Does anyone here, that believes in God, actually think that God accepts gay marriage?

[josh987654321]

Thank you for posting it.

Thank you.

Josh, no offense taken. Of course the religious teaching authorities you place faith in oppose SS marriage.

Do you know why they oppose it? I assure I don’t oppose same sex marriage simply because my religious teaching authorities do, if the Pope turned around tomorrow and started supporting same sex marriage, I certainly wouldn’t be following suit. In fact, there are many Christians who are (in a misguided/warped view of love) supporting same sex marriage, I understand where it is coming from, but it’s not the answer for our homosexual brothers and sisters.

“The truth will set you free” I absolutely believe this, even if it is a hard truth.

“It’s better to be awakened by a hard truth than lulled to sleep by a seductive lie” - Dr Phil.

There are other Christians along their walks who have a different faith understanding.

True. But are their faith understandings equally as valid as anyone elses? because if so, than you would be subscribing to moral relativism, in which their key slogan is “the ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.”

There are so many men and women who are like Pilate, upon having the truth infront of them (Jesus Christ) they can only think of saying “and what is truth?” as Pilate, they refuse to see the truth because they are afraid, because truth implies obligation, truth implies commitment, truth makes demands, once we acknowldge the truth, living with the status quo becomes much harder.

So the ultimate truth does exist, it’s right infront of us, it’s just been obscured and rejected by many people because they didn’t want to hear it. But remember, as the light uncovers our sins, love is also there ready to cover them. So don’t be afraid.

And obviously with these differences not everyone can ultimately be right on everything.

True.

I think though what I’m going to strive to do today is to heed the words of Pope Francis and not talk about abortion or homosexuality all the time.

Okay, I understand not all the time, but remember, to not talk about it at all would be a big mistake I believe. This would be like burrying your head in the sand and hoping it all goes away and in my experience whether it be study or anything else in my life … it only makes matters worse.

Those who hate Christianity, those who hold it in contempt, those who wish to deal the hardest blow, will always strike you in these places. So if you refuse to talk about it, when they strike, you will be left defenseless.

Not to mention, these issues often open the doors to evangelisation, by exposing the misconceptions people have of the Church when we oppose things like same sex marriage, abortion or euthanasia.

At a BBQ or wherever you are, people are not going to come up to you and say “So I hear Jesus talked about love and mercy, please tell me more.” Instead it will be phrased in the manner of “So I hear the church opposes same sex marriage, abortion, euthanasia etc how can you justify this?”

So if you avoid these issues, people will strike you exactly where they think they can do the most damage. I believe It’s only wise to prepare an answer.

“Evil prevails when good men do nothing” - This is especially true when it comes to abortion and euthanasia. So it would be a big mistake I believe to ignore these issues.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[EasterJoy]

I came to this topic specifically because on December 1st there will be a referendum in my country about gay marriage. I’ll vote against it because I don’t think two people of the same gender can raise a child as emotionally and psychologically developed as a child raised by the opposite genders, for many reasons. Also, one of the reasons for voting against is that voting yes would mark another step towards secularization and rampant liberalism. No gays have tried to isolate themselves from that worldview so far, so I have no reason to believe they will endorse traditional values, or raise their kids in that manner.

As for what the Bible tells us, we must be careful. We mustn’t hate, we mustn’t despise, but we have the right to stand our moral ground. Homosexuality is a sin, homosexual people should abstain if they’re to be a member of the Church. They should accept their biological inability to have children. To be clear, many heterosexual have strayed when it comes to sexual relations, they are worse than a homosexual who abstains. I’m not against homosexual couples having inheritance and hospital visitation rights.

The thing I would like to emphasize is that the Church should condemn all sexual deviancy, a person is not to be condemned based on sexual attraction only, we are all under temptation daily in this modern world. So, I see no reason to reject a homosexual that is chaste. But still, I personally would not prefer that they raise children. Among other things, gay marriages have high dissolution rates and kids raised by single parents are twice as likely to develop all kinds of problems compared to kids raised by two parents. Plus, I don’t think kindly of artificial insemination and surrogate mothers, which gay couples would use to have kids.

It is not necessary to reject the unchaste as persons, whether they are homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual. People with illicit sexual habits still need to work at jobs to feed themselves, they need a place to live, and so on. Neither our temptations nor even our sins rob us of our dignity as persons or our need for human love and kindness. Let us be clear: we ought not use each other’s temptations or sins as an excuse to deny each other loving kindness.

That does not mean that there are no behaviors that society ought not reject. As pointed out in then-Cardinal Bergoglio’s letter on the topic of gay marriage (post 136), the lies of the devil do not deserve to have the protection of law. That does not mean that the people being lied to aren’t real people or that they are well-meaning. It does mean that their intentions must be opposed.

 

[Joseph73]

Simplified version of this whole debate:

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

 

[Rivers23]

It is not necessary to reject the unchaste as persons, whether they are homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual.Let us be clear: we ought not use each other’s temptations or sins as an excuse to deny each other loving kindness.

Of course, but we have to point out that they are committing a sin, do we not?

the lies of the devil do not deserve to have the protection of law. That does not mean that the people being lied to aren’t real people or that they are well-meaning. It does mean that their intentions must be opposed.

Well, that about explains how complicated this whole thing is. I don’t doubt those people have good intentions, but when I see the decadence of their parades and political groups they associate themselves with… It seems like it’s too dangerous to fully condone.

 

[Joseph73]

It seems like it’s too dangerous to fully condone.

It can’t be condoned…at ALL. Why celebrate an affliction that keeps men and women from following natural law through the conjugal act? Gay “pride” is a sham. They should love themselves as persons, but their affliction is nothing to be proud of.

 

[josh987654321]

How will you answer the Lord come judgement day when he say’s “You knew it was wrong, why did you promote this lifestyle (sexual acts of homosexuality) for your homosexual brothers and sisters? didn’t I command you to love your neighbours?”

I don’t know. But I do know that if I condemn my son,

ChizzyWinks, I think i’ll quote exactly what Sy Noe quoted of Pope Francis -

*“A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person.” *- Pope Francis

None want you to condemn your son. We do not condemn the person by exposing the sin.

“If the light uncovers our sins, love is also there ready to cover them.”

And as Bishop Fulton J. Sheen said -

“The deaf who deny they are deaf will never hear; the sinners who deny there is sin deny thereby the remedy of sin, and thus cut themselves off forever from Him Who came to redeem.” - Fulton J. Sheen

Like I said in my post to Sy Noe -

“The truth will set you free” I absolutely believe this, even if it is a hard truth.

And

“It’s better to be awakened by a hard truth than lulled to sleep by a seductive lie” - Dr Phil.

do not accept him as he is and reject any partner he may one day wish to unite with, then I will lose my son.

I’m sorry to hear what you are struggling with, I have never been faced with such a prospect.

I would like to try and start addressing this by saying that, our desires are not who we are, so you do not have to worry about not accepting him as he is, because that is not who he is, he is far, far more than his sexual desires.

I also would ask yourself, are you doing this (supporting his homosexual lifestyle) for him, or for you?

Because I see this same fear played out time and time again with other parents who spoil their children, as they are crippled by the fear of their children rejecting them, peoples number one fear is rejection and even more so if it is someone they love dearly, however I have seen this play out as a great, great detriment to their children, it cripples them.

I wish I could better articulate this.

As long as he is happy (yes, I want him to be happy! Isn’t that terrible!) and he is a good person, with a good heart…shows compassion to people…then I will always stand with him in support. To do anything else would severely damage our relationship. It will be hard for me, but I have to be supportive. He is my flesh and blood, my child.

I have seen some parents on Dr Phil episodes say the very same thing when their children are on drugs.

If no one reading this has a gay child, then honestly, you have no idea what you would do if you found out your son or daughter was gay. You may say you know, but trust me…you do not.

You are right, I do not know, but I do know that if I was in that situation, I would want people telling me exactly what I have said to you, to stop me from encouraging that destructive lifestyle for my child.

Remember -

“If the light uncovers our sins, love is also there ready to cover them.”

And -

“It’s better to be awakened by a hard truth than lulled to sleep by a seductive lie” - Dr Phil.

The truth will set you free, even if it is a hard truth.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Johnny777]

The enemy of our souls, the devil wants to mock our faith in Christ by bringing in an abomination so offensive to God that even, when Abraham tried to hold back the hand of The Lord, he failed to persuade him, to not destroy Sodom and Gomorra.

God has absolutely no patience with the sin of homosexuality because it vandalises his creation from its core. God throughout the Old Testament dealt very harshly with such a cancerous pandemic of the spirit, by moving heaven’s fire down upon the criminals who perpetrated this heinous act against God’s laws and name.

If anyone accepts a homosexual as they are into their church congregation, they have wilfully and brazenly defied God by bringing such an abomination within the body of Christ.

Scripture tells us that evil will exceed towards the end of days and those who hold true to the name of God and his laws will stand to be in his presence in eternity and those that try to circumvent and bring in this abomination will be mercilessly cut off.

This matter is very serious, the enemy is at the gate and you are supposed to defend against this infiltration with your lives.

Revelation 3:8
I know thy works:behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it:for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

May Christ bless you

 

[josh987654321]

Someone name smichhertz on another thread has a great quote in his signature.

“I tell you that you have less to suffer in following the cross than in serving the world and its pleasures.” - St. John Vianney

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Rau]

I don’t know. But I do know that if I condemn my son, do not accept him as he is and reject any partner he may one day wish to unite with, then I will lose my son. As long as he is happy (yes, I want him to be happy! Isn’t that terrible!) and he is a good person, with a good heart…shows compassion to people…then I will always stand with him in support. To do anything else would severely damage our relationship. It will be hard for me, but I have to be supportive. He is my flesh and blood, my child. If no one reading this has a gay child, then honestly, you have no idea what you would do if you found out your son or daughter was gay. You may say you know, but trust me…you do not.

You are NOT called to condemn your son, or his partner, or to reject either of them. You are expected to pray for your son. You are expected to, while not forsaking love, let your son know that you do not endorse homosexual relations because you believe they are wrong. Your son may disagree with you and may be unhappy, but because he loves you, he should respect your view, and NOT “reject” you.

You son has a right to expect unconditional love, but not unconditional positive affirmation for everything he does in life. You seem to be suggesting that if you do not affirm all his actions, your relationship will be irreparably damaged. If you you and your son share a mutual love, the I am sure that will not be the case.

 

[josh987654321]

But of course you shouldn’t reject his partner! You can love and respect his partner, and invite his partner gladly as a guest in your home, without sanctioning any sin. The Church does not ask you to reject anyone! The Good News is that you can live side by side with them, loving them, and allowing the Holy Spirit to convict them. It is not your role to judge.

This does not mean that you should condone homosexual sex. But you don’t have to be abrasive, and you don’t have to make your son’s time around you a living hell. Clarify where you stand, and leave it there.

“Son, I don’t think homosexual sex is good or helpful for you or your partner. But I love you, and I promise not to harp on this issue. If you ever want to talk to me about it, I’m all ears, and I’m not looking for ways to judge you. Now could you please pass the potatoes?”

 

[EasterJoy]

Of course, but we have to point out that they are committing a sin, do we not?

Well, that about explains how complicated this whole thing is. I don’t doubt those people have good intentions, but when I see the decadence of their parades and political groups they associate themselves with… It seems like it’s too dangerous to fully condone.

I think it comes down to that. When the Lord talked about how to correct a brother, there got to be a point were the process had been exhausted and he was to be treated like the unbaptized. It is not the work of a Christian to continue correcting people who have rejected the normal course of fraternal correction. When a lie is being perpetuated, however, then the truth must be defended. This is particularly true for those of us who bear the responsibility of being voting citizens in a democracy and members of a society that allows the free exchange of ideas.

 

[Slaney]

Chizzywinks, I just wanted to say I totally understand what you have said in your posts. I too stopped going to a Catholic church partially for the same reason and reading this forum from behind the scenes played a role as well. And I just wanted to say God bless you and your son and your family. Peace be with each of you.

Being gay and having say cancer are not the same, telling a gay person to refrain from homosexual acts as it’s an offence to God is not the same as saying to a cancer patient, “stop having cancer.”

The gay person can control their tendencies, the cancer patient unfortunately can’t stop themselves from having cancer.

Telling a homosexual person who is active that is wrong is an act of mercy, it could save their soul, " For what does it profit a man if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his own soul " ?

 

[Sy_Noe]

Do you know why they oppose it? I assure I don’t oppose same sex marriage simply because my religious teaching authorities do, if the Pope turned around tomorrow and started supporting same sex marriage, I certainly wouldn’t be following suit.

True. But are their faith understandings equally as valid as anyone elses?

Yes I have some idea why. One can read why on many threads on CAF. It appears to me to be one of the couple of hottest topics talked about all the time by Catholics here.

Part of the nature of faith is believing. But no as I said ultimately everyone’s beliefs obviously can’t be right/valid in the end.

 

[scoobydoo6v92]

Homosexual marriage can never be acceptable because by God’s design he made Adam then Eve. the main reason for marriage is to procreate life. being in a homosexual relationship could never ever lead to children and therefore in that regard there for one could never be that sacrament and secondly it offends God and any sexual act MUST be in the confines of holy matrimony between husband (male) and wife (female) and living together whether heterosexual or homosexual, will most likely lead to sin. So there could be no way that God could condone a homosexual marriage. or cohabitation.

 

[Sy_Noe]

How will you answer the Lord come judgement day when he say’s “You knew it was wrong, why did you promote this lifestyle (sexual acts of homosexuality) for your homosexual brothers and sisters? didn’t I command you to love your neighbours?”

I have a question. Assuming it is sin for the sake of this argument. If a Catholic such as Chizzywinks on her deathbed receives the Sacrament of Anointing or is asked by the Lord on judgment day about this and is not sorry in her heart for how she handled this situation with her son, in the eyes of Catholics is God going to judge/condemn her to eternal separation from Him?

 

[josh987654321]

Yes I have some idea why.

Would you be able to explain why for me please?

One can read why on many threads on CAF. It appears to me to be one of the couple of hottest topics talked about all the time by Catholics here.

It is a hot topic atm, it’s all through the media and is I assume largely the reason why it’s debated so much here, because people wish to have an answer when others attack them because of their faith (that’s why I started discussing it).

All you have to do is youtube/google “same sex marriage” and (majority of the time) anyone who is for it will be praised and anyone who is against it will be condemned and accused of bigotry, homphobia and all sorts of things.

Part of the nature of faith is believing. But no as I said ultimately everyone’s beliefs obviously can’t be right/valid in the end.

Like I said, there are many men and women who are like Pilate, upon having the truth infront of them, they can only think of saying “What is truth?” as Pilate, they are afraid, because truth implies obligations, truth implies commitment, truth makes demands, once we acknowledge the truth, living with the status quo becomes much harder.
Gospel of John:

John 18:28-38

Jesus Is Tried by Pilate

28 It was early in the morning when Jesus was taken from Caiaphas to the building where the Roman governor stayed. But the crowd waited outside. Any of them who had gone inside would have become unclean and would not be allowed to eat the Passover meal.[d]

29 Pilate came out and asked, “What charges are you bringing against this man?”

30 They answered, “He is a criminal! That’s why we brought him to you.”

31 Pilate told them, “Take him and judge him by your own laws.”

The crowd replied, “We are not allowed to put anyone to death.” 32 And so what Jesus said about his death would soon come true.

33 Pilate then went back inside. He called Jesus over and asked, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

34 Jesus answered, “Are you asking this on your own or did someone tell you about me?”

35 “You know I’m not a Jew!” Pilate said. “Your own people and the chief priests brought you to me. What have you done?”

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom doesn’t belong to this world. If it did, my followers would have fought to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. No, my kingdom doesn’t belong to this world.”

37 “So you are a king,” Pilate replied.

“You are saying that I am a king,” Jesus told him. “I was born into this world to tell about the truth. And everyone who belongs to the truth knows my voice.”

38 Pilate asked Jesus, “What is truth?”

As I said in my first post -

The first thing that comes to my mind with the existence of God, is that God must have created us male and female (as for evolution, I don’t believe we evolved from nothing) and as Genesis states.

I believe Jesus perfectly affirmed what a marriage was in these two passages -
Gospels:

Matthew 19:4-6

4 Jesus answered, “Don’t you know that in the beginning the Creator made a man and a woman? 5 That’s why a man leaves his father and mother and gets married. He becomes like one person with his wife. 6 Then they are no longer two people, but one. And no one should separate a couple that God has joined together.”

Mark 10:6-9

6 But in the beginning God made a man and a woman. 7 That’s why a man leaves his father and mother and gets married. 8 He becomes like one person with his wife. Then they are no longer two people, but one. 9 And no one should separate a couple that God has joined together.”

Following from this, I believe that the sexual acts of homosexuality are sinful along with the Catholic Church, because I believe it means to use the bodies organs in a manner in which they were not designed to be used for.

One quick study of the genitalia (biology 101) will tell you that this is not right, I don’t believe it’s rocket science.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

The question asked what we thought God’s opinion of something was. What do we know of the mind of God that is based on our human reasoning and understanding that is not in keeping with revealed truth? On what could we base a personal view, if not on the faith that is preached to us?

But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? And how can people preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring (the) good news!” But not everyone has heeded the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what was heard from us?” Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ. Rom. 10:14-17

I don’t understand what you want from me here. Do you want me to say that it factually makes sense from my perspective? Because it doesn’t.

The Church demands that we assent to her teachings. It doesn’t always give everyone what they need to understand them.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Would you be able to explain why for me please?

I would have been able to explain why Catholics and others believe as you do but you just did. I can also explain to some degree why Christian communities with more of a so to speak liberal bend believe differently. But that’s a topic for another subforum or another Christian forum altogether. So I won’t get into that here.

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t understand what you want from me here. Do you want me to say that it factually makes sense from my perspective? Because it doesn’t.

The Church demands that we assent to her teachings. It doesn’t always give everyone what they need to understand them.

I mean to say that the question was not how this would seem to us, outside the light of faith, as if we were just imagining what we’d believe if we had no sure guidance. The question was not about what we might find by scientific inquiry, if inquiry free from politics were possible in these times. The question was what we believe is God’s mind on this matter. To the extent that we can know that, it requires faith. It goes without saying that it is beyond simple understanding.

 

[Personanongrata]

Yes I can agree with that. Love afterall seems to have been one of Christ’s most important messages. One might argue it was the most important of His commandments along with caring for the poor and the sick. So amen to loving homes for children.