Does DNA evidence disprove Book of Mormon claims?

[Prodigal_Son1]

Where are all the artifacts from the great battles that took place in Europe? Just dust in the wind. We need to remember that archeaology has found weapons of war in south and central america, And I do believe that Mel Gibson’s movie the Apocalypse portrays quite well lamanite life, without him even knowing it.

images.google.fi/imgres?imgurl=http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc268/SenatorJeffSmith/apocalypto.jpg&imgrefurl=http://cinemapedant.blogspot.com/2008/03/apocalypto.html&usg=__CBqyvzTrOOqxeV-oST_2qNOo_MQ=&h=450&w=405&sz=49&hl=fi&start=5&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=WrWoIwq3jeR0xM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dapocalypse%2Bmel%2Bgibson%26hl%3Dfi%26rlz%3D1R2SKPB_fiFI353%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1

How is it coins and other artifacts are found in the Holy land from eras previous to the New Testament era?

 

[Marie5890]

Artifacts are found in the Holy Land??? Really?!?!? You’re kidding me right??

Naw…that can’t be…they should have gone “poooFFF” into history

(healthy dose of sarcasm liberally applied…)

 

[why_me]

JMJ4,
So are you saying that if Gettysburg had not been made a national landmark with efforts to preserve the “evidence”, and if complete freedom of entry and freedom to remove whatever one wanted to remove and freedom to farm the land and cut the trees and do what men do with private property, that in another 1,500 years from right now there would be substantial, reliable and conclusive “evidence” that Gettysburg was a major battlefield from the Civil War?

Yes, that is what he or she is saying. People do not realize that evidence is constantly being destroyed with the passage of time. However, I am not sure that at the time of JS people knew a great deal about the civilizations of central and south american and just how violent they were. To my understanding this is all rather new as evidence is uncovered. The mel gibson movie linked above is a great movie to show just how the book of mormon was when it came to bloodshed .Unless of course, mel did not use any historical evidence for his movie.

 

[why_me]

Artifacts are found in the Holy Land??? Really?!?!? You’re kidding me right??

Naw…that can’t be…they should have gone “poooFFF” into history

(healthy dose of sarcasm liberally applied…)

And do these artifacts prove the divinity of christ? No. Do these artifacts prove that the bible is true? No. Everything in religion is built on faith. Not evidence.

 

[JMJ4]

Yes, that is what he or she is saying. People do not realize that evidence is constantly being destroyed with the passage of time. However, I am not sure that at the time of JS people knew a great deal about the civilizations of central and south american and just how violent they were. To my understanding this is all rather new as evidence is uncovered. The mel gibson movie linked above is a great movie to show just how the book of mormon was when it came to bloodshed .Unless of course, mel did not use any historical evidence for his movie.

No why me, that is not what I am saying.

 

[JMJ4]

ParkerD- Yes, there would still be evidence. Please ParkerD, go on to the website of Biblical Archaeological Review, as I’ve mentioned before, and you would not even think about pursuing this argument.
Artifacts have survived for thousand of years, and no, they have not made Israel a national landmark. Not now, not in the past. People have come along and tromped all over everything, built new things on top of ancient civilizations, etc. Why would people take the time to carefully remove bones, pottery, walls, etc before building new?

Why? Because the artifacts were irrelevant to them and people did not look at artifacts as having value. They would have no way of knowing that SOMEDAY these items would be so important to telling the story of ancient civilizations. If so, they would have pilfered and sold those items as you claim happened to the artifacts relating to the BoM.

What value would the remains of all of the great battles in the BoM have and to whom? You claim people have pilfered, and sold the artificacts. Sold to who? Who had the foresight to know someday these artificacts would have a value? Obviously, things only sell if there is a demand and therefore a value. Besides, if there was such a demand for these items they would have been passed on to heirs or would have been sold to museums.

It is unthinkable to believe for one minute that God would preserve early churches and civilizations of the Old and New Testaments, and quite possibly the burial cloth of Jesus Christ himself (see Shroud.com) then turn around and not leave a shred of evidence about battles, peoples, civilizations, that are supposedly the fulfillment of His Word in the BoM.

History has always told its story through artifacts along with the written and oral word. ALWAYS. Except for the Book of Mormon.

This is what I said.

 

[why_me]

How is it coins and other artifacts are found in the Holy land from eras previous to the New Testament era?

And do these coins prove that the bible is true? No. The book of mormon speaks of civilizations that existed in the new world and artifacts have been uncovered. But let me put it this way. Suppose a sign is found that proclaims a book of mormon city. What would you do? And would that prove the existence of god? It would seem so. But does god want to be proven. I don’t think so.

 

[JMJ4]

And do these coins prove that the bible is true? No. The book of mormon speaks of civilizations that existed in the new world and artifacts have been uncovered. But let me put it this way. Suppose a sign is found that proclaims a book of mormon city. What would you do? And would that prove the existence of god? It would seem so. But does god want to be proven. I don’t think so.

Why wouldn’t God want to be proven?

God has left signs for his believers EVERYWHERE - isn’t he your God too?

 

[Marie5890]

Where are all the artifacts from the great battles that took place in Europe? Just dust in the wind. We need to remember that archeaology has found weapons of war in south and central america, And I do believe that Mel Gibson’s movie the Apocalypse portrays quite well lamanite life, without him even knowing it.

]

Mel Gibson’s movie leads right back to title of the thread. Reminding Mormons of the same problem they continue to have with the BoM. Lack of historical, archeological, scientific evidence that the BoM is a historical account of ancient civilizations in the western hemisphere.

“Does DNA evidence disprove BoM claims”

mDNA shows Native American of both North and South America to be of Mongolian decent. Not Hebrew.

 

[Marie5890]

Why wouldn’t God want to be proven?

God has left signs for his believers EVERYWHERE - isn’t he your God too?

It’s a fair statement that some Mormons would suggest that no, in order to prove one’s faith to God, God would not want to proven.

A test.

Mormons also tend to think of signs as a bad thing. (“an adulterous generation seeks after a sign”)

It’s one of those things I had to unwind my mind from. “Signs =bad” or something similar.

Not that all Mormons believe that, but many do.

Science has to be reject by Mormons, or at least, God changes the results of science to “test one’s faith”

It’s all kind of…well one has to put one’s mind thru Olympic-like gymnastics and hoops…

I am so grateful to God for the Grace He gave me to see that was not what He was about; that He loves me and would never mess with my head, my devotion, my faith.

Im also incredibly grateful for the baptism I receive as an infant. I now know it’s the grace that left on my soul that also aided me and guided me out of the LDS church.

Remember that many Mormons don’t have that benefit. The grace that accompanies a valid baptism.

It’s no wonder to my why it’s hard for them to see thru the BS that is mornonism.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

And do these coins prove that the bible is true? No. The book of mormon speaks of civilizations that existed in the new world and artifacts have been uncovered. But let me put it this way. Suppose a sign is found that proclaims a book of mormon city. What would you do? And would that prove the existence of god? It would seem so. But does god want to be proven. I don’t think so.

Here’s a link to a movie on youtube entitled, ‘The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon’.

That link specifically provides archeological evidences, or lack of, that prove stories from the Bible and presents problems with the Book of Mormon. It’s not made by Catholics, and even though there are some ex-Mormons who participate, there are archeologists that have no vested interest in what’s being discussed, or discovered. Besides the archeological evidences in the Holy land, there are archeological discussions and presentations on the Americas as well.

The movie is 1 hour and 6 minutes long, but well worth the viewing in light of this discussion.

Popcorn for everyone .

 

[Marie5890]

THANKS!



(light on the butter and salt…better yet, kettle corn!)

 

[RebeccaJ]

Where are all the artifacts from the great battles that took place in Europe? Just dust in the wind. We need to remember that archeaology has found weapons of war in south and central america, And I do believe that Mel Gibson’s movie the Apocalypse portrays quite well lamanite life, without him even knowing it.

Just like the “Lord of the Rings” portrays Norman life quite well?

 

[JMJ4]

It’s a fair statement that some Mormons would suggest that no, in order to prove one’s faith to God, God would not want to proven.

A test.

Mormons also tend to think of signs as a bad thing. (“an adulterous generation seeks after a sign”)

It’s one of those things I had to unwind my mind from. “Signs =bad” or something similar.

Not that all Mormons believe that, but many do.

Science has to be reject by Mormons, or at least, God changes the results of science to “test one’s faith”

It’s all kind of…well one has to put one’s mind thru Olympic-like gymnastics and hoops…

I am so grateful to God for the Grace He gave me to see that was not what He was about; that He loves me and would never mess with my head, my devotion, my faith.

Im also incredibly grateful for the baptism I receive as an infant. I now know it’s the grace that left on my soul that also aided me and guided me out of the LDS church.

Remember that many Mormons don’t have that benefit. The grace that accompanies a valid baptism.

It’s no wonder to my why it’s hard for them to see thru the BS that is mornonism.

Marie - Thank you for that incredible insight!
I had a missionary once tell me that God was testing us and that’s why there’s no evidence, etc and I could not understand what he was saying.
I really needed to hear what you had to say on this topic.

 

[aspirant]

Where are all the artifacts from the great battles that took place in Europe?

A lot of them are in museums and at historical sites of different kinds. There are also many artifacts of wars in Israel. The Arch of Titus, for example, located on the Via Sacra in Rome, was constructed in the early 80s by Emperor Domitian to commemorate the capture and sack of Jerusalem in AD 70, which it depicts. Not only have I seen this first century arch depicting the event, I’ve seen some of the artifacts from Jerusalem’s upper city at the time of the battle, which were preserved by debris from later occupation. I’ve also been fortunate to see artifacts from the siege at Masada.

And do these coins prove that the bible is true?

They do verify some things that appear in the Bible. The gospels say that people used coins, and we have coins from that place and time to verify that coins were, in fact, being minted and used. Some of them were minted by Pontius Pilate, whose existence and prefecture of Judea is also verified by other artifacts of the period, like this inscription. Do ancient coins prove God exists? No. But they do inform us that when the Bible speaks of coins being used and Pilate governing Judea, it’s not just something made up of whole cloth.

Just like the “Lord of the Rings” portrays Norman life quite well?

Tolkien resented the Normans for adulterating the English language.

 

[ricko]

To the general reader:

It is important to understand that Nephi, Mormon, and Moroni, as the principal writers of the Book of Mormon, would have used symbols from their cultural background to convey the communication about their lives and their history, with tiny glimpses of their culture. If Nephi was familiar with “linen” as a fabric made of a plant in the Old World where he came from, and passed that word on to his children and others within their culture as they described the plant they had access to (cotton) using the word that they understood meant “cloth made from a plant”, then it would be not only expected but completely logical that Mormon would describe the clothing made from plants in Ancient America as “fine linen” rather than “cotton”. (Some Indian tribes used cotton and weaved cloth from it.)

A similar pattern can be followed with respect to the word “wheat”, meaning “grain”. It likely was maize or the forerunner of maize in Ancient America, but Mormon would use the word from the Old World for grain, which was “wheat”, and certainly would not use the term “maize” or “corn” since those words were not Old World words at all.

How Novel!! Of course they did! Use the name of an item from the Old World to describe an item in the New World that was completly different. What strange people! Anyone else would have realized that they had an entirely different item in front of them and would have come up with a new name!!! But that involves the capability of reasoning, something that was not passed on.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Artifacts are found in the Holy Land??? Really?!?!? You’re kidding me right??

Naw…that can’t be…they should have gone “poooFFF” into history

(healthy dose of sarcasm liberally applied…)

Bob Dylan figured it out.

‘The answer my friend is blowing in the wind…’

 

[why_me]

Here’s a link to a movie on youtube entitled, ‘The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon’.

That link specifically provides archeological evidences, or lack of, that prove stories from the Bible and presents problems with the Book of Mormon. It’s not made by Catholics, and even though there are some ex-Mormons who participate, there are archeologists that have no vested interest in what’s being discussed, or discovered. Besides the archeological evidences in the Holy land, there are archeological discussions and presentations on the Americas as well.

The movie is 1 hour and 6 minutes long, but well worth the viewing in light of this discussion.

Popcorn for everyone .

No vested interest? You must be kidding. The people behind this video are antimormon who spend their entire lives discrediting the lds church. It is sponsored by Living Hope Ministries, a protestant group.

Since you posted this antimormon video you should read the lds rebuttal, to be fair and open minded:

fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology

Now the lds can sit back and also eat popcorn. Of course, it is much more difficult to read a text than to watch a video but it may help you understanding.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No vested interest? You must be kidding. The people behind this video are antimormon who spend their entire lives discrediting the lds church. It is sponsored by Living Hope Ministries, a protestant group.

Since you posted this antimormon video you should read the lds rebuttal, to be fair and open minded:

fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology

Now the lds can sit back and also eat popcorn. Of course, it is much more difficult to read a text than to watch a video but it may help you understanding.

Many of the people in the video were ex-Mormons, as I posted in the original post. There were also Rabbis, who explained the Jewish perspective, that would have certainly had limitations on the Temples that were supposedly built and lineage of priests supposedly ordained. Then there were non-affliated scientists that found proofs in the Holy Land that proved events from the Bible and scientists that could find no proofs from the Book of Mormon. They could date events in the Bible, as those times were written about, but they couldn’t date the Book of Mormon’s events prior to the Book of Mormon being written in the 1800s.

Everyone in this thread and anyone considering LDS should watch the video and I’d even recommend they visit the apologetic links you provided and see how spurious the ‘rebuttals’ are. The evidences are logical and many, just as the lack of evidences are illogical and non-existent.

You and I have had our say, let people visit the links, watch the video, read the rebuttals, decide for themselves and then let them comment on the sources provided on this forum.

 

[Answersplease]

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Everyone in this thread and anyone considering LDS should watch the video and I’d even recommend they visit the apologetic links you provided and

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

Molecular biologist

Simon Southerton, a former LDS bishop and author of Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church said, “I was amazed at the lengths that FARMS went to in order to prop up faith in the Book of Mormon. I felt that the only way I could be satisfied with FARMS explanations was to stop thinking… The explanations of the FARMS researchers stretched the bounds of credibility to breaking point on almost every critical issue”.[99]

FARMS supports and sponsors what it considers to be ‘faithful scholarship’, which includes academic study and research in support of Christianity and Mormonism, and in particular, where possible, the official position of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.[100]

Critic and ex-Mormon Steve Benson (grandson of Ezra Taft Benson) quoted church apostle Neal A. Maxwell as telling him that “one of the purposes of F.A.R.M.S. was to prevent the General Authorities from being outflanked by the Church’s critics.”[101]

[99] ^ Gruss, Edmond C. (2006). What Every Mormon (and Non-Mormon) Should Know. Xulon Press. p. 119. ISBN 1600341632.
[100] ^ BYU College of Religious Education
[101] ^ Web post by Steve Benson at www.exmormon.org - see subsection “Neal A. Maxwell” - [3]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

Critic Matthew Paulsen faults FARMS for limiting peer review to members of the LDS church. He claims that FARMS’s primary goal is to defend the LDS faith rather than to promote truthful scholarship.[98]

[98] ^ Paulson, Matthew A. (2000). Breaking the Mormon Code: A Critique of Mormon Scholarship. Wingspan Press. pp. 27–29. ISBN 1595940677.

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