Does God annihilate the souls of the damned?

[Tomster]

Just to add some fuel to fire, so to speak , consider this:

To ask if God COULD annihilate a creature is merely to ask if God could cut off the supply of existence of any creature. The answer is obvious. The production of every created thing was a free act on the part of God; of course the continuation of that act of creation is a frww act on His part. Annihilatiion would not demand any special activity on God’s part but merely a cessation of His creative activity. In other words, if God were suddenly to become a the static thing modern philosophers are willing to tolerate as divinity, the universe would plunge into nothingness.

It is quite another question to ask whether God WILL annihilate any creature, or all the universe. We have it on faith that God will not annihilate human souls or the angels. But, putting aside the field-glass of faith and squinting at the question with the naked eye of reason we can get a reasonable view of the probable durability of the physical universe. God, in His dealings with the universe, has not, after all, so much choice; He must act either naturally or supernturally, that is, He must operate either within the laws of that universe as laid down by Himself or outside those laws. Within the laws, or naturally, God will certainly not annihilate spiritual substances, such as souls or angels, for the very good reason that there is no absolutely no natural way in which they can be destroyed, there is no natural force capable of their destruction

Supernaturally, or by the operation outside the natural laws, the answer is quite easy. God works miracles to manifest His grace; and annihilation does not manifest grace, in fact, it does not manifest anything, for in itself it is a denial so absolute as to leave not even an echo by which it might be located. It is much more a part of divine power and goodness to preserve and conserve things than to annihilate them by utterly pointless miracles.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Just to add some fuel to fire, so to speak , consider this:

To ask if God COULD annihilate a creature is merely to ask if God could cut off the supply of existence of any creature. The answer is obvious. The production of every created thing was a free act on the part of God; of course the continuation of that act of creation is a frww act on His part. Annihilatiion would not demand any special activity on God’s part but merely a cessation of His creative activity. In other words, if God were suddenly to become a the static thing modern philosophers are willing to tolerate as divinity, the universe would plunge into nothingness.

It may be that God could destroy the wicked merely by ceasing His life giving force but that is not how He is going to do it and I know this because He says how He is going to do it in His word.
Rev.21
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

There is no doubt that the wicked are destroyed. Rom. 6:23 they suffer death Job21:30 doom (destruction) “shall perish” Ps.37:20"perish"

Mal.4:1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Burned up sounds like there won’t be much left.

Ps.37:38"shall be destroyed together" Ps.37:20 will “vanish away” Ps.37:9 “shall be cut off” Ps.62:3 “shall be slain” Ps.145:20 God shall “destroy” them Ps.21:9 "fire shall devour them

It is quite another question to ask whether God WILL annihilate any creature, or all the universe. We have it on faith that God will not annihilate human souls or the angels.

Mal.4
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

But, putting aside the field-glass of faith and squinting at the question with the naked eye of reason we can get a reasonable view of the probable durability of the physical universe. God, in His dealings with the universe, has not, after all, so much choice; He must act either naturally or supernturally, that is, He must operate either within the laws of that universe as laid down by Himself or outside those laws. Within the laws, or naturally, God will certainly not annihilate spiritual substances, such as souls or angels, for the very good reason that there is no absolutely no natural way in which they can be destroyed, there is no natural force capable of their destruction

You’re kidding right? The God who created the universe can’t figure out a way to destroy the wicked? How about Mal.4:1,3 again

Mal.4
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Supernaturally, or by the operation outside the natural laws, the answer is quite easy. God works miracles to manifest His grace; and annihilation does not manifest grace, in fact, it does not manifest anything, for in itself it is a denial so absolute as to leave not even an echo by which it might be located. It is much more a part of divine power and goodness to preserve and conserve things than to annihilate them by utterly pointless miracles.

Ya the only trouble with this reasoning is that God tells us time and again just what will happen to those that rebel against Him. Se my list above.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie did you read the scriptures I posted here? They clearly show two different meanings for the word eternal. I think we do agree on the way eternal is used in the first one. That eternal life means life without end. It’s the second one that I think you are struggling with. Let’s look at another v. in Ex.21:6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

This is talking about the plight of the slave who decides to stay with his master.It says "and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him **for ever. **Does this mean that the servant will serve his master down through the ceasless eons of time and beyond? No, of coarse not. It means that he shall serve his master until he dies. This is the same with the fires of hell they will burn until the fuel for the fire (souls of the damned) are burned up. Then it will go out.

How do you figure that? This scripture is talking about how if a hebrew slave chooses to stay because of his wife and children he shall have his ear pierced which was an ancient symbol of obedience. What does that have to do with eternal life in Christ and accepting Christ and obeying his commandments?

Where do you see being devoted to someone as making them equal to God?? I am devoted to my husband and he is devoted to me. But he does not see me as God or vice- versa. Could you explain how the slave being devoted and obey the law regarding slaves at the time has to do with eternal life in Christ?

 

[rinnie]

Let’s get these on the table

No actually Matt3:12, Mark9:47, and Luke3:17 are the only ones that you cite that talk about unquenchable fire and atho Catholics may think that fire represents a state of seperation from God. The bible uses fire to denote God’s judgement. Unquenchable fire far from meaning eternal simply means that the fire cannot be extinguished by external means. IOW God’s judgement is forever. Now we need to get this clear. The punishment is forever. Rom.6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. That punishment is death. The wicked are burned up forever.

Richard how does fire denote God’s Judgement. How does ANYTHING DENOTE Gods Judgement.

Where do you get that scripture that says fire denotes Gods judgement. Eternal Fire means you choose yourself to be separated from God Forever. How does being separated from God foreve denote God’s judgement?

 

[rinnie]

Richard Rev. 21 When God is referring to the second death, that is death of the soul. Which is simply choosing to not accept Christ in this world and also in the next.

You have until the last breath to accept God in this life and repent and seek God. God will forgive you for any sin if you repent and are truly sorry. What more could God possibly do for you.

You are acting like you want God to take away our free will for something. How is God to blame if he gives you EVERTHING in this world and you choose not to accept it?

 

[rinnie]

Richard here let me show you.

When Jesus died on the Cross what did he say. He said Father into your hands I commemd my Spirit!! That right there proves your body will die buy your Spirit moves on.

Look at the Thief on the Cross. Did they or did they not kill his body. But what did Christ say? Jesus said they can’t kill his soul. How do we know? SImple how was he going to be with Jesus in Paradise then.

Look at acts 7. When they stoned Stephen he FELL ASLEEP. But what did Stephen pray? Lord Jesus receive my SPIRIT!! Proves the spirit moves on.

And the best one yet. Luke12:4 It tells us not to be afraid of the one who kills the body. Because after death there is nothing they can do to you? How could there be something they could do to you if there was no life after death?

The devils edge on us was death of the body because of our sin. But God’s edge was life of the body after death of the body, by giving life of the soul that is everlasting. Jesus beat death. If you do not believe this, then what did he accomplish on the Cross then.

He took away death and made it possible for us to be raised from the dead by our soul and be with him.

We are told to fear God, Why? Simple because we cannot fool him. Be afraid of the one who after killing has the power to cast into GEHENNA!!! Yes I tell you be afraid of that one.

Read Luke 12:49 Richard. Jesus said he came to set the earth on fire and he wish it were already blazing. Baptism Richard is our fire that is started inside of us. IT is our fire to do good and live for the day to meet God face to face. There is no other fire that can burn as deep as that for a Christian.

But a person who rejects Christ has no FIRE inside of him. There is only darkness, no light. Look at Baptism it resembles LIGHT, The light is the Truth the truth is the goodness and the goodness is God.

 

[rinnie]

Here’s the parallel verse in Mark 9:43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Notice the fire here is unquencable. IOW it cannot be extiguished until the fuel for the fire is burned up at which time the fire will die out. What will happen to the souls in the lake of fire? Rev21
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

They will be destoyed forever. The punishing is not forever, but the punishment, which is death, is.

Again the punishment is forever.

Rom.6
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That punishment is death.

I certainly don’t disagree with anything you say here. The unpardonable sin is any sin for which no forgiveness is asked. The punishment for it is death, eternal death, not eternal life in agony.

Heaven is the state of being that God chose for mankind. The state of sin is the unatural state of being that man has chosen.

Rev.21
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

The dwelling place of God in the new heaven and the new earth is with men and God will not abide with sin. He will destroy sin and sinner forever.

Richard you stated when a person dies and does not repent they gain eternal death. I agree. But then you turn around and say eternal death is not eternal life in agony.

So then what you are saying is you can be happy and not be in agony without Christ in your life then right? Because that is once again Richard in direct conflict with scripture.

How could anyone have anything but agony w/o the Grace of God in their life?? Can’t wait to hear this one Richard

 

[rinnie]

Well, not exactly rin. Here’s my comment again.

What I am saying here is that the bible says that the souls that are damned are destroyed forever. That it is inconsistent for a God that is love to torture His beloved creation for all eternity. And Rev. 21:4 says that sorrow pain and crying will be done away with and an eternally burning hell with souls writhing in agony cannot exist and Rev.21:4 also be true.

Another riddle you must show me Richard. How can one have free will but then reject Christ and be his People then. Scripture states they will be HIS PEOPLE and God himself willl always be with them as THEIR GOD.

Now explain to me how someone can reject the Holy Spirit and deny God but then be his People at the same time and accept the Holy Spirit.

Again Richard can’t wait to hear this one

 

[Tomster]

It may be that God could destroy the wicked merely by ceasing His life giving force but that is not how He is going to do it and I know this because He says how He is going to do it in His word.
Rev.21
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

There is no doubt that the wicked are destroyed. Rom. 6:23 they suffer death Job21:30 doom (destruction) “shall perish” Ps.37:20"perish"

Mal.4:1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Burned up sounds like there won’t be much left.

Ps.37:38"shall be destroyed together" Ps.37:20 will “vanish away” Ps.37:9 “shall be cut off” Ps.62:3 “shall be slain” Ps.145:20 God shall “destroy” them Ps.21:9 "fire shall devour them

Mal.4
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

You’re kidding right? The God who created the universe can’t figure out a way to destroy the wicked? How about Mal.4:1,3 again

Mal.4
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Ya the only trouble with this reasoning is that God tells us time and again just what will happen to those that rebel against Him. Se my list above.

I see you are having a little difficulty with the terms natural and supernatural.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Another riddle you must show me Richard. How can one have free will but then reject Christ and be his People then. Scripture states they will be HIS PEOPLE and God himself willl always be with them as THEIR GOD.

Now explain to me how someone can reject the Holy Spirit and deny God but then be his People at the same time and accept the Holy Spirit.

Again Richard can’t wait to hear this one

Someone cannot “reject the Holy Spirit and deny God but then be his People at the same time and accept the Holy Spirit.”

Why do you ask?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I see you are having a little difficulty with the terms natural and supernatural.

What do you mean?

 

[rinnie]

Someone cannot “reject the Holy Spirit and deny God but then be his People at the same time and accept the Holy Spirit.”

Why do you ask?

Simple because you stated a person cannot live their life in eternal agony. Could you explain to me how you come to this understanding?

 

[Big_Dummy]

If you read the resurrection accounts of the righteous and wicked, scripture makes no distinction in the type of body both gets – Matthew 25 for example refers to goats and sheep, but the distinction of who is whom is not made on the body type, but based on works or lack thereof. Then if you read I Cor 15, somewhere around verses 52-55 you learn that the resurrected body can not be destroyed by anything other than God himself(Matthew 10:28). With these facts in mind then these verses makes sense,

Mark 9:42-50 (King James Version)

42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, **into the fire that never shall be quenched: **

**44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. **

45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, **into the fire that never shall be quenched: **

**46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. **

47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Matthew 25:46 (King James Version)

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 25:46 makes if plain that the sheep goes into eternal life and the wicked into eternal torture. The same greek word is used for both “everlasting” and “eternal” above. If you attempt to shorten one, then you will be making the other just as short – this is an argument based on the greek grammar, sentence structure and word choice.

I Cor 15

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

In context, I Cor 15 speaks to the righteous church. The “incorruptible” and “immortality” is extended to the wicked based on the fact that scripture does not indicate that the wicked will recieve a resurrected body that is different from the righteous.

biblegateway.com/topical/Judgment/Nave/

biblegateway.com/topical/topical_searchresults.php?&search=resurrection&searchtype=all

 

[rinnie]

Well, not exactly rin. Here’s my comment again.

What I am saying here is that the bible says that the souls that are damned are destroyed forever. That it is inconsistent for a God that is love to torture His beloved creation for all eternity. And Rev. 21:4 says that sorrow pain and crying will be done away with and an eternally burning hell with souls writhing in agony cannot exist and Rev.21:4 also be true.

Also read what you just said yourself Richard. You said that the bible says the souls that are damned are destroyed forever. Then you say that the bible is inconsistant to the word of God. How can the bible be inconsistent to the word of God whent he Bible is the inspired word of God

As I stated Richard could the inconsistancy be within yourself instead of the word of God? Thats what I’m thinking buddy

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Also read what you just said yourself Richard. You said that the bible says the souls that are damned are destroyed forever. Then you say that the bible is inconsistant to the word of God. How can the bible be inconsistent to the word of God whent he Bible is the inspired word of God

As I stated Richard could the inconsistancy be within yourself instead of the word of God? Thats what I’m thinking buddy

rinnie you need to go back and read my posting again . I do not say what you said I say. Read it again and we will talk. If you are intentionally twisting what I am saying, we probably have an insurmountable communication barrier and it would be pointless to continue this dialogue.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie you need to go back and read my posting again . I do not say what you said I say. Read it again and we will talk. If you are intentionally twisting what I am saying, we probably have an insurmountable communication barrier and it would be pointless to continue this dialogue.

Now Now Richard, you know me better then that by now I HOPE!! I would never do that to you. I like you Richard and have alot of respect for you.

Time to me Richard is too short to intentionally twist someones words. Thats stupid Richard. So let do this, Lets forget what you posted and explain to me in a different way what you are saying. Thats all!!

 

[rinnie]

Richard I don’t know really what you believe. Your posts are confusing me.

So let me ask you this, Point blank!! Do you believe that there is a hell and People will go to hell and be there for eternity. By eternity I mean they will never get out.

 

[1voice]

it is hard for me to imagine a loving God keeping a collection of souls in torment for all eternity. I have wondered if it is all destroyed. I’ve even wondered about a “forgotten dead”.

My understanding is that God stopped Adam and Eve from eating of the tree of life in order to prevent them from being trapped in a state of separation from God for all eternity. God does not want anyone to go to hell. He didnt want Lucifer to go there … Lucifer had the ability to choose … bad choice.

We go from here in this life … to an eternal existence.
This life is provided by God as an opportunity to choose him or to reject him. The Bible states that those who choose to reject God choose torment by default. Jesus illustrated how it works when he told the story of the rich man and the beggar. Both received their eternal circumstances based on their choices in this life … That is why God puts so much emphasis on making the right choices … because they have eternal consequences.

 

[rinnie]

My understanding is that God stopped Adam and Eve from eating of the tree of life in order to prevent them from being trapped in a state of separation from God for all eternity. God does not want anyone to go to hell. He didnt want Lucifer to go there … Lucifer had the ability to choose … bad choice.

We go from here in this life … to an eternal existence.
This life is provided by God as an opportunity to choose him or to reject him. The Bible states that those who choose to reject God choose torment by default. Jesus illustrated how it works when he told the story of the rich man and the beggar. Both received their eternal circumstances based on their choices in this life … That is why God puts so much emphasis on making the right choices … because they have eternal consequences.

I agree with what you are saying. It is in line with what Jesus taught the Apostles. Like I said before if there is no hell or eternal darkness why did Jesus tell us there is. What was the purpose of the Sacraments for free us from our sin. He gave us the gift of his Grace for the forgiveness of sins.

If someone chooses to reject this how can God be to blame. It is written in his word.

And to be perfectly honest why are here? To do the will of God or not? To accept his will or deny it? And if you reject God you reject him. You have the free will to do so.

But how can people think that they can live their whole life and reject him, and not need him in this world, and then turn around and think that would want him in the next.

I mean really what kind of life is it in this world w/o God. I would not even want to Imagine it.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard I don’t know really what you believe. Your posts are confusing me.

So let me ask you this, Point blank!! Do you believe that there is a hell and People will go to hell and be there for eternity. By eternity I mean they will never get out.

Ok, rinnie here is what I posted before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
What I am saying here is that the bible says that the souls that are damned are destroyed forever. That it is inconsistent for a God that is love to torture His beloved creation for all eternity. And Rev. 21:4 says that sorrow pain and crying will be done away with and an eternally burning hell with souls writhing in agony cannot exist and Rev.21:4 also be true.

This seems pretty clear to me. But let me put it another way. I do not believe that there is a place where wicked souls go after death. NOW. The wicked and righteous go into the grave to await the second comming and the resurrection. When Jesus returns the second time, He will recieve the righteous unto Himself. Jn.14:1-3, 1Thess.4:13-17 and other places. At this time the wicked that have died before remain in the grave. The wicked that are alive are killed by the brightness of Jesus comming. The wicked will remain in the grave for one thousand years. during which time Satan will be bound on this earth for that same thousand year period. After this thousand year period, the wicked will be raised to recieve their punishment. At this time Satan will convince the wicked that they can take God’s holy city, The New Jerusalem, and the battle of Armageddon will occur. Of coarse they lose and are thrown into the lake of fire where they will be burned up. The results of this burnning is that they are destroyed FOREVER. They will not live forever in torment. They will die. And this death, known as “the second death” will be forever. Peace and tranquility will pervaid the universe and sin will not be allowed to rise again.