Does anyone ever know what they are doing when they sin?

[OneSheep]

He had resolved himself long before going take a drink. He merely drank to make it easier to do what he was going to do

Yes, that very well could happen, he could have wanted to kill his child before being intoxicated. However, he had failed to forgive his child, and was blinded by his resentment. His child is of no value in his eyes, and worthy of death.

If he had forgiven his child, then his mind would have been in the state of truly knowing the worth and value of his child. The blindness is subtle, correct? When I watched a movie the other night, I took some joy in the harsh treatment of the villain. Was I forgiving, empathizing? No, I was in the “justice mode”, wanting punishment. The true “knowing” would have been from a position of understanding the villain’s mindset. The fact is, the villain was not seeing value in her victim, the victim was seen as a threat in her eyes. She (the villain) was coming from a position of despair, in fact.

Now, had the villain understood and forgiven her victim, she would not have subjected the victim to persecution. And if I had been seeing the world through her eyes (which is not so accessible in a movie!) I could have focused on redressing the persecutor’s disorder in a more merciful way than harsh treatment, perhaps. Or, perhaps the punishment meted was appropriate. In either case, I would be coming from a “knowing” position once I see that the persecutor was no different than myself… in a positive light.

In the case of the drunken father, in want of justice, killing his son, it would have been productive for the man to be enlightened as to why his child behaved the way he did. Such an understanding would probably involve seeing that his child did not know what he was doing.

Did I miss anything about the father?

 

[Kei]

It’s not his child who he is punishing, but another person. But if his child would have, he maintains he would have done the same.
When arrested, he is quoted saying, “A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do”, after smoking on his last cigar and letting the cops put the cuffs on him.

 

[OneSheep]

It’s not his child who he is punishing, but another person. But if his child would have, he maintains he would have done the same.

When arrested, he is quoted saying, “A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do”, after smoking on his last cigar and letting the cops put the cuffs on him.

Wow, okay, so not only is he blind, but he has his own masculine identity caught up in serving out such punishment. But Kei, you and I both know that masculinity has no bearing on such behavior.

Is he thinking “I had no choice”? This is the mode of thinking of the common street gangster, that it is the behavior of the other that “caused” his own violent reaction. Again, this is a position of lack of awareness, correct?

 

[Kei]

No, he just thought that’s what he should do.

I should note he actually failed as the cops impeded him, but he’s so obstinate he breaks out of prison purely to punish for the offense to his family he suffered.

In the end he is sentenced to death, which he gladly accepts, after he finished off the one who did something really bad to his family.

I’m really just making this up as I go along.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning, Kei

No, he just thought that’s what he should do.

So, when he said “a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do”, he meant it more generically, it was not like “If I am truly a man, I must take revenge.” He was more in the mode of “I should mete justice by killing this person.”

When I say the word “just” in the context the man did, that means that I am making very simple something that is in actuality quite complex. Let’s start with the word “should” in context. That word in context goes straight to his conscience. He is saying that it is “right” for him to take revenge (seek justice) against his child or whomever he sees deserving of punishment. However, the gospel tells us how to go about seeking justice, and it does not say that we are to go about punishing people on our own, i.e. we are to first talk to the person, then if he does not listen, get another, etc. We have laws to follow, and our Church supports societal laws, generally speaking. Following these laws is what a person with a well-formed conscience would do. Instead, this man is using an untruthful source for his idea of “should”. He believes an untruth. Does a person who believes an untruth to be true know what he is doing?

And again, in order for any person to have the premeditation to do violence to another, empathy has already been blocked in the person’s mind, the other is expendable, worthless (there are some exceptions of course, as in war, depending on the mindset of the soldier). Does a person who has the illusion that someone else is worthless or expendable know what he is doing?

This was the mindset of those who hung Jesus, they did not see his divinity, and they did not see his humanity. In addition, those who wanted the other two men to be crucified did not see the human dignity of those people either. They did not know what they were doing, as Jesus observed.

I should note he actually failed as the cops impeded him, but he’s so obstinate he breaks out of prison purely to punish for the offense to his family he suffered.

In the end he is sentenced to death, which he gladly accepts, after he finished off the one who did something really bad to his family.

Again, he sees the breakout as the “right thing to do”, which originates in his malformed conscience. His “glad” acceptance of the death penalty for himself is a curiosity, but it makes sense. Here is what he could have been thinking:

“Killing that guy was worth dying myself.”

Which is much different than:

“killing that guy was truly right, and society should acknowledge that, and exonerate me.”

This is a person whose mind is a jumble of what he thinks is right and wrong, but he is behaving in the way his gut tells him, to take revenge on the person who has wronged his family. He is blinded by his desire for revenge.

 

[OneSheep]

I’m really just making this up as I go along.

That’s the way to do it! And actually, this man’s mindset is not much different than the crowd who hung Jesus, who He accurately observed did not know what they were doing. There is Christ in everyone, correct? Is there not a human dignity in every person? Yet, when people want to do violence to another, they are not seeing this dignity.

 

[simpleas]

How many people do you know have a perfectly formed conscience?

Being blind to certain things would mean one does not have a perfected conscience, at least that’s how I would understand it.

I don’t think I’ve met anyone with the prayer discipline you describe, granted I don’t know many people, but there maybe people out there with such discipline.

The A&E perfect conscience story doesn’t sit well with me, probably because of how I understand what a perfected conscience would/should mean (not able to sin because the conscience wouldn’t allow it)

 

[OneSheep]

How many people do you know have a perfectly formed conscience?

Well, it would have to encompass a lot of different things, a perfect conscience. I was speaking theoretically. What I am saying is that the conscience itself cannot overcome blindness, at least in the way that I understand how the conscience works.

For example, a person may have a conscience that tells him “Do not use people at their disadvantage for your own gain.” The person is an assistant manager, and really wants a full managerial job. One of his employees is also looking for a better job in the company and has in the past works very hard with great results, but it is the assistant manager overseeing the employee that takes credit for all the advances so that he can pad his resume. What happened?

The asst mgr’s conscience was well-formed, but his own desire for advancement blinded him to the fact that his sight has been muddied by desire. He does not know when he has a problem with his eyes, he does not have the prayerful awareness to realize the blindness has occurred. His lack of ability to see his own blindness is not a problem of the conscience, not in my seeing of the definition of conscience. The conscience is the knowing of right and wrong, not the awareness that he is personally blind. He may even have a rule that says “always be aware” but if a person is blnded by desire for some good, he may have difficulty following his conscience.

 

[simpleas]

Well I would have to disagree that the asst manager has a well formed conscience.

Having a well formed conscience is an ongoing practise I think. The ccc say’s that having a well formed conscience means that one can make the choice to act for the good, and avoid the evil.

But as we know, not many of us can make the perfect choice’s in our life.

So if the conscience is perfected it would mean that the person is no longer blinded by the desire which they seek, they may desire something, but conscience would help them make the good decision and avoid the bad.

 

[OneSheep]

Well I would have to disagree that the asst manager has a well formed conscience.

Having a well formed conscience is an ongoing practise I think. The ccc say’s that having a well formed conscience means that one can make the choice to act for the good, and avoid the evil.

Hmmm. He could have had a well-formed conscience in this aspect. This is all rather heady stuff, and I have no argument against what you are saying, because the aim of the conscience in the human is to make right choices, and we definitely agree on that. However, since this thread is about understanding people, let’s take a look at the CCC and see how this man of good conscience could still sin:

1777 Moral conscience,48 present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil.49 It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

Let’s call the asst mgr “Bill”. If Bill has a very well formed conscience concerning the aspect I mentioned, it could very well “enjoin” him to do good and avoid evil. However, Bill could be imprudent, he could avoid listening to his conscience, or more commonly, his blindness warps the importance of what his conscience is telling him. His desire for the better job warps one aspect of his conscience in favor of something new, such as “I have always supported my employee, so his success is truly a reflection of my support” or something like that. Peripheral rationalizations enter because he is caught up in desire for the better job. He is not thinking about the feelings of his employee, he is totally focused. Have you ever taken the “test” where you are to count how many times a basketball gets bounced on a court, and you totally miss the guy walking right through the middle dressed as a gorilla?

It is the prudent person who listens to his well-formed conscience, as the CCC says. “With the help of this virtue we apply moral principles to particular cases without error and overcome doubts about the good to achieve and the evil to avoid.”

and we have this:

If prudence were merely the knowledge of universal moral principles, we could stop here. But it is much more than that. Prudence requires a sensitivity and attunement to the here and now of the real world of real people. It requires a great deal of experience.
The Virtue of Prudence

(continued)

 

[OneSheep]

This brings us back to “how can we become so ‘attuned’?”. This, to me, is where prayer comes in, and I am talking about the kind of prayer for which prayer is a meditation, we are looking within, watching what is going on in our minds. We can look at the desire itself, and isolate the desire without judging it, but then objectively choose what our conscience is telling us. This is what requires a “great deal of experience”. Without such experience, a person is simply yanked around by emotions and desires. He does not know what he is doing, he is not “attuned” (in the moment) to the real world of real people.

 

[simpleas]

. He is not thinking about the feelings of his employee, he is totally focused.

Therefore his conscience is still developing…I hope!

Yes I think we are agreeing to disagree, or are just looking at it differently, though I think you are more intune to think about blindness more than I.

Have you ever taken the “test” where you are to count how many times a basketball gets bounced on a court, and you totally miss the guy walking right through the middle dressed as a gorilla?

No, it sounds strangely interesting though.

 

[simpleas]

This brings us back to “how can we become so ‘attuned’?”. This, to me, is where prayer comes in, and I am talking about the kind of prayer for which prayer is a meditation, we are looking within, watching what is going on in our minds. We can look at the desire itself, and isolate the desire without judging it, but then objectively choose what our conscience is telling us. This is what requires a “great deal of experience”. Without such experience, a person is simply yanked around by emotions and desires. He does not know what he is doing, he is not “attuned” (in the moment) to the real world of real people.

And if more people looked within, the world would be a better place! :v:t2::+1:t2::love_you_gesture:t2:

 

[OneSheep]

Yes I think we are agreeing to disagree, or are just looking at it differently, though I think you are more intune to think about blindness more than I.

Do you see the significance to the whole aspect of “prudence”? Do you see that “prudence” is functionally equal to the modern vocabulary and practice of “mindfulness”? Mindfulness is now emphasized in public schools in our area, with good results.

 

[simpleas]

Mindfulness would definitely help Bill.

My point was on perfect conscience,(without sounding like a broken record), a perfectly formed conscience would be able to avoid evil, would not be subject to blindness. IMO.

We all could do with practising self awareness, and awareness of others needs.

 

[OneSheep]

My point was on perfect conscience,(without sounding like a broken record), a perfectly formed conscience would be able to avoid evil, would not be subject to blindness. IMO.

Here, try this test. Try to focus, because that is one of the things that emotions do, they focus our attention.

Make sure that you watch the whole video, including the additional comments.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[nodelink]

In the last Chapter of the Bible (Revelation 22), Jesus says that he will repay each one according to what his deeds are…

Yes, we often know much about what we are doing. “The games people play” include much deceit, dishonesty, pretense and hypocrisy.

There will be two eternal states of heaven and of hell and varying degrees of reward and punishment within them. Don’t forget this.

St. Augustine’s adage: “When God rewards my labors, He only crowns His own works in me.” Yes, grace has its place but so does human free will and responsibility

Please be sure not to confuse the particular and the general. Jesus was speaking those words relative to the particular people who had crucified Him. We need to consider all the words of Jesus and ponder his parables. Many of the words of Jesus were words of warning more than words of comfort. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter Jesus promised but the Holy Spirit also comes and convicts people of sin (that they might otherwise overlook or deny).

Use of the NIV Bible in the OP indicates that OP may have non-Catholic background. If so, welcome. Thanks for being here.

 

[OneSheep]

Use of the NIV Bible in the OP indicates that OP may have non-Catholic background. If so, welcome. Thanks for being here.

Good Morning!

Nope, no non-Catholic background! Thanks for the welcome, though. You can see by clicking my icon that I’ve been around on the CAF for awhile.

Yes, we often know much about what we are doing. “The games people play” include much deceit, dishonesty, pretense and hypocrisy.

Okay, the way to confirm your statement is to actually play out a scenario where a person is, for example, deceitful (lying) and knows what he is doing.

Now remember, I am using the word “know” in an all-inclusive way, a way that includes all relevant information.

Would you like to create a scenario, or shall I make one?

 

[PetraG]

This is a matter for the judgment of God, an authority which Our Lord had.

We cannot know this and the only time we need to concern ourselves with it (unless we happen to be a confessor) is when we examine our own consciences. We do know that we choose to do things that are wrong, even if we don’t know the gravity of our offenses. The first question is whether, when we become aware of our culpability by examining ourselves, we repent and ask to be reconciled or don’t. The second question is whether we are willing to be merciful, being as we are so in need of mercy ourselves.

Remember in the depiction of the Last Judgment, Our Lord judged a group as having seen him in need and failing to help him out. Their reaction was not “we are so sorry; forgive us.” Their reaction was denial: “When did we ever…”

 

[OneSheep]

This is a matter for the judgment of God, an authority which Our Lord had.

Good Morning,

I agree that judgment belongs to God, but the aim of this thread is understanding, not judgment.

We cannot know this and the only time we need to concern ourselves with it (unless we happen to be a confessor) is when we examine our own consciences.

We can also address why people sin when trying to understand people, as did St. Augustine, St. Paul, and many others. Through the gift of Understanding, we can forgive at a deeper level.

We do know that we choose to do things that are wrong, even if we don’t know the gravity of our offenses.

Yes, when we do not know the gravity of the offense, we do not know what we are doing. In addition, even though our good conscience says that something is wrong, people are still subject to blindness.

The first question is whether, when we become aware of our culpability by examining ourselves, we repent and ask to be reconciled or don’t. The second question is whether we are willing to be merciful, being as we are so in need of mercy ourselves.

These are great questions, yes!

Remember in the depiction of the Last Judgment, Our Lord judged a group as having seen him in need and failing to help him out. Their reaction was not “we are so sorry; forgive us.” Their reaction was denial: “When did we ever…”

Have you ever read Good Goats: Healing our Image of God by the Linns?