Does God annihilate the souls of the damned?

[rinnie]

The difficulty with the Purgatory interpretation is that St. John Chrysostom specifically states that St. Paul in writing “he shall be saved” leads us to understand such a man will remain in punishment “forever.” Since according to Roman Catholic belief nobody stays in Purgatory eternally (all those in Purgatory are destined for heaven), the place of punishment forever cannot be Purgatory.

St. John Chrysostom in the same passage speaks how St. Paul often uses positive sounding words that have the contrary meaning, and negative words that have a positive meaning. In other words, St. John does not understand St. Paul’s use of “salvation” here in the regular sense of salvation from sin, death and the Devil, but used in the sense that God will not allow someone to be annihilated, and that the person therefore will suffer eternally, as God has “saved” that person’s soul from annihilation.

Not at all. ST Paul is speaking of the souls that at the end of time have been deemed Righteous. But they must enter the final cleansing. If you look at it in a way the Church teaches it does not contradict scripture. You way does you must admit.

According to the CHurch many will be accepted to Christ, which are those who accept him but were not made perfectly holy in this world. That is why the final cleansing is there to make sure they are perfectly Holy so they can enter heaven.

How can someone who rejects Christ be made Holy? They can’t. But can someone who does not reject Christ but still not be perfected in removing all kinds of sin from their mind die before they have accomplished this? THink about it. Of course they can.

Do you have any sin in your life right now that you have not completly gotten rid of. Maybe gossip, being a little jealous of people sometimes. Thinking of cheating once in awhile. That is not being holy, do you not agree? Well thats what Purging of sin is, getting rid of even a throught of sin.

That is why many who WANT to be holy but did not totally accomplish it have the final cleansing. But that is why they get out as you say, simply because this is only a tempory suffering. But I do not see where God is not present in this tempory suffering. He has to be because it is by his grace that this is possible.

But many will continue to live in mortal sin in this world, refuse to repent, refuse to accept God and will go to hell forever the way God said.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard you told me that my Sacraments won’t save me, did you not?

This is exacttly what I said. I did not say “Oh? Then you are saying that Baptism isn’t possible because of the Grace of God.”

You always do this to me Richard, you say something and then when I respond back you get angry with me and say I am putting words in your mouth.

There is an easy fix here rinnie. QUIT PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. You said that I said “Oh? Then you are saying that Baptism isn’t possible because of the Grace of God.”
I never said this nor did I imply it. So quit twisting what I’m saying and we will get along just fine. BTW I’m not angry, a little anoyed, maybe.

And Sacraments are a grace from God. Just because you do not accept them does not take away the Grace that we gain by them.

The sacraments ARE NOT GRACE. Grace is the unmerited gift of salvation that God GIVES to us in His Son Jesus Christ.
Jn.3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In the bible it tells us that to have eternal life in Christ we must eat the body and blood of Christ. Please show me where this scripture does not state that. IF the Eucharist is only a remembrance of Christ then why does Christ say DO THIS. DO what Richard? When Christ says you must eat and drink, Eat and drink what then RIchard? If we are to remember only why did Christ say we MUST eat and drink to have eternal life. How do you feel we do this?

These are all good questions, but are not for this thread.

Marriage is between a women and Man and Christ. I am sorry you cannot see this either. In the Catholic faith when a Man and Women get married their soul’s become united into one with Christ through the Grace of God. What God has joined together. You do not see that as a Grace from God to join to people in love together in the state of Marriage. When there is Marriage in your Church Richard do you say what God has joined together?

Yes we do, but again, Grace is the unmerited gift of salvation through the blood of Christ.

Now Richard explain something to me. You said Baptism is our outward expression in God. Then you say I guess in a SENSE it could be caused by Grace THis makes no SENSE to me whatsoever.

Here’s what I said

Rinnie, my definition of grace is The unmerited gift of salvation manifested in the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Your three examples are 1) Baptism. Baptism I believe is the outward expression of the faith in the grace of God or His sacrifice on the cross and our willingness to die with Christ and be reborn with Him. So I guess in a sense it is caused by grace, because obviously without the cross there would be no baptism. 2) Marraige as you state is a union between two people and God (Christian concept). This one I cannot see a relation to grace at all. I’m sure you see and recognise that people other than Christians validly marry. 3) What you call the Eucharist, I call communion and is the remembrance of the broken body and spilt blood of Jesus and of coarse this can only be done because of grace.

As you can see you have once again misquoted me.

The Sacraments have nothing to do with us and take nothing away from the death on the cross.

I don’t know what this means.

Can you not see Richard the Sacraments were made possible as a RESULT of the death on the cross.

I agree. This is what I have been saying all along. You have been saying that we recieve the grace of God in the sacraments. What I am saying is this is backwards. We have the sacraments because of what Jesus did on the cross (grace)

But lets make this simple. Marriage how can a marriage not be a Grace given to you by God. So you are saying love and marriage are made possible without the Grace of God

We’ve beat this to death rinnie. If you don’t want to talk about the thread topic, let’s just say goodby.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Also I do agree with what you said because of Christ we are cleansed. That is what we call the Sacrament of Baptism. In Baptism we are cleased from the sin of Original sin that could only be made possible by the GRACE of God. IT was because of Adam and Eve that we have Original sin and only because of CHrist that we are cleamsed from it.

I think you may be like Richard and are getting the O.T hades mixed up with the N.T. Hell.

In the O.T. because of original sin no one could enter heaven. SO they were held in hell, hades greek, sheol in hebrew.

This is where I believe Richard is getting his levels of hell now. And yes in the O.T is was that way. The Holy Souls were awaiting the savior in Abrahams bosom. Thats where Lazarus was.(Poor man, Rich man story). This was the first death. But Christ took away the second death, death of the souls when he came down and released them. Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned nor to destroy the hell of dammation, but to deliver the just who had gone before him.

Before Christ all had to enter into hell before the death of Christ. He had to deliver them. BUt as the scripture tells us such is the case for all of the dead rather righteous or evil. BUt now because of Christ there is nothing left for him to deliver us from. It is finished. The souls of the righteous have been released and now there is only one hell for the damned.

But hell was not the same for everyone as scripture shows us. Hell was only death of the body not of the soul for mamy. But the second death, death of the soul is eternal death which would be the souls that were not released and never will be. Go back and read that scripture you will see that some were not suffering those with Abraham they were only awaiting Christ to come a release them. They did not suffer eternal death which is the evil that have death of the soul. The good that were with Abraham were released.

This is where I believe Richard is getting confused. He has a big problem with the O.T I can see that now. No offense Richard I am not being mean. But now the more I talk to you I can see the O.T does not tie into the N.T for you at all. You need to really study how Jesus fulfilled the O.T. and we now have the N.T. Alot of the O.T is fulfilled and over.

Remember this rinnie

This seems pretty clear to me. But let me put it another way. I do not believe that there is a place where wicked souls go after death. NOW. The wicked and righteous go into the grave to await the second comming and the resurrection. When Jesus returns the second time, He will recieve the righteous unto Himself. Jn.14:1-3, 1Thess.4:13-17 and other places. At this time the wicked that have died before remain in the grave. The wicked that are alive are killed by the brightness of Jesus comming. The wicked will remain in the grave for one thousand years. during which time Satan will be bound on this earth for that same thousand year period. After this thousand year period, the wicked will be raised to recieve their punishment. At this time Satan will convince the wicked that they can take God’s holy city, The New Jerusalem, and the battle of Armageddon will occur. Of coarse they lose and are thrown into the lake of fire where they will be burned up. The results of this burnning is that they are destroyed FOREVER. They will not live forever in torment. They will die. And this death, known as “the second death” will be forever. Peace and tranquility will pervaid the universe and sin will not be allowed to rise again.

This is how it is for the people of the OT as well as the NT. Jesus did do away with death, but only for those that BELIEVE in Him. And this will only be realised when this corruption puts on incorruption and this mortal puts on immortality when Christ returns. 1Cor15:53

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

The smoke rising up forever merely means it goes up out of sight. I have given you numerous passages that flat out state that the wicked will be destroyed. If you wish not to accept that,it’s up to you. [SIGN]By the way we are not saved by baptism or any sacrament,[/SIGN] but by faith in the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God.
Jn. 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is what I am disagreeing with you about. You said that yes we are saved by the Grace of God, then you turn around and say we are not saved by any Sacrament.

A Sacrament is the Grace of God. Now how can you say that we are not saved by the Sacraments? You must show me how you can justify this statement.

Where did I EVER say that we have sacraments w/o the Grace of God. Because that is what a Sacrament is for goodness sakes.

Now does a Sacrament save you by the Grace of God? Yes or No Richard.

Why can’t we both be Christians and get past this and move on, why does it have to be if you don’t agree with me I will just not talk to you.

Come on Richard we will never get anywhere with that. Now lets move on. But settle this so we can. If not Richard it will continue to come back again and again. Do you not agree its better to come to a clear understanding of what a Sacrament is first, then agree or disagree.

 

[KathleenGee]

(Richard,

Most truly the sacraments do indeed save us…because the sacraments are visible outward signs of Christ Himself and the grace therein.

When we receive the sacraments…and as a church as He intended…we are receiving Jesus Christ…the Eucharist is a sacrament…!!)

 

[rinnie]

Remember this rinnie

This is how it is for the people of the OT as well as the NT. Jesus did do away with death, but only for those that BELIEVE in Him. And this will only be realised when this corruption puts on incorruption and this mortal puts on immortality when Christ returns. 1Cor15:53

But all I am saying Richard is that is not what the Apostles taught. So if Jesus did away with eternal death how can death be eternal then?

How do you explain this teaching that the wicked and slothful will servants be ordered to depart into the eternal fire into the darkness where men willl weep and gnash their teeth.

You are saying there is no eternal fire, Christ says there is. Where are they going to weep and gnash their teeth forever then? Or are you saying this is not a true scripture and we were lied to or what?

 

[Tomster]

This is exacttly what I said. I did not say “Oh? Then you are saying that Baptism isn’t possible because of the Grace of God.”

There is an easy fix here rinnie. QUIT PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. You said that I said “Oh? Then you are saying that Baptism isn’t possible because of the Grace of God.”
I never said this nor did I imply it. So quit twisting what I’m saying and we will get along just fine. BTW I’m not angry, a little anoyed, maybe.

The sacraments ARE NOT GRACE. Grace is the unmerited gift of salvation that God GIVES to us in His Son Jesus Christ.
Jn.3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

These are all good questions, but are not for this thread.

Yes we do, but again, Grace is the unmerited gift of salvation through the blood of Christ.

Here’s what I said

As you can see you have once again misquoted me.

I don’t know what this means.

I agree. This is what I have been saying all along. You have been saying that we recieve the grace of God in the sacraments. What I am saying is this is backwards. We have the sacraments because of what Jesus did on the cross (grace)

We’ve beat this to death rinnie. If you don’t want to talk about the thread topic, let’s just say goodby.

Richard,

“Search the Scriptures.”

When we read the earliest documents of the Church, we find Christians at once using all sorts of religious behavior. They do not only pray, or propound a moral code - we find them being dipped in water; meeting for common meals of greater or lesser solemnity; laying hands on one another; maintaining the institution of marriage; annointing of sick persons with oil, etc.

We hear expressions such as that we are “saved by means of the Bath of New Birth” (Titus 3:5); that the Holy Spirit, or Grace, is given “by means of the laying on of hands” (2 Timothy 1:6; Acts:8:18). And marriage is spoken of as a “mighty symbol” (Ephesians 5:25).

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

This is exacttly what I said. I did not say “Oh? Then you are saying that Baptism isn’t possible because of the Grace of God.”

There is an easy fix here rinnie. QUIT PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. You said that I said “Oh? Then you are saying that Baptism isn’t possible because of the Grace of God.”
I never said this nor did I imply it. So quit twisting what I’m saying and we will get along just fine. BTW I’m not angry, a little anoyed, maybe.

The sacraments ARE NOT GRACE. Grace is the unmerited gift of salvation that God GIVES to us in His Son Jesus Christ.
Jn.3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

These are all good questions, but are not for this thread.

[SIGN]Yes we do, but again, Grace is the unmerited gift of salvation through the blood of Christ.[/SIGN]

Here’s what I said

As you can see you have once again misquoted me.

I don’t know what this means.

I agree. This is what I have been saying all along. You have been saying that we recieve the grace of God in the sacraments. What I am saying is this is backwards. We have the sacraments because of what Jesus did on the cross (grace)

We’ve beat this to death rinnie. If you don’t want to talk about the thread topic, let’s just say goodby.

BINGO Richard that is what a Sacrament is. An outward sign instituted BY CHRIST to GIVE GRACE.

 

[Tomster]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

BINGO Richard that is what a Sacrament is. An outward sign instituted BY CHRIST to GIVE GRACE.

Exactly!

Thank you!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

This is what I am disagreeing with you about. You said that yes we are saved by the Grace of God, then you turn around and say we are not saved by any Sacrament.

A Sacrament is the Grace of God. Now how can you say that we are not saved by the Sacraments? You must show me how you can justify this statement.

Where did I EVER say that we have sacraments w/o the Grace of God. Because that is what a Sacrament is for goodness sakes.

Now does a Sacrament save you by the Grace of God? Yes or No Richard.

Why can’t we both be Christians and get past this and move on, why does it have to be if you don’t agree with me I will just not talk to you.

Rinnie you just don’t seem to be listening to me. I don’t know how many times I have said this. SACRAMENTS ARE NOT GRACE. Grace is the unmerited gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. WE DO NOT RECIEVE THIS GRACE IN A SACRAMENT. WE RECIEVE IT BY FAITH IN WHAT HE DID FOR US.

Come on Richard we will never get anywhere with that. Now lets move on. But settle this so we can. If not Richard it will continue to come back again and again. Do you not agree its better to come to a clear understanding of what a Sacrament is first, then agree or disagree.

I don’t know how many different ways I can say the same thing rinnie. If you don’t accept what I am saying that’s to bad, but I certainly am not going to change what I know to be the truth because you disagree with it. Can you understand that?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

BINGO Richard that is what a Sacrament is. An outward sign instituted BY CHRIST to GIVE GRACE.

No they are not. Take your eucharist for example. One can and I’m assuming many do recieve that “sacrament” without the slightest amount of faith, but you are saying that you recieve salvation because they merely perform the act of recieving the eucharist. This is not the case. Grace is recieved by faith in what Jesus did period. There is no work on our part that can impute that grace.

 

[Tomster]

No they are not. Take your eucharist for example. One can and I’m assuming many do recieve that “sacrament” without the slightest amount of faith, but you are saying that you recieve salvation because they merely perform the act of recieving the eucharist. This is not the case. Grace is recieved by faith in what Jesus did period. There is no work on our part that can impute that grace.

Richard,

Search the Scriptures

“He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life everlasting and I will raise him up on the last day.” - Jesus of Nazereth

 

[rinnie]

No they are not. Take your eucharist for example. One can and I’m assuming many do recieve that “sacrament” without the slightest amount of faith, but you are saying that you recieve salvation because they merely perform the act of recieving the eucharist. This is not the case. Grace is recieved by faith in what Jesus did period. There is no work on our part that can impute that grace.

Yes Richard you are right on one thing. Grace is given to us by God and by grace we receive Faith. But you are saying we do not have to live our faith then, because by living our faith is how we earn salvation.

If we do not have to perform the act why does Jesus said we do?

Let me show you AGAIN!

What does this scripture mean Richard?

Heb. 10:24 We must consider to rouse one another to love and do good works.

Why Richard? Is your faith going to save you if you refuse to USE it. Is your faith not a Grace given freely to you by God to do his work? If not what is faith Richard. What are you to do WITH it? Nothing.

Because according to the gospel of richard faith there is no grace given to us by living our faith and doing good works. Because according to you Christ did our good words for us then? I do not understand this kind of teaching and it is in direct conflict with the word of God.

The bible states if you do not eat and drink the bread of life there is no life in you. Sorry Richard that is DOING something.

You must Love one another, DOING SOMETHING.

You must OBEY my commands. DOING SOMETHING

You must be BAPTISED DOING SOMETHING

You must CONFESS your SINS DOING SOMETHING.

EVER single commandment given to us by God is DOING SOMETHING.

If you are right and faith means God did it for us, then don’t take the Eucahrist like Christ said dont confess like Christ said. Don’t keep holy the Lords day like Christ said.

Don’t honor your parents like Christ said.

Don’t worry about keeping your marriage vows like Christ said.

Do nothing like Richard said because you cannot earn your salvation that Christ made possible for you to earn. Christ did it for you and you can sit back and chill.

Sorry Richard Christ laid down the Rules and the WORK that we must DO!!

 

[rinnie]

Why must you confess your sin? Simple because when you confess your sin you are forgiven. THis is called the Sacrament of Confession. A Sacrament that by the Grace given to us by God on the cross can forgvie sins. Why confess, simple to accept this free gift to get back into the Good grace of God and to gain even more Grace.

Why Be Baptised. Simple to be free from Original Sin and to receive the Grace from the Holy SPirit to enter our Soul.

Why be married in the Church with the Sacrament of Marriage. SImple to take advantage of this amazing Grace that 2 People receive when they no only stand BEFORE GOD and unite one other they as for GOD To be With them also and RECEIVE HIS BLESSINGS made possible by him in thei SACRAMENT.

WHY receive CONFIRMATION. Simple it is when we CONFIRM our love and faith in Christ and receive a better and greater Grace from his that is made possible by his death.

Why receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Simple because by the power of the Holy Spirit a Man answers his Call from Christ to serve God in his Church. This Grace is given to him by God to speak in HIS NAME.

Why receive the Sacrament of the Sick. Easy becasue God gave the Priest this power by the Holy Spirit to pray upon man to heal him both in mind or soul or both. ITs is Gods will.

Why receive the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Because unless you eat the bread that comes down from heaven there is no life in you.

To deny the Sacraments are to deny Christ.

 

[rinnie]

No they are not. Take your eucharist for example. One can and I’m assuming many do recieve that “sacrament” without the slightest amount of faith, but you are saying that you recieve salvation because they merely perform the act of recieving the eucharist. This is not the case. Grace is recieved by faith in what Jesus did period. There is no work on our part that can impute that grace.

WHY RICHARD? What would be the point to go to Church and receive the Sacrament of the Eucharist if you have no faith and do not believe in Christ?

Why would one waste their time in Church is they do not believe in God?? You make no sense to me once again.

Now do some receive the sacraments and not live their faith the way they should. Of course they do, we are all guilty of that. BUt do you not see that the body of Christ that you receive gives you the GRACE that is needed to accomplish this goal. It is that Holy Spirit that comes into us when we receive him that helps us to use the Grace we receive.

We keep trying Richard. we fail, we confess, we pray, we pick ourself up and we go to Church everyday for some and keep trying and begging for Gods mercy and strength to accomplish what is asked of us. And the Eucharist is FOOD for the SOUL. As the body need bread and water to survive the soul needs the body and blood of Christ.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,

Search the Scriptures

“He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life everlasting and I will raise him up on the last day.” - Jesus of Nazereth

You misunderstand what eat His flesh and drink His blood means.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Yes Richard you are right on one thing. Grace is given to us by God and by grace we receive Faith. But you are saying we do not have to live our faith then, because by living our faith is how we earn salvation.

Rinnie, rinnie, Are you reading what you are posting “But you are saying we do not have to live our faith then, because by living our faith is how we earn salvation.”

When a person goes to work rinnie, they earn thier wages. That is to say after their work is performed, they are OWED their wages, Right? What you are saying here is that we can earn our salvation. If that is true, what you are saying is that salvation is OWED us because of the work we have performed Right?. And also, if this is true, if we can earn our salvation. WHY DID JESUS DIE? Answer these two questions and we can continue.

 

[fred_conty]

This indeed is the most difficult of all mysteries for me to accept- that a person after millions and billions of years is just starting it journey in immense pains. To me it would be so merciful if that person would just slip into nothingness and be over. I have a very difficult time with this. I don’t have trouble believing it. But to realize what that means is so difficult. Especially if that person had been close. I pray everyday that those headed there that day will be given the means to change before they die and go to heaven no matter what they have done. This is really the very worse imaginable concept I could ever have for anyone. Jesus, have mercy on us.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, rinnie, Are you reading what you are posting “But you are saying we do not have to live our faith then, because by living our faith is how we earn salvation.”

When a person goes to work rinnie, they earn thier wages. That is to say after their work is performed, they are OWED their wages, Right? What you are saying here is that we can earn our salvation. If that is true, what you are saying is that salvation is OWED us because of the work we have performed Right?. And also, if this is true, if we can earn our salvation. WHY DID JESUS DIE? Answer these two questions and we can continue.

Sure Richard I would be glad to. When Jesus died on the cross he made it possible for us to be saved. That was not possible before Richard. Why were the RIGHTEOUS held in hades. Why was our Father Abraham held in hades, how about Noah, David all of our Righteous brothers and sister who lived in the O.T. They were Righteous because they did what was asked from them from God.

I will answer your question Richard but you answer mine first. Why did Abraham not go to heaven when he died?

Then I promise I will come back and explain that to you, and then this will all make sense to you.

 

[rinnie]

This indeed is the most difficult of all mysteries for me to accept- that a person after millions and billions of years is just starting it journey in immense pains. To me it would be so merciful if that person would just slip into nothingness and be over. I have a very difficult time with this. I don’t have trouble believing it. But to realize what that means is so difficult. Especially if that person had been close. I pray everyday that those headed there that day will be given the means to change before they die and go to heaven no matter what they have done. This is really the very worse imaginable concept I could ever have for anyone. Jesus, have mercy on us.

I understand what you are saying fred. It is pretty much impossible to believe that someone would choose death over life. But then again look at the world today. Look how many people are doing it.

You see movie stars starving themself. I mean seriously look how thin they look. You must admit that is not normal. Look at how the people with money are so screwed up.

That is because they felt that money would make them happy. But before they would let go of one thin dime and turn to God they will continue to live this way. Now of days they have advisors now Could you imagine to not even have the faith to go into your room and pray or walk into a Church and fall to your knees and repent, but pay someone to fix you.

And it will fail ever time. Simply because these people have no power. Jesus is the only one who can help and he does not charge one dime.

But they continue to go to humans to help them, when all humans can do is listen and give out meds. They cannot see that they turned away from God. See that is the same thing as hell fred.

That burning is no a fire as we see. It is a state of being. A burning need deep down inside of you. That something is missing feeling. That nothing makes me happy. That is what we call hell, being separated from God.

For alot of people not all, the more God gives them, the further they get away from him. ANd when you want to come back to God he makes you also do the work.

And see fred they don’t want to do the work, they got money, So YOU do the work for them, fix them. But see no one can,

In order to get their souls back they have to do the work. GOd has the power to forgvie them, God paid for their souls. But they lost them and only GOd can get them back for them. But now comes God’s way. You must do the work now. THey would have to repent and forego the sin. That means put God first, they would have to change their life stye.

But see the devil uses his greatest weapon of all time. Fear and greed. Before they will give up the money and fame because either greed has overcome them or fear of what they have to lose does they will not repent and choose to life that way. There you have it fred. Hell!! Total separation from God.

When you put something or someone before God and turn to sin you have removed yourself from his Grace. But he left us the Sacaraments here. They are free to receive that help and get our souls back into the hands of God.

But before they will take that chance they refuse to go back with God and what the devil gives them is worth more then their souls.

Many people will choose Greed and Sin over God. They do it everyday.

And you do not have to be rich to do this. Just the rich are in the news more. But Not really I guess. You hear of murders every single day. Drug deals gone bad, cop shootings. Gangs killing oneanother. Just the names you do not know. Only because they are not famous is all. But the same thing. Drugs and money put before God.

My Dad always called these people lost souls. SO see fred this people did slip into nothingless. That are dead. Just talking up air.