Does anyone here go to a Traditional Mass that is not Sedevecantist, not indult and is in union with Rome?

[Corki]

Not true. Permission would be needed from the pastor or rector of the place, just as for the celebration of any Mass, but not the bishop. The whole purpose of SP was to remove the need for a priest to obtain specific permission from his bishop.

This is a bit of a sticky point. A priest does not need to seek permission from the Bishop, that’s true. But if the Bishop forbids it, as happened in our diocese, the priest is obligated to obey him.

 

[Sabeth123]

Corki,

Why does your bishop forbid it?

 

[Filii_Dei]

Not true. Permission would be needed from the pastor or rector of the place, just as for the celebration of any Mass, but not the bishop. The whole purpose of SP was to remove the need for a priest to obtain specific permission from his bishop.

Did you read my previous post? If what you say is true, then you are suggesting that it is easier for a priest to organise a public celebration of the EF than the OF mass, which makes absolutely no sense in canonical law. For all that I love of the EF, the fact is that Extraordinary Form does not have any special privilege over the Ordinary Form.

You cannot read Summorum Pontificum in isolation. It is not the only item of canon law that exists in the Church. It must be read in the wider context of Holy Tradition, and more specifically the canons of the Church that clearly describe the powers and rights of ordinaries. The point of the Summorum Pontificum is to elevate the availability of the EF mass to the same level as that of the OF mass, so that more of the lay faithful may have access to the graces that abound from the beauty of the EF mass. However, as I have already emphasised before, the EF mass is still subject to the bishop in the same way as the OF mass. If a bishop can order a priest not to celebrate a certain OF mass, or even control the way it is celebrated, why can he not have the same control over the EF mass? Is he not the ordinary, to whom the priests are bound to by their promises of obedience which they gave upon their ordination? Remember, whether it is the EF or OF being celebrated, it is still a mass, and the fact is that it is being celebrated in his territory, and under his authority. This has always been the case, even before the Second Vatican Council.

Summorum Pontificum is not meant to undermine this authority. Instead, it is meant to provide more freedom for the EF to be celebrated. It takes into account the fact that some bishops are more closed-minded to the TLM than others, so it clearly sets out the position of the Catholic Church to welcome the EF with open arms. It gives statutory options for the EF to be celebrated, as well avenues for recourse should the priest or even bishop refuse. It is not meant to ‘liberate’ priests from their obedience to the bishop. The fact that there is an option for recourse to the Ecclesia Dei emphasises the importance of the bishop’s authority in this matter. If the laity, with a willing diocesan priest, could celebrate the EF whenever, wherever, without the permission of the bishop, then why would you need to appeal to the Ecclesia Dei? Hence, one can clearly see that the bishop still retains ordinary jurisdiction on this matter, even if it may be modified by the extraordinary intervention of the Ecclesia Dei (should they choose to intervene).

Of course, I must qualify that what I have just mentioned is only relevant to diocesan priests. Secular regular or religious priests have a certain autonomy from the bishop, so you may find it easier to ask them to celebrate the EF, but that’s a different matter altogether.

In any case, a merry new year one and all.

 

[Filii_Dei]

I noticed that too. I saw the Christmas Vigil mass on TV. I turned it on when they were saying the Credo. At first I thought, hey the Italian is almost the same as the Latin. I kept watching and figured out that it was almost all in Latin. The Pope must have a soft spot for the Latin.

To answer the OP question, yes I attend a weekly Tridentine mass at local parish: St. Therese in Alhambra, CA.

Latin has always been the standard in Vatican Masses. You must not be watching the Christmas and Easter Masses often enough.

 

[Moore11]

Corki,

Why does your bishop forbid it?

I am in a different dioceses than Corki and our Bishop “forbids” it as well.

I am frustrated by this but he is a Bishop in the faith. He does not have to tell why he forbids it. I have heard it is common for Bishops who forbid it to say that it is because they do not have the “numbers” to justify it. I guess that could be. I personally think it is because they do not want to pit one Mass against another or one parish against another.
However in just my parish we have an English Mass, a Spanish Mass, occasionally a Basque Mass, a Polish Mass, a Portuguese Mass and every Sunday a Mass for “teens” (A Mass so exclusionary it is for people within a 7 year age range ) But no Latin mass.

 

[Mike30]

Corki,

Why does your bishop forbid it?

Bishops forbid the Extraordinary Form for different reasons. Some have no Priests who are willing and able to celebrate one. Others may feel it could be devisive pitting the laity against each other. Others may feel there is no demand for it so why do it. Other Bishops feel that the Extraordinary Form does not nourish the spiritual needs of their flocks. A famous west coast Archbishop at one time forbade it completely in his diocese for that very reason. Even after John Paul II issued the indult he allowed exactly one Extraordinary Form Mass to be celebrated per month and it could not be held in a Church. It had other restrictions on it as well.

Some Bishops actively dislike, hate may be too strong of a word, the Extraordinary Form for a multitude of reasons and refuse to allow it.

Trust me, very few Priests are going to go against the wishes or the authority of the Bishop in this area.

As to the Bishop in question I would venture it is for one of the above reasons.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Some Bishops actively dislike, hate may be too strong of a word, the Extraordinary Form for a multitude of reasons and refuse to allow it.

Additionally, some bishops are still wary of the EF as they associate the TLM with the SSPX. This is a very unfortunate misconception that has to be corrected, and what this needs is patience and persistence. We need to change the impression that the TLM is associated with defiance, but instead true obedience to the current Magisterium.

Trust me, very few Priests are going to go against the wishes or the authority of the Bishop in this area.

Well, if there’s some good we can see in this, it’s that at least the virtue of obedience still remains strong, even if liturgical respect may have taken a backseat.

 

[Faithdancer]

There are three parishes in the Diocese of Buffalo which offer the Tridentine Mass: St. Anthony of Padua (downtown Buffalo, Sundays at 9 AM and on holy days of obligation,) Our Lady Help of Christians in Cheektowaga, Sundays at 1:30 PM, and a parish in Cuba, NY (about an hour and a half from me, so the name of the parish escapes me.) All three are diocesan parishes and in full communion with Rome.

I would like to see a Tridentine Mass offered in the northern area of the diocese, to prevent having to drive for half an hour in bad weather, but haven;t figured out who to approach or how to do that to see if there is any interest.

My own parish is actually a consolidated parish, resulting from the consolidation of three parishes, plus the pastor “covers” at a parish thirty minutes from my home parish. He does a great job, and has been a driving force behind getting three different parishes to develop a new identity as a single parish, but the poor man looks exhausted. Privately, I fear for his health. I wouldn’t even think of bringing up this additional project to him unless we had a second priest, which doesn’t look like it’s going to happen anytime soon. It’s a shame, too: Father has an incredibly rich baritone voice when he does any sort of chant, and the church itself is a beautiful, late 19th century structure which would lend itself beautifully to an EF Mass.

So when the spirit moves me, I trundle off half an hour away, usually to St. Anthony’s for an EF Mass. Right now I’m recovering from back surgery, and so am dispensed from attending Mass until my recovery moves along more. I miss Mass, ANY Mass, and watching on TV, even though I’m doing so because I’m essentially a shut-in because of the bad weather (can’t risk a fall on ice with a fresh spinal fusion) just doesn’t cut it for me!

I am not aware of any EF Masses offered by FSSP or SSPX in this diocese.

Half an hour is indeed a huge journey after such a surgery. I pray that you heal up soon, Odile.

 

[Irock104]

We have the Traditional Mass every Sunday at 1:30 and I actually went to my first TLM today. It is very reverent and I like the additional prayers that are not generally found in the OF. I didn’t have too much trouble keeping up. However…(and don’t take this wrong way please) for me there felt there was a disconnect from the people. I.E. the people were not actively a part of the Mass. I welcome anything that others may have to say to help me overcome this feeling!

When it comes to the EF mass, what you put into it is what you get out of it. And just because people aren’t constantly standing up and sitting down or saying responses and playing Simone says with the pastor doesn’t mean that they aren’t participating. The EF allows for a lot of personal prayer and it allows for you to examine yourself. Also you can still follow along, most parishes that celebrate the EF have missals that they will give out for the mass. I know people will disagree, but I find the OF cringeworthy sometimes, and way too invasive. Very rarely is there a quiet moment in a Novus Ordo mass. It almost seems to discourage personal prayer or devotion for the sake of “participating”. That’s just my :twocents: I can see why people prefer the OF, it’s just not something I enjoy personally.

 

[Moore11]

Bishops forbid the Extraordinary Form for different reasons. Some have no Priests who are willing and able to celebrate one. Others may feel it could be devisive pitting the laity against each other. Others may feel there is no demand for it so why do it. Other Bishops feel that the Extraordinary Form does not nourish the spiritual needs of their flocks. A famous west coast Archbishop at one time forbade it completely in his diocese for that very reason. Even after John Paul II issued the indult he allowed exactly one Extraordinary Form Mass to be celebrated per month and it could not be held in a Church. It had other restrictions on it as well.

Some Bishops actively dislike, hate may be too strong of a word, the Extraordinary Form for a multitude of reasons and refuse to allow it.

Trust me, very few Priests are going to go against the wishes or the authority of the Bishop in this area.

As to the Bishop in question I would venture it is for one of the above reasons.

Good post. Except for the idea of an entire diocese where no priest wants to celebrate the EF and this is known to the Bishop so as a favor to his priests he does not allow it.

I dont buy that reason at all. The EF is quite easy to learn and there are nationwide (US) retreats and workshops for priests that offer full and qualified training in a very quick amount of time.

 

[Usige]

There are the two ICRSP parishes in Illinois (Chicago and Rockford) and at least one in Wisconsin (Green Bay) which are exclusively EF.

I understand there is an FSSP parish in Denver or close-by.

You are correct about the FSSP parish. There is Our Lady of Mount Carmel in south Denver (really Littleton) and there is also another FSSP parish in Colorado Spring, Immaculate Conception. Both offer only the EF and they have had good relationships with the local ordinaries. We are blessed to live about halfway between them and make the 40 minute drive to attend the Missa Cantata at Our Lady Of Mt Carmel about once every 6 - 8 weeks. That being said we have not attended much since they started construction on the new church building.

 

[Mike30]

Good post. Except for the idea of an entire diocese where no priest wants to celebrate the EF and this is known to the Bishop so as a favor to his priests he does not allow it.

I dont buy that reason at all. The EF is quite easy to learn and there are nationwide (US) retreats and workshops for priests that offer full and qualified training in a very quick amount of time.

Interestingly enough that is the very reason most often given by the Dioceses. In fact we have several religious on this very forum who have indicated that is one of the primary reasons for not establishing an Extraordinary Form Mass.

 

[Sabeth123]

Amazing to me sometimes how the Traditional. Mass is treated. You would think it was another religion trying to impose faulse ideas with the amount of disregard it gets so often. I just don’t get it.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

I sporadically attend Sunday Mass at St. Therese in Alhambra, CA. It’s the only church that offers the EF every Sunday except for Wilmington in Los Angeles country as far as I’m aware, and Los Angeles county is huge and dense!

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Amazing to me sometimes how the Traditional. Mass is treated. You would think it was another religion trying to impose faulse ideas with the amount of disregard it gets so often. I just don’t get it.

I think we need to be more patient and understanding. If bishops and priests have had to deal with laity coming up with demands for the EF and then complaints about how, where, and whenit happens (which there are lots of examples of), then of course they would be “once burned, twice shy”.

Even here in this diocese where it is relatively widely available (10 or more EF Sunday Masses across 60 some parishes), I have heard stories of people commenting on Father’s pronunciation, gestures, vestments, and altar server training! It has not happened here that I know of, but I can completely understand a priest deciding not to say the EF publically after that!

I do also know (through posting here at CAF) that many dioceses never get to the point of even trying out the EF and I pray that the Extraordinary form will become more widely available within this Year of Faith.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

I think we need to be more patient and understanding. If bishops and priests have had to deal with laity coming up with demands for the EF and then complaints about how, where, and whenit happens (which there are lots of examples of), then of course they would be “once burned, twice shy”.

Even here in this diocese where it is relatively widely available (10 or more EF Sunday Masses across 60 some parishes), I have heard stories of people commenting on Father’s pronunciation, gestures, vestments, and altar server training! It has not happened here that I know of, but I can completely understand a priest deciding not to say the EF publically after that!

I do also know (through posting here at CAF) that many dioceses never get to the point of even trying out the EF and I pray that the Extraordinary form will become more widely available within this Year of Faith.

Yes, more charity from everyone is always a great thing.

 

[Moore11]

Interestingly enough that is the very reason most often given by the Dioceses. In fact we have several religious on this very forum who have indicated that is one of the primary reasons for not establishing an Extraordinary Form Mass.

That may be the reason given but it makes no sense. In my diocese that is one of the reasons given but I know at least 5 priests who have wanted to celebrate the EF and have been told no.

I don not believe there is a diocese anyone can point to that every single priest does not want to ever celebrate an EF.

 

[Corki]

Corki,

Why does your bishop forbid it?

Originally, he said that we had enough EF Masses already (1 regularly said on Sundays that used to be the indult Mass, one on Fridays and one held once a month) and that he didn’t want more.

But then he invited the FSSP into the diocese and they are saying EF Mass every day at a regular parish and are building a parish of their own.

So, who knows why he forbid it but no diocisan prest, as far as I know, has been successful in getting permission to say the EF Mass beyond the three that were in place right after SP came out and one of them was cancelled.

 

[jeannetherese]

Does anyone go to a Traditional Mass (that is not sedevacantist and is in union with Rome) where the OF is not also offered?

Our Archbishop supports a FSSP parish that has church locations in Seattle and Tacoma. We are very blessed.
The FSSP does not own the buildings in which mass is said. Please keep our quest for a permanent home in your prayers. May God bless us all. Amen.

 

[corsair]

Yes, the Pacific Northwest is blessed to have an Archbishop that has invited the FSSP into Seattle and now Tacoma. Thats in the center of the Diocese, which stretches from Canada to Oregon. I live centered between Portland and Seattle. So I have a choice to drive the 120 miles to Seattle (or 75 miles to Tacoma) or the 100 miles to Portland.

Port Angeles has a twice a month Sunday TLM and Bremerton has twice a month on a Tuesday and a Saturday.

There has been a TLM once a month near Toledo but the Archbishop has moved it 40 miles to the south starting this month.

So those of us that are EF advocates wear out lots of cars and burn lots of gas each month.

So be it.