Does God annihilate the souls of the damned?

[Richard_Kastner]

Perish means death of the soul. Death of the soul is the same as the tree that bares no good fruit. If a tree bares no good fruit what Good is it.

So you either feed the Tree or you dig up the tree and burn it in the fire so it does not kill the rest of the trees.

That is what we are like. We can be a good tree and produce good fruit, or we can just sit there and rot and die.

So if you are in the state of mortal sin you are a vine on that tree that is dead You either repent and rid yourself of the sin, which would be cutting off the dead limb, Or you continue to sin and live in sin and in darkness for the rest of your life. So the tree either lives or it dies. God gave you that free gift of the Sacrament of Penance to rid yourself of the sin. or you let yourself like the tree die. You have the choice to live or die. God by his cross gave you the free will to choose.

Ya rinnie, how you dune? The name of this thread is “Does God annihilate the souls of the damned?” I’m assuming that means after we are dead. Your analogy of the tree that bears no fruit seems quit appropriate. What happens to that tree when it is cut down and thrown into the fire? Doesn’t it burn up? Isn’t it annihilated forever? I believe that is the same thing that happens to the soul that is damned. Take a look at this passage
Rev.21
Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Would it be possible for an eternally burning hell with souls writhing in agony be possible in the new heaven or the new earth? Especially in light of v. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I don’t think it is.

 

[rinnie]

Ya rinnie, how you dune? The name of this thread is “Does God annihilate the souls of the damned?” I’m assuming that means after we are dead. Your analogy of the tree that bears no fruit seems quit appropriate. What happens to that tree when it is cut down and thrown into the fire? Doesn’t it burn up? Isn’t it annihilated forever? I believe that is the same thing that happens to the soul that is damned. Take a look at this passage
Rev.21
Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Would it be possible for an eternally burning hell with souls writhing in agony be possible in the new heaven or the new earth? Especially in light of v. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I don’t think it is.

Oh My God Richard I think this is History!!! I think we agree on something.

If you are saying what I think you are saying that when a Person dies in mortal sin and refuses to except Christ and chooses sin over Christ and are deemed to hell, they are there forever. Then the miracle has happened and WE AGREE:yup: Am I right? Do we agree?

 

[Holly3278]

There are also other verses that either outright say that the punishment in Hell is forever or imply it:

Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh. And if thy hand, or thy foot, scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.
(Matthew 18:7-8 DRB)

And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink? Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee? Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee? And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me. Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
(Matthew 25:31-46 DRB)

Amen I say to you that all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and the blasphemies wherewith they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.
(Mark 3:28-29 DRB)

Keep in mind that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is also known as the sin of final impenitence:

**1864 **“Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.” There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

There are also many verses that speak of life everlasting or Heaven. If Heaven is forever then why wouldn’t Hell also be forever?

 

[Holly3278]

The Early Church Fathers were also firm on the reality of Hell being everlasting:

“Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him” (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]). - Ignatius of Antioch

If the fire is unquenchable, does this not also mean that it will last forever? Why would it last forever if the punishment is not forever?

“If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment” (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]

“No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments” (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]). - Justin Martyr

“We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire” (ibid., 21). - Justin Martyr

“[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons” (ibid., 52). - Justin Martyr

“Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the** eternal and unquenchable fire**” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]). - Polycarp

“When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world” (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]). - Mathetes

“[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated” (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]). - Athenagoras

That is just a few of the quotations from the Early Church Fathers I found. Here are more:

catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

By the way, any bolding in the quotes is my emphasis only.

 

[BartBurk]

Anybody?

I’m more inclined to hope God figures out a way to save them. That’s probably not too much to hope for. There is a lot of evidence the Greek word Aion which is translated into English as eternal can refer to a limited amount of time. I’m inclined to believe any punishment by God will be a means to correction rather than simply punishment without a saving purpose. I hope everyone at least makes it into purgatory – there may be those who are sufficiently aware of the consequences of their actions to be damned forever, but I haven’t met such an all-knowing human yet.

I am more inclined to believe that eternal refers to the one giving the punishment rather than to the duration of the punishment.

tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

 

[BartBurk]

The Early Church Fathers were also firm on the reality of Hell being everlasting:

“Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him” (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]). - Ignatius of Antioch

If the fire is unquenchable, does this not also mean that it will last forever? Why would it last forever if the punishment is not forever?

“If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment” (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]

“No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments” (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]). - Justin Martyr

“We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire” (ibid., 21). - Justin Martyr

“[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons” (ibid., 52). - Justin Martyr

“Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the** eternal and unquenchable fire**” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]). - Polycarp

“When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world” (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]). - Mathetes

“[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated” (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]). - Athenagoras

That is just a few of the quotations from the Early Church Fathers I found. Here are more:

catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

By the way, any bolding in the quotes is my emphasis only.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for never ending torture for the other guy, but even one day under God’s punishment would seem like an eternity.

 

[Garyjohn2]

Interesting discussion! It seems the damned would be damned for eternity…but the verses in revelation seem to point out that suffering will at one point end.

I have to ask…what is eternity? Since God exists completely outside of time…is it possible that eternity can come to an end? The human understanding of eternity does not allow this. Eternity means for all time. But what about the end of time? Would not that also mean the end of eternity? hmmm…

 

[BartBurk]

Interesting discussion! It seems the damned would be damned for eternity…but the verses in revelation seem to point out that suffering will at one point end.

I have to ask…what is eternity? Since God exists completely outside of time…is it possible that eternity can come to an end? The human understanding of eternity does not allow this. Eternity means for all time. But what about the end of time? Would not that also mean the end of eternity? hmmm…

I think that is part of our problem. We can’t imagine living outside of time. And it’s really hard for us to imagine becoming holy and living in God’s presence outside of time. The beautiful thing is we know God desires that everyone be saved and that none of us perish. He’s going to do everything in His power to get it done working within our free will. So will God win in the end? Or will God lose us because our free will is stronger than God? We don’t have an absolute answer to this because we don’t know who will be saved, but I’m betting on God.

 

[rinnie]

I think that is part of our problem. We can’t imagine living outside of time. And it’s really hard for us to imagine becoming holy and living in God’s presence outside of time. The beautiful thing is we know God desires that everyone be saved and that none of us perish. He’s going to do everything in His power to get it done working within our free will. So will God win in the end? Or will God lose us because our free will is stronger than God? We don’t have an absolute answer to this because we don’t know who will be saved, but I’m betting on God.

Talk about a sure bet, or an ace in the whole

 

[rinnie]

Interesting discussion! It seems the damned would be damned for eternity…but the verses in revelation seem to point out that suffering will at one point end.

I have to ask…what is eternity? Since God exists completely outside of time…is it possible that eternity can come to an end? The human understanding of eternity does not allow this. Eternity means for all time. But what about the end of time? Would not that also mean the end of eternity? hmmm…

Eternity means forever and ever and ever. Never ending. You are promised either eternal life with Christ or eternal death without Christ. Jesus said on the last day he will lift us up and we will never suffer again, never have pain again, every tear will be dried. And we will get to see Jesus face to face there is no end to Eternal life in Christ. If so he would have told us.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Oh My God Richard I think this is History!!! I think we agree on something.

If you are saying what I think you are saying that when a Person dies in mortal sin and refuses to except Christ and chooses sin over Christ and are deemed to hell, they are there forever. Then the miracle has happened and WE AGREE:yup: Am I right? Do we agree?

Well, not exactly rin. Here’s my comment again.

Would it be possible for an eternally burning hell with souls writhing in agony in the new heaven or the new earth? Especially in light of v. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I don’t think it is.

What I am saying here is that the bible says that the souls that are damned are destroyed forever. That it is inconsistent for a God that is love to torture His beloved creation for all eternity. And Rev. 21:4 says that sorrow pain and crying will be done away with and an eternally burning hell with souls writhing in agony cannot exist and Rev.21:4 also be true.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

There are also other verses that either outright say that the punishment in Hell is forever or imply it:

Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh. And if thy hand, or thy foot, scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.
(Matthew 18:7-8 DRB)

Here’s the parallel verse in Mark 9:43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Notice the fire here is unquencable. IOW it cannot be extiguished until the fuel for the fire is burned up at which time the fire will die out. What will happen to the souls in the lake of fire? Rev21
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

They will be destoyed forever. The punishing is not forever, but the punishment, which is death, is.

And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink? Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee? Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee? And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me. Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
(Matthew 25:31-46 DRB)

Again the punishment is forever.

Rom.6
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That punishment is death.

Amen I say to you that all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and the blasphemies wherewith they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.
(Mark 3:28-29 DRB)

Keep in mind that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is also known as the sin of final impenitence:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catechism of the Catholic Church
1864 “Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.” There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

I certainly don’t disagree with anything you say here. The unpardonable sin is any sin for which no forgiveness is asked. The punishment for it is death, eternal death, not eternal life in agony.

There are also many verses that speak of life everlasting or Heaven. If Heaven is forever then why wouldn’t Hell also be forever?

Heaven is the state of being that God chose for mankind. The state of sin is the unatural state of being that man has chosen.

Rev.21
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

The dwelling place of God in the new heaven and the new earth is with men and God will not abide with sin. He will destroy sin and sinner forever.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Interesting discussion! It seems the damned would be damned for eternity…but the verses in revelation seem to point out that suffering will at one point end.

I have to ask…what is eternity? Since God exists completely outside of time…is it possible that eternity can come to an end? The human understanding of eternity does not allow this. Eternity means for all time. But what about the end of time? Would not that also mean the end of eternity? hmmm…

These are really good questions. But I must ask for clarification. You say “Since God exists completely outside of time” Are you saying that God does not exist in time. As for eternity. The bible uses the word as both “without end” and “for a specific time period” For instance Jn3
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The eternal life talked about here is the eternal life in Christ and will be without end.

In Jude we find something else Jude
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Quite obviously the fire discribed here as “eternal fire” is not fire without end because Sodom and Gomorrha are thought to be at the bottom of the dead sea and are not burning at this time. So in this instance context is pretty important to the meaning of the word. The fire talked about here in Jude that consumed Sodom and Gomorrha could be analogous to the fire that will burn the damned at the end of time. It will burn them us and then go out.

 

[rinnie]

Well, not exactly rin. Here’s my comment again.

What I am saying here is that the bible says that the souls that are damned are destroyed forever. That it is inconsistent for a God that is love to torture His beloved creation for all eternity. And Rev. 21:4 says that sorrow pain and crying will be done away with and an eternally burning hell with souls writhing in agony cannot exist and Rev.21:4 also be true.

Ah I knew it was too good to be true.

Okay RIchard let me ask you this. If you say to me Rinnie do not touch this counter there is a short and if you touch it you could be shocked or ever worse be badly hurt for life

Now lets not get into throwing the breaker etc. Now you walk out of the room and I do it anyway. Now I turn around and say its Richards fault. If he loved me he would not have let me do that to myself

Becasue thats what you are saying about God. You are saying that God gave us free will but if he loved us he should not let us use it.

Now scripture CANNOT Contradict Scripture. So either you are wrong or this has indeed happened. Well guess what?

Scripture has not contradicted itself. You do not understand the word of God as it was taught.

Let me show you. Read Rev 21:24 again and you will see the LIGHT!! I HOPE

Lets read together what it says, not what you are trying to make it say.

It says God sahll wipe away their tears and there will be no mourning or pain, But ONLY AFTER the coming of the New Heaven and the Passing away of the Current heaven and earth.

NOTE the ELIMINATION of tears and pain only occurs at the END OF TIME. Now there is no Mourning in Heaven, and God WILL NOT wipe away tears in hell. What is hell Richard TOTAL SEPARATION FROM GOD. So what is the problem here Richard. You have just given us a scripture for a Catholic Teaching which you do not understand, continue to deny, but cannot explain. PURGATORY!!

 

[rinnie]

Now here you Go Richard.

Scripture for ETERNAL HELL.

Matt 3:12 25:41 25:46
Mark 9:47-47
2 Thess 1:6-9
Jude 6-7
Luke 3:17

Need More!! I can get it for you.

It all talks about a UNQUENCHABLE FIRE. Fire means an Eternal State of separation from God.

God gave you free will to accept him or reject him. If you reject him you did it to yoursef. You choose evil over God.

What are you trying to tell me Richard that evil does not exist and evil will enter heaven? Please Evil will never touch heaven. What about he devil then Richard, what you are saying he is going to be good someday. Please!!

So Richard you have continued for over a year to fight the existance of the State of Purgatory and ironicaly continue to teach it

Because are you saying if you go to hell you are getting out someday? Then you have alot of scrpture to throw out Richard.

Rev. 21:4 The old order passed away. That means US Richard the old self has been accomplished in being made Holy and ready to enter everlasting life in Christ.

How could there be eternal life in hell if there there is no eternal life in hell Richard. How can there be Eternal life in heaven with Christ Richard if there is no eternal life with Christ?

You either believe it or you don"t. We believe. If its hell its forever. If it heaven its forever. But we as Catholic believe the word of God that some may have to go through the final cleansing process Rev 21:27 and be made clean which means spiritually perfect to enter heaven. If you have not completed the process of becomming completely holy in this world God and his great mercy has made the process possible for completion after death. But you still must be free from mortal sin. Even though we are deemed Righteous in the name of God we need to be Completely Holy and may need to finish the process in the state of Purgatory with the help of Christ.

 

[rinnie]

These are really good questions. But I must ask for clarification. You say “Since God exists completely outside of time” Are you saying that God does not exist in time. As for eternity. The bible uses the word as both “without end” and “for a specific time period” For instance Jn3
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The eternal life talked about here is the eternal life in Christ and will be without end.

In Jude we find something else Jude
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Quite obviously the fire discribed here as “eternal fire” is not fire without end because Sodom and Gomorrha are thought to be at the bottom of the dead sea and are not burning at this time. So in this instance context is pretty important to the meaning of the word. The fire talked about here in Jude that consumed Sodom and Gomorrha could be analogous to the fire that will burn the damned at the end of time. It will burn them us and then go out.

Richard Eternal Fire means Eternal separation from God. How does that fire go out? Are you saying scritpure lies and Hell is not eternal separation from GOd only temporary?

If this were true why did the Apostles and Christ teach quite differently? Then what do we do throw out the whole N.T and O.T or what? Why even read the scripture at all then??

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

These are really good questions. But I must ask for clarification. You say “Since God exists completely outside of time” Are you saying that God does not exist in time. As for eternity. The bible uses the word as both “without end” and “for a specific time period” For instance Jn3
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

[SIGN]The eternal life talked about here is the eternal life in Christ and will be without end[/SIGN][SIGN][/SIGN].

In Jude we find something else Jude
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Quite obviously the fire discribed here as “eternal fire” is not fire without end because Sodom and Gomorrha are thought to be at the bottom of the dead sea and are not burning at this time. So in this instance context is pretty important to the meaning of the word. The fire talked about here in Jude that consumed Sodom and Gomorrha could be analogous to the fire that will burn the damned at the end of time. It will burn them us and then go out.

Then what about eternal death? You not only have contradicted scripture, not you are doing it to yourself.

You can’t have it both ways Richard, Is eternal forever or not??

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Eternal Fire means Eternal separation from God. How does that fire go out? Are you saying scritpure lies and Hell is not eternal separation from GOd only temporary?

No I’m not saying scripture lies. I’m saying that you MISUNDERSTAND not only what scripture says but what I am saying.

If this were true why did the Apostles and Christ teach quite differently? Then what do we do throw out the whole N.T and O.T or what? Why even read the scripture at all then??

Where did they teach anything different?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
These are really good questions. But I must ask for clarification. You say “Since God exists completely outside of time” Are you saying that God does not exist in time. As for eternity. The bible uses the word as both “without end” and “for a specific time period” For instance Jn3
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The eternal life talked about here is the eternal life in Christ and will be without end

.

In Jude we find something else Jude
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Quite obviously the fire discribed here as “eternal fire” is not fire without end because Sodom and Gomorrha are thought to be at the bottom of the dead sea and are not burning at this time. So in this instance context is pretty important to the meaning of the word. The fire talked about here in Jude that consumed Sodom and Gomorrha could be analogous to the fire that will burn the damned at the end of time. It will burn them us and then go out.

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Then what about eternal death? You not only have contradicted scripture, not you are doing it to yourself.

You can’t have it both ways Richard, Is eternal forever or not??

rinnie did you read the scriptures I posted here? They clearly show two different meanings for the word eternal. I think we do agree on the way eternal is used in the first one. That eternal life means life without end. It’s the second one that I think you are struggling with. Let’s look at another v. in Ex.21:6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

This is talking about the plight of the slave who decides to stay with his master.It says "and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him **for ever. **Does this mean that the servant will serve his master down through the ceasless eons of time and beyond? No, of coarse not. It means that he shall serve his master until he dies. This is the same with the fires of hell they will burn until the fuel for the fire (souls of the damned) are burned up. Then it will go out.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Now here you Go Richard.

Scripture for ETERNAL HELL.

Let’s get these on the table

Matt 3:12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The everlasting fire here refered to is a fire that lasts until it’s job is done. Then it goes out.

25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The everlasting punishment here talked about is death, forever.

Mark 9:47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

2 Thess 1: 6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This v. doesn’t talk of eternal fire but of fire (judgement) of vengence of God. God is not in the buisinessof tourcher. Why would He keep souls around to torcher them through the ceasless ages of eternity? Doesn’t sound like a God of love to me.

Jude 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Since the fires of Sodom and Gomorrha are not burning now this should be a no-brainer.

Luke 3:17Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Need More!! I can get it for you.

It all talks about a UNQUENCHABLE FIRE. Fire means an Eternal State of separation from God.

No actually Matt3:12, Mark9:47, and Luke3:17 are the only ones that you cite that talk about unquenchable fire and atho Catholics may think that fire represents a state of seperation from God. The bible uses fire to denote God’s judgement. Unquenchable fire far from meaning eternal simply means that the fire cannot be extinguished by external means. IOW God’s judgement is forever. Now we need to get this clear. The punishment is forever. Rom.6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. That punishment is death. The wicked are burned up forever.