Does freedom of religion include forcing your religious beliefs on others?

[Elizabeth502]

The only reason to impose this upon private organizations is to make a political point that we, the federal government, can force you to abandon your religious beliefs and there’s nothing you can do about it. That’s it. All this fuss about healthcare is BS. They are only doing this so that they can prove that they can override your religious freedom.

Well I’m not sure about that part of their motivation, but it’s undeniable that a motivation (since liberals speak about this so openly) is to force the entire country to accept that government-supported fornication is a universal right. Not that fornication is a universal right. But that the entire country, through the government distributing financial support, must pay to make it easier for the unmarried to have sex with each other (and for the married to regulate births).

 

[Stephen168]

Abortion is an objective evil. This isn’t about me or you.

I don’t have employees and this isn’t about me.

It is about you and me putting ourselves in the shoes of a faithful Catholic business owner who have never bought birth control for their employees but is being forced to.

Again, would you purchase birth control or abortions for your employees?

 

[iloveangels]

I agree and think this touches upon a larger issue.

Because birth control products are so cheap (often times free), and so readily available, there is absolutely no need to force insurance companies and/or businesses to cover it. None. It isn’t like heart surgery where you can spend tens of thousands of dollars.

The only reason to impose this upon private organizations is to make a political point that we, the federal government, can force you to abandon your religious beliefs and there’s nothing you can do about it. That’s it. All this fuss about healthcare is BS. They are only doing this so that they can prove that they can override your religious freedom.

It’s a political strategy thing. The Catholic population has been part of the left-party’s block for years, and yet, the party has always had trouble with some of the stances of Catholics, believing them to be divisive. Someone in power in the left-party got the idea that they could solidify Catholic support if they “cut out the middleman.” They carefully studied our real behaviors vs. what we say and realized that there is a severe and silently unacknowledged difference between the two, and they identified exactly where that was.

In other words they realized how many Catholics are catholic merely by their cultural identification, exactly because they say one thing and then consistently do another. [And this is precisely not about a few sins; this is about intentionally and consistently saying one thing and doing another which is very common everywhere but also among Catholics. Statistically, in fact, almost identical.] Political operatives in the left-party realized that they might be able to capture the Catholic support without the doctrines or the authoritarian structure. Moreover, they carefully probed what would happen if they poked us precisely at this point, and tailored a plan to do it with maximum effect. That’s really what this is about.

It’s completely political. It’s about getting blocs of people in the bag at the polls without having to deal with their bothersome belief system.

We probably set it off with our noise about pro-abortion legislators getting into Holy Communion lines in the last several elections. And there are a lot of highly placed “catholics” in this administration who I’m sure are aware of the problems, attitudes and poorly-formed beliefs among people in the pews. Also the demonstrated problems with authority in the Church over the abuse crisis probably gave the strategists hope that we wouldn’t be able to hang together with any strength. Also the known fact that many Catholic institutions were already in violation of the Church on birth control helped them to hope that this might work.

If this works, there are other issues that the church has objected to that will be pursued.

It’s actually good strategic politics but it’s completely immoral and disgusting behavior at the same time. It appears that that’s what we’ve come to in this country in the quest for votes. And it appears to be working. We’ll see in November how many Catholics vote for the left-party in the various elections for public office.

 

[Stephen168]

I agree and think this touches upon a larger issue.

Because birth control products are so cheap (often times free), and so readily available, there is absolutely no need to force insurance companies and/or businesses to cover it. None. It isn’t like heart surgery where you can spend tens of thousands of dollars.

The only reason to impose this upon private organizations is to make a political point that we, the federal government, can force you to abandon your religious beliefs and there’s nothing you can do about it. That’s it. All this fuss about healthcare is BS. They are only doing this so that they can prove that they can override your religious freedom.

I sense with this current administration you might be right, but I also think it can be just simple gender politics. Either way Health Care is just a subterfuge.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Healthcare is a right, and nobody is denied treatment based on the ability to pay.

No they just might be sent, sick and bleeding, to an emergency room at another hospital.

 

[MarkInOregon]

No, the insurance company is not going to eat the cost. All costs of heathcare services are worked into the cost of insurance. If an insurance company provides ABCs in some of their plans, all subscribers share the cost whether they have ABC coverage in their package or not. They’re not in the insurance business to go broke. In other words, we’re already paying for it. The only difference is only some people are getting the benefit while others are not. The new mandate makes sure all women have the benefits.

The cost of ABC is shared by those subscribers who packages offer ABC, It is passed on in the form of higher premiums. Those who subscribe to packages without ABC pay a lower premium–it’s lower because ABC is not being paid for. You pay for the coverage you have. Not all coverages and premiums are the same.

 

[lerapt78]

I am quite certain that the inquisition involved converting by the sword.

Would you mind elaborating? Since you claim to be certain?

By insisting that believers freeze their brains outside of Church facilities, and take on the mindset of secularity except in private, suspending belief in God and in God’s universal moral laws.

And protesting Christmas trees in public areas.

and why is only female birth control covered by insurance? why do men have to pay for condoms? It’s not fair! Insurance should cover condoms too.

How sexist!!

 

[MarkInOregon]

Really? Is there any historian that isn’t Catholic that will attest to this? I doubt it.

I would suggest you read some modern scholarship on the Inquistion. I suggest you start with Wikipedia for a synopsis–and then review the list of sources in order to delve deeper. Those sources should then provide you with additional sources. You’ll find plenty of non-Catholic scholars on the subject who are interested in the truth and what the actual evidence shows rather than perpetuating falsehoods and myths. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are also interested in the truth–but the tone I percieve in your post makes me think that you probably are not–if it the actual history does not paint the Church in the dark light you desire.

Peace,
Mark

 

[Stephen168]

That’s one thing that no one’s talked about: the fact that those who don’t have insurance can get free and discounted ABCs, but some religious organizations want the working women who have insurance to not have access to this same benefit.

That’s one thing that no one’s talked about: the fact that those who don’t have jobs can get free and discounted food, but some religious organizations want the working women who have jobs to not have access to this same benefit.

 

[clem456]

That’s one thing that no one’s talked about: the fact that those who don’t have insurance can get free and discounted ABCs, but some religious organizations want the working women who have insurance to not have access to this same benefit.

Maybe I am behind the curve here. I didn’t hear this.
Are there religious organizations trying to ban birth control just for their employees? How can they do that? I thought what a person did on their own dime and time was their own choice in this area. What did I miss?

 

[Rence]

My company pays 100 percent of my employees health insurance … so - tell me again - what part of the premium is paid by my employees ??? …

That’s wonderful that your company pays for 100% of your employee’s health insurance. That’s a rare thing, I’d hold on to that company. I’ve worked for many companies in my work history, and I’ve never had an employer pay more than half of the premiums.

but in truth - you really do not know of which you choose to expound upon … … and you are spreading lot of mis-information …

does that not bother you at all

Nope. I am speaking from my own experiences. So, yeah, I do know what I’m talking about on my end of the world. Like I said, if your company is paying 100% of your health insurance, I’d keep that company, because it’s not typical

 

[Rence]

One problem comes from the larger Catholic entities, which are self-insured. That means they are the ones managing the medical coverage that is being provided to employees. Clearly, in these cases the Catholic institutions are being compelled to directly contribute to conduct that they find immoral - abortion and artificial contraception.

Peace,
Robert

I worked for a rather large Catholic hospital and a smaller Catholic hospital years ago, and my claims were processed through Blue Cross Blue Shield PPO. And I birth control pills were covered with a copay (for the larger hospital, don’t know about the smaller one though), like any other drug in it’s tier.

 

[Rence]

Actually many of the larger Catholic organizations have not been self-insured. Dioceses and diocesan schools have been. However, many of the largest and most prestigious Catholic colleges, hospitals and other Catholic organizations have been using conventional insurance plans all along with birth control coverage. This is one of the big embarrassments in all of this. A lot of them are probably not going to change much, at least in the short term…

Yup, that’s how it was for the Catholic hospitals I worked at years ago. Both had their insurance though BCBS PPO.

 

[Rence]

1 month’s worth of birth control costs $6 at Target in some states, in other Targets it is $9, in Walmart it is $9

This is not just about birth control pills. Not everyone uses birth control pills. They also use IUDs and sterilization, etc.

 

[Rence]

Insurance companies will not be able to charge a deductible or cop pay for the coverage of sterilisation, contraception and abortifiacients. Cost will be added the standard premium everybody has to pay, including those who morally object. If an employee gets their insurance through an employer employer pays, not the employee

I pay for half of my premiums, and always have.

 

[Rence]

Maybe I am behind the curve here. I didn’t hear this.
Are there religious organizations trying to ban birth control just for their employees? How can they do that? I thought what a person did on their own dime and time was their own choice in this area. What did I miss?

No, they don’t want their employees to benefit from a government mandate that says they can have access to certain benefits (benefits made available across the board), while women who don’t have insurance can just get their services and products at no cost to them. That’s why I wish Obama would have just let the women just send vouchers to either the government or directly to the insurance company. That why the employer wouldn’t have a thing to say about it…though I’m sure they would find a way to try. I still don’t get what their beef is, it has nothing to do with them anymore since the mandate puts the responsibility on the shoulders of the insurance company.

 

[SGail]

I agree with Rence about Catholics becoming independent of the government. We should support our own healthcare and education programs so we are not forced to take part in the secular death culture. It would mean we would have to sacrifice a lot of THINGS though. We should be more like the Ancient Church!!

 

[Used2beSherryG]

I also think that the Catholic Church needs to disengage from the government totally and completely. This nonsense about them getting govt funding and then passing it along to CARE, etc has got to stop. Lets stop trying to “get along” with a government that is increasingly hostile to any religion but particularly to the Catholic Church. If the Catholics in name only would just admit they are not longer practicing the Catholic faith we would be left with a much smaller number of people but they would be loyal to the magesterium of the Church and abide by the tenets of our faith. Freedom to practice our religion must be our primary concern. Niggling problems about birth control being provided are not the real main issue are they? Isn’t this really about govt forcing their secular beleifs on the faithful Catholic?

 

[Stephen168]

I agree with Rence about Catholics becoming independent of the government. We should support our own healthcare and education programs so we are not forced to take part in the secular death culture. It would mean we would have to sacrifice a lot of THINGS though. We should be more like the Ancient Church!!

I also think that the Catholic Church needs to disengage from the government totally and completely.

This thread is about the government forcing employers to act against their conscience to purchase a product they believe to be immoral. There are gender feminist Catholics who are feminists first and Catholic second. Their desire to have what they want at no cost to them, blinds them to this simple fact: if you want it, buy it. A faithful 100% Catholic healthcare system would not change this government requirement.

If the Catholics in name only would just admit they are not longer practicing the Catholic faith we would be left with a much smaller number of people but they would be loyal to the magesterium of the Church and abide by the tenets of our faith. Freedom to practice our religion must be our primary concern. Niggling problems about birth control being provided are not the real main issue are they? Isn’t this really about govt forcing their secular beleifs on the faithful Catholic?

Yes, this is about the government forcing its beliefs on faithful Catholics. Catholics believe using birth control is immoral and the government is forcing employers to pay for it. And the sad fact is many supporters of this mandate are Catholic in name only, which makes it difficult for the rest of us.

 

[interestedman]

Yes, this is about the government forcing its beliefs on faithful Catholics.

No, this isn’t about the government forcing its beliefs on faithful Catholics. This is about faithful Catholics forcing THEIR beliefs on people that don’t believe in them and the government not allowing it.