Does G-d Love Satan?

[Little_One0307]

It is not God that sends people to hell. It is through their own choices to reject God, His love, His goodness, and to embrace selfishness, sin, and evil that people are sent to hell. Yes, God is infinite in His love, but it is people, through their free choices, that refuse God’s love and forgiveness. Forgiveness must be freely given and freely accepted.

In addition,** it may very well be that hell is made of God’s love**. Those that choose to reject God’s love hate it, and thus are tortured when exposed to it. To quote Peter Kreeft and Robert Tacelli in their book, Handbook of Catholic Apologetics:

Your Catholic brother in Christ posted this on another thread (this spares me of having to do the work for you)

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=581863&page=2

May be post number 22 on that thread. Catholic Trekkie

I quoted the above thread becuase of the words that I wish to emphasize. Just becuase someone says that it" may very well" be does not mean that something IS.

Thanks for providing the source.

God bless.

 

[smichhertz]

Satan is called the accuser. Do you think he is still accusing Job? And all of the rest of humanity after the fall? He seems to be far more busy than God or Jesus is.

Hi StrawberryJam,

I’m unsure what to make of this post. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with the basic idea that God is love therefore God loves all His creation? Is there a certain point you were trying to make?

Yes, Satan is the accuser and he still accuses night and day and yes, I think he still does accuse. I don’t think I’m answering what you want though.

 

[Mystic_Banana]

yes becuse the devil is god inverted they are two sides of the same coin. in christian thought satan is the universel force of evil and god the universel force of love. go back to genesis after adam and eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil god said now they are as us knowing good and evil. so if god knows evil evil therefore is apart of his being and has acted of the evil side of himself all throughout the bible such as the slaying of the first born of egypt. god is just another name for satan satan is just another name for god.

nah. It’s not quite so dualist as that

 

[DPMartin]

These verses are not about satan, but about the Lord of Babylon, also seen as the personification of the Morning Star (or the planet Venus).

belorg
Thanks for the reply

I don’t know where you get your information at as far as (the planet Venus???). we live here in the earth my friend. If God speaks to man He speak to the men who dwell in the earth, not some place else. Your not going to communicate to that which is not were you are communicating to, it would be senseless to think God does.

In the case of Babylon your are correct to a point. (As far as the context it is written in) There are other scriptures that refer to Babylon. And it is believed by some scholars (Even Rabbinical Scholars) of scripture that Babylon is the same location of the tower of Babel. Wasn’t Nimrod’s government a “one world” government, or all human existence under one ruler? Though the approved scriptures to teach by (Bible) doesn’t directly say that, but some ancient documents studied by scholars do. So what God associates to Babylon, is significant to Jew and Gentile (Judaism and Christianity). Because its referred to in different context, such as the Book of Revelation and other books.

What is the enemy of the Truth, could it be a lie? It is one thing for a person that believes a lie to follow and repeat the lie to others, in the ignorance of the Truth. And it is another thing to be aware of what the Truth is, and lie to those who are not ware of the Truth, in order to deceive them. In order to have them believe and do that which knowing and understanding the Truth would have them do, or not do, and suffer the consequence thereof. The later is understood as the father of lies. The whole scope of that can be seen at the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The serpent was well aware of what God told them, but he sot out what they didn’t know or understand, and told them otherwise. It should also be noted, that when the Lord questioned Adam and Eve, that they would answer Him. There was no question direct to the serpent, and the serpent had no opportunity to answer for his deed, or himself.

Granted it is easy to challenge some one’s knowledge of Scripture considering there is a whole lot of Scripture, that can seem to even be contradictory, but its not contradictory. But nothing can challenge the Truth is the Presence of the Truth. (Note no speech from the serpent) but the deceiver does challenge one’s knowledge and understanding of the Truth of God.

 

[belorg]

belorg
Thanks for the reply

I don’t know where you get your information at as far as (the planet Venus???). we live here in the earth my friend.

Lucifer is a personification of the Morning Star, which is the same as the Evening Star, which, in fact, is no star at all, but the planet Venus, visible from earth as a bright spot of light, in fact only the sun and the moon are brighter. So, that where i get my information, or do you think the fact that we are on earthmeans we cannot speak of the sun or the moon either. After all, we are farther from the sun than we are of the planet Venus.

If God speaks to man He speak to the men who dwell in the earth, not some place else. Your not going to communicate to that which is not were you are communicating to, it would be senseless to think God does.

FYI, the infromation in the Bible is information from men who would have known (and demonstrably did know) the planet Venus, and it is not driecrted at inhabitants of the planet Venus.

In the case of Babylon your are correct to a point. (As far as the context it is written in) There are other scriptures that refer to Babylon. And it is believed by some scholars (Even Rabbinical Scholars) of scripture that Babylon is the same location of the tower of Babel. Wasn’t Nimrod’s government a “one world” government, or all human existence under one ruler? Though the approved scriptures to teach by (Bible) doesn’t directly say that, but some ancient documents studied by scholars do. So what God associates to Babylon, is significant to Jew and Gentile (Judaism and Christianity). Because its referred to in different context, such as the Book of Revelation and other books

.

In what way does that mean that Satan as a fallen angel is a product of Meltzerboys Jewish religion?

What is the enemy of the Truth, could it be a lie? It is one thing for a person that believes a lie to follow and repeat the lie to others, in the ignorance of the Truth. And it is another thing to be aware of what the Truth is, and lie to those who are not ware of the Truth, in order to deceive them. In order to have them believe and do that which knowing and understanding the Truth would have them do, or not do, and suffer the consequence thereof. The later is understood as the father of lies. The whole scope of that can be seen at the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The serpent was well aware of what God told them, but he sot out what they didn’t know or understand, and told them otherwise. It should also be noted, that when the Lord questioned Adam and Eve, that they would answer Him. There was no question direct to the serpent, and the serpent had no opportunity to answer for his deed, or himself.

Is there any point in this? I fail to see it.

Granted it is easy to challenge some one’s knowledge of Scripture considering there is a whole lot of Scripture, that can seem to even be contradictory, but its not contradictory. But nothing can challenge the Truth is the Presence of the Truth. (Note no speech from the serpent) but the deceiver does challenge one’s knowledge and understanding of the Truth of God.

Have I written something about Scipture being contradictory? It is, without a doubt, but that’s not relevant to this thread, so why bring it up. The point is that the verses you mention in no way mean that Satan is believed to be fallen angel in Judaism. There may be other verses that do say that, but most certainly not the ones you mentioned.

 

[DPMartin]

Lucifer is a personification of the Morning Star, which is the same as the Evening Star, which, in fact, is no star at all, but the planet Venus, visible from earth as a bright spot of light, in fact only the sun and the moon are brighter. So, that where i get my information, or do you think the fact that we are on earthmeans we cannot speak of the sun or the moon either. After all, we are farther from the sun than we are of the planet Venus.

FYI, the infromation in the Bible is information from men who would have known (and demonstrably did know) the planet Venus, and it is not driecrted at inhabitants of the planet Venus.

In what way does that mean that Satan as a fallen angel is a product of Meltzerboys Jewish religion?

Is there any point in this? I fail to see it.

I find your hostility unwarranted, I was not hostile to you in any way.

Now why would God be talking to the planet Venus as though it had a mind of it’s own to be greater then God? That don’t make sense, especially when Babylon is included in the text. And Babylon, the last I checked, and is understood by every one else on this planet, is referred to a city and or empire of people on the earth. The logical conclusion of your statement that Lucifer is the planet Venus, that in the said text God is speaking to a planet. This doesn’t mean that it may be true that in Babylon the god most worshiped may be the planet Venus they called Lucifer. Ether way God speaks to the intension of being greater then God.

Take it, or leave it, most people, Christian and Jews, know and understand that the name Lucifer refers to the devil, satan, so on and so forth.

If you don’t understand why I have said something then common courtesy would obviously be to ask why. And seems to be of your opinion, that we are so lucky to have you around to let us know when something off subject. The subject refers to the devil, so subject matter about the devil that may contribute to the understanding of whether the Lord God cares about the devil or not, would be relevant. Even if its about the nature of what he is.

Have I written something about Scipture being contradictory? It is, without a doubt, but that’s not relevant to this thread, so why bring it up. The point is that the verses you mention in no way mean that Satan is believed to be fallen angel in Judaism. There may be other verses that do say that, but most certainly not the ones you mentioned.

Your paranoid dude, its not about you. I didn’t say you written something about Scipture being contradictory, did I?

 

[Fox]

I’d say God does love Satan, as he loves all sinners. It would be Satan who rejects, and thus does not benefit, from Gods love. It’s odd, the whole difference of position regarding Satan between Christianity and Judaism. Although for humanity, the position doesn’t change very much at all in a practical sense…

Satan isn’t a human so he had different rules to live by. I prefer to use the name Lucifer.

 

[belorg]

I find your hostility unwarranted, I was not hostile to you in any way.

I amnot being hostile. I genuinely do not see your point.

Now why would God be talking to the planet Venus as though it had a mind of it’s own to be greater then God? That don’t make sense, especially when Babylon is included in the text. And Babylon, the last I checked, and is understood by every one else on this planet, is referred to a city and or empire of people on the earth.

Yes, so it isn’t a reference to satan.

The logical conclusion of your statement that Lucifer is the planet Venus, that in the said text God is speaking to a planet.

In Babyloyan mythology, the planet Venus, or the Morning Star was personified as some sort of God, ‘The Bringer of Light’ AKA Lucifer.
The Christian mythology about Lucifer as a fallen anhel probably have the same astrological basis.

This doesn’t mean that it may be true that in Babylon the god most worshiped may be the planet Venus they called Lucifer. Ether way God speaks to the intension of being greater then God.

Yes, because the emperor of Babylon thought he was greater than God and he was brought down.

Take it, or leave it, most people, Christian and Jews, know and understand that the name Lucifer refers to the devil, satan, so on and so forth.

The name Lucifer (in some Bible translations it says ‘Morning Star’ BTW) is , at least in the Isaiah verses, not used to refer to satan.

If you don’t understand why I have said something then common courtesy would obviously be to ask why.

And I politely asked whether there was a point in what you said.

And seems to be of your opinion, that we are so lucky to have you around to let us know when something off subject. The subject refers to the devil, so subject matter about the devil that may contribute to the understanding of whether the Lord God cares about the devil or not, would be relevant. Even if its about the nature of what he is.

May I politely ask you to explain to me how this is relevant?
Meltzerboy said that in judaism, satan is not considerd a fallen angel, to which you replied by citing some Bible Verses, meant to show that the Jews did consider Lucifer to be a fallen angel. But the verses are not about satan, but about the king of Babylon.

Your paranoid dude, its not about you. I didn’t say you written something about Scipture being contradictory, did I?

Never mind.

 

[meltzerboy]

Thanks to all for their interesting and informative comments! The consensus seems to be that G-d does love Satan as He loves all sinners, and that He loves Satan as much as He loves anyone else. The latter view I find a little hard to believe even though I think G-d is supposed to love everyone He created equally according to Catholic teaching. So, just to be sure, G-d loves Satan as much as He loves the Saints, the Pope, and the obedient angels?

 

[DPMartin]

Never mind.

There ya go, God Bless my freind.

 

[DPMartin]

Thanks to all for their interesting and informative comments! The consensus seems to be that G-d does love Satan as He loves all sinners, and that He loves Satan as much as He loves anyone else. The latter view I find a little hard to believe even though I think G-d is supposed to love everyone He created equally according to Catholic teaching. So, just to be sure, G-d loves Satan as much as He loves the Saints, the Pope, and the obedient angels?

meltzerboy

Well, God has given life to all things that live, which would have to be of His Love. And all living things are aware of Him. Hence even satan. But who rejected that which is of God (His Word in His Presence) and seeks to call himself by his own? In the case of satan, how can God Love that which knows God is, and who God is, and lies about who God is, and What God says, in order to deliberately cause death to the Souls in the world, which are of God’s Breath? Unless satan hates that which is of God.

Notice in the Presence of Jesus they would declare Him, Son of God. Why would they do that unless they already knew who He is? Therefore in His Presence they could not lie, but anyone not in the Presence of God, they would lie to.

 

[kildare]

Its a tough question and way over my head but I would like to contribute two things:

Firtsly according to Thomas Aquinas and Maimonides and the principal of “Divine Simplicity” it follows not that the nature of the Almighty is not to be Loving but to be LOVE itself.

Secondly I’ve heard it said that the power of this LOVE has been likened to a fire. To those who enter through the narrow gate, it is a beatic vision; to those who reject it, it is a burning and enternal fire of torment. But the Fire of Love is constant for all.

 

[DPMartin]

meltzerboy

If I may add, it was granted unto satan to be in darkness, separated from the Light and the Presence of God. Human existence requires the Word of God in the Presence of God. So basically satan has stepped out of bounds by deceiving Man, to believe something other than, God’s Word in God’s Presence who, is to be in the Presence of God, in the Light.

When God made the Man, He spoke to the Man, expecting to be heard by the Man, and told the Man to Behold (see).

 

[Mystic_Banana]

Satan isn’t a human so he had different rules to live by. I prefer to use the name Lucifer.

True - does anyone really know what those rules were?

 

[DPMartin]

True - does anyone really know what those rules were?

Mystic Banana

The Way of Life has never changed for anything given, the Life to be in the Presence of God. Which is the Word of God, the Truth of God, in His Presence, for the living. Could it be that the rules have never changed?

 

[nebraskabeth]

I thought I heard or read somewhere that because of their much greater intellect the angels who rebelled knew exactly what they were doing and I suppose can learn nothing more to change their minds effectivly eliminiating the possibility of repentance and foregiveness. It is we matter-bound creatures that have the possibility of change. And even if another person does not accept your love, you do not have to stop loving. God does the only thing left that he can for a soul that rejects him by keeping him in existence. After all, a being that loves himeself to the exclusion of his createor will cling to self even if he is miserable.

 

[DPMartin]

I thought I heard or read somewhere that because of their much greater intellect the angels who rebelled knew exactly what they were doing and I suppose can learn nothing more to change their minds effectivly eliminiating the possibility of repentance and foregiveness. It is we matter-bound creatures that have the possibility of change. And even if another person does not accept your love, you do not have to stop loving. God does the only thing left that he can for a soul that rejects him by keeping him in existence. After all, a being that loves himeself to the exclusion of his createor will cling to self even if he is miserable.

nebraskabeth
If you read the Book of Enoch, you will see were that understanding might come from.

If you have seen the Face of God in His Presence in Glory, and reject, His Word, well what else could be done? For seeing God Himself would have to full revelation of the Truth of God.

 

[jenniferpet88]

I amnot being hostile. I genuinely do not see your point.

Yes, so it isn’t a reference to satan.

In Babyloyan mythology, the planet Venus, or the Morning Star was personified as some sort of God, ‘The Bringer of Light’ AKA Lucifer.
The Christian mythology about Lucifer as a fallen anhel probably have the same astrological basis.

Yes, because the emperor of Babylon thought he was greater than God and he was brought down.

The name Lucifer (in some Bible translations it says ‘Morning Star’ BTW) is , at least in the Isaiah verses, not used to refer to satan.

And I politely asked whether there was a point in what you said.

May I politely ask you to explain to me how this is relevant?
Meltzerboy said that in judaism, satan is not considerd a fallen angel, to which you replied by citing some Bible Verses, meant to show that the Jews did consider Lucifer to be a fallen angel. But the verses are not about satan, but about the king of Babylon.

Never mind.

your insanity is quite profound, i call it insanity because you are trying to tell us what we believe…the story of lucifer is not mythology, stop trying to undermine the thread with your outlandish views of the bible

 

[Mystic_Banana]

Mystic Banana

The Way of Life has never changed for anything given, the Life to be in the Presence of God. Which is the Word of God, the Truth of God, in His Presence, for the living. Could it be that the rules have never changed?

The rules appear to have changed regularly. For Adam and Eve, nakedness was permissable, and Adam was even upbraided for covering his modesty… later on, the rule was that we must cover our modesty! At one point, men could have multiple wives. Later, we are all to be in monogamous relationships! We do not follow many of the rules given to the Jews, because we do not share their covenant - instead, we follow a new covenant! These things, I think, show that we are commanded to follow a developing morality - one that is still developing, and is shaped around us. Similarly, the rules for Angels could very well also have been specific to their situation.

Or, is it that we develop in our understanding of the rules? Maybe that’s closer

 

[DPMartin]

The rules appear to have changed regularly. For Adam and Eve, nakedness was permissable, and Adam was even upbraided for covering his modesty… later on, the rule was that we must cover our modesty! At one point, men could have multiple wives. Later, we are all to be in monogamous relationships! We do not follow many of the rules given to the Jews, because we do not share their covenant - instead, we follow a new covenant! These things, I think, show that we are commanded to follow a developing morality - one that is still developing, and is shaped around us. Similarly, the rules for Angels could very well also have been specific to their situation.

Or, is it that we develop in our understanding of the rules? Maybe that’s closer

Mystic Banana
thanks for the reply

Every season has its time, and every Righteousness has its Glory. And what is Righteous is the fulfillment of God’s Word (which is Righteous) to the Father’s satisfaction, that He sees it good, hence, in His Presence. There is the revelation of His Word, in His Presence “let there be Light” and then the fulfillment of His Word in His Presence “and there was light”

Gen:1:4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

We know that God never changes, but creation changes to accommodate the Presence of God. Jesus Christ is the Truth the Way and the Life of God the Father fulfilled in human existence. According to the Word of God (Jesus is the Word) in God Presence (Holy Spirit). These are facts that we know. Therefore note all the covenants (agreements) between God and Man that God revealed by His Word in His Presence, no man could fulfill to God the Father’s satisfaction. But what we understand as the New Covenant is actually the fulfillment of all other covenants God revealed to men in His Presence, which could only be fulfilled by the Word of God in God’s Presence in the Son of man (human existence).

Therefore that which doesn’t agree to the fulfillment of God’s Word in His Presence, that would seek its own satisfactions would be where? Could it be darkness?

Therefore your example of nakedness, it is shame, and aren’t we covered by the Blood of Jesus Christ? Therefore our lack of what would satisfy the Father in human existence in covered by the Father’s satisfaction in human existence in His Son Jesus Christ forever. God need not see us through Adam, He now sees us through His Perfect Son Jesus Christ, which allows us to be in God the Father’s Presence. And have that shared relationship with the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit that John speaks of in his first epistle.