and figuratively turning our backs on Jesus! I would hope we would not go that far afield, but I have seen precisely those kinds of things on the forums here.

With all due respect, I think that you are missing the point. The proclamation of the Passion is not some sort of drama or a play with four acts. This is not a movie with actors taking the various roles. This is Liturgy, something altogether different. What I think you, and the others who have issue with this, do not realize is that, in some form or fashion, each one of us plays a very real role because of the nature of sin.

We tend to, sadly, whitewash over the issue of sin. Please read this meditation for the Eighth Station:

MEDITATION

Hearing Jesus reproach the women of Jerusalem who follow him and weep for him ought to make us reflect. How should we understand his words? Are they not directed at a piety which is purely sentimental, one which fails to lead to conversion and living faith? It is no use to lament the sufferings of this world if our life goes on as usual. And so the Lord warns us of the danger in which we find ourselves. He shows us both the seriousness of sin and the seriousness of judgement. Can it be that, despite all our expressions of consternation in the face of evil and innocent suffering, we are all too prepared to trivialize the mystery of evil? Have we accepted only the gentleness and love of God and Jesus, and quietly set aside the word of judgement? “How can God be so concerned with our weaknesses?”, we say. “We are only human!” Yet as we contemplate the sufferings of the Son, we see more clearly the seriousness of sin, and how it needs to be fully atoned if it is to be overcome. Before the image of the suffering Lord, evil can no longer be trivialized. To us too, he says: “Do not weep for me, weep for yourselves… if they do this when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?”.

PRAYER

Lord, to the weeping women you spoke of repentance and the Day of Judgement, when all of us will stand before your face: before you, the Judge of the world. You call us to leave behind the trivialization of evil, which salves our consciences and allows us to carry on as before. You show us the seriousness of our responsibility, the danger of our being found guilty and without excuse on the Day of Judgement. Grant that we may not simply walk at your side, with nothing to offer other than compassionate words. Convert us and give us new life. Grant that in the end we will not be dry wood, but living branches in you, the true vine, bearing fruit for eternal life (cf. Jn 15:1-10).

Do you really think that the Jesus was merely addressing the women of Jerusalem? No. These words are for every Christian who hears this Gospel proclaimed.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t, for one minute, believe that the Church believes that someone who is reciting the part of The Crowd believes in the words they are reciting.

We should not say words that we don’t actually mean in our hearts, when we are praying to God. (Or at any other time, either.)

Yes, I am a sinner. Yes, my sins are why Jesus had to die on the Cross. How does adding yet another sin to my pile of sins help the situation?

 

[jmcrae]

Each one of us is culpable for what happened to Jesus.

And we all have sufficient sins to crucify Christ a thousand times over again already, without adding to the pile by standing there and shouting “Crucify him!”

 

[benedictgal]

Here is the prayer from the Ninth Station:

PRAYER

Lord, your Church often seems like a boat about to sink, a boat taking in water on every side. In your field we see more weeds than wheat. The soiled garments and face of your Church throw us into confusion. Yet it is we ourselves who have soiled them! It is we who betray you time and time again, after all our lofty words and grand gestures. Have mercy on your Church; within her too, Adam continues to fall. When we fall, we drag you down to earth, and Satan laughs, for he hopes that you will not be able to rise from that fall; he hopes that being dragged down in the fall of your Church, you will remain prostrate and overpowered. But you will rise again. You stood up, you arose and you can also raise us up. Save and sanctify your Church. Save and sanctify us all.

Again, while Pope Benedict does not specifically state anything about the crowd on Palm Sunday, please note where he says “Adam continues to fall”. All of us descended from Adam. We are of the same flesh and bone as Adam.