Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[Nicene]

I And the Heavenly Liturgy of Jesus on Mt Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem

Heb 12:21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.
25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
26 His voice then shook the earth; but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven.”
27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of what is shaken, as of what has been made, in order that what cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe;
29 for our God is a consuming fire.

I know you don’t believe in the communion of Saints at that that is only earthly, however you notice in V23 the first born NT saints and the just made perfect, those are the heavenly saints. You’ll also notice that the kingdom of David has already begun v26. And that worship is with reverence and awe, not a bible study at a fellowship meeting with people saying amen to everything a preacher says. You’ll also see the heavenly Liturgy in Rev 4-8

Heb 13:13 Therefore let us go forth to him outside the camp and bear the abuse he endured.
14 For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city which is to come.
15 Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.
16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

As far as demeanor i again refer to reverence and Awe. Again, Jesus did not come to make Jews into Gentiles with their practices, but Gentiles into the Jewish family. Nor did Jesus bring us into practices of a new age movement.

While I’m certain that you don’t offer the cup of blessing that is, the cup of peace, as a sacrifice to your God, in the OT and the NT we still do, and as St. Paul states in 1 Corinthians, we “participate” in it. Anamnesis/nmemosinon, or in Hebrew Zikaron/Askerah often translated as remember means to recall or make the past present now and why we participate.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

Actually you take St. James out of context of the passage:

Jam 5:13 Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise.
14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
17 Eli’jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth.
18 Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.

Notice his conclusion to calling the “Elders” of the church, is v16 “Therefore” indicating the elder, not each person as you state. And when Jesus gives this to the apostles in Jn 20:21-23 it is, just as at the last supper, when he inaugurates the priesthood, accusatory 2nd person Plural, indicating them. Had it meant everyone in general as your sect teaches it would have been accusatory 3rd person plural.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

You are speaking of two different topics here, the one you are citing isn’t the fullness of the gentiles of the church but the destruction of Jerusalem by the gentiles:

Lk 21:21]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it;
22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all that is written.
23 Alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! For great distress shall be upon the earth and wrath upon this people;
24 they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive among all nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

And the Temple was in fact destroyed in 70AD. Again seriously cherry picking a verse out of context.

I do find it odd, that you offer no scripture to back up any of your claims throughout the thread but keep stating “I believe” or “I think”…what happened to bible alone?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

You certainly have, St. Paul states in 1 Corinthians:

14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
18 But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
19 If all were a single organ, where would the body be?
20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
22 On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable,
23 and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part,
25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

Earlier you stated:

Not too mention turning the mass into a sacrifice on top of of a remembrance and thanksgiving…and a separate priesthood , just as in Jesus time, instead finally righteousness fulfilled and a body , a nation (church) of priests , as promised to Israelite s before their sin in the desert (the CC priesthood tiers is OT, and a secondary setup By God, not His first preference, just like having a king was “secondary” preference to God for Israel)…

This belief does in fact reject what we find in Corinthians above, And again is a perfect example of the Korah rebellion of which Peter Paul and Jude speak of. Your statement emphasizes you don’t need an ear, you don’t need the eye or the hand …

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

Ephesians tells us differently:

21 Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church,
30 because we are members of his body.
31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

Christ and his body are one which is as he says a mystery of the faith. You’ll also notice when Paul has his apocalypse:

Acts;9:4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

Not Why do you persecute my followers, my brothers, my family, my church etc, but “why do you persecute me”

You seem to want to seperate what God has joined together.

Or in Matt 25:31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
40 And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

“You did it to me.”

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

FWIW I apologize for the brevity of the posts as I try to limit commentary due to only Bering allowed 3500 spaces for posts doesn’t allow for much space when posting scripture. Sorry if it appears being short with anyone.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[mcq72]

You are be quite wrong about Sacrifices:

No , the verses u have substantiate what I posted:"save (except) the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving…hence eucharist)

A few have stated here that they offer up more to God at communion, and pray it is acceptable (ie their own sufferings and other things of self…would have to reread posts for more)

 

[mcq72]

the proper understanding of it is “it is consummated” which is covenant language which means brought to perfection.

Correct…u cant add to perfection (though some try , with their own offering , aprat from thanks)…we remember (bring to present) and give an amen (to new covenant) and thanksgiving to that perfect, finished work.

 

[mcq72]

You seem to want to seperate what God has joined together.

No, I only offered that the focus of preaching (to unsaved) is Christ crucified and risen…the rest is teaching (to the earthly saints)

 

[mcq72]

Not Why do you persecute my followers, my brothers, my family, my church etc, but “why do you persecute me”

Exactly…as I posted, Christ is the focal pount of everything…not sure why you think that I diminish our oness with Christ with that…

 

[guanophore]

Exactly…as I posted, Christ is the focal pount of everything…not sure why you think that I diminish our oness with Christ with that…

I think it is just because we have a different definition of “church”.

 

[mcq72]

And again is a perfect example of the Korah rebellion of which Peter Paul and Jude speak

Hard to believe that Jesus fulfilling all, setting up new covenant, new kingdom would need a sacrificial ministerial priesthood, as in heirus priesthood, (even though we call it after Malchizadek…a heirus priest is as he does)

I think it is just because we have a different definition of “church”.

yes…think that one view is that everything (all believers) is under "Catholic’’ umbrella, the other is everything under “being called out”

One view is the Church is Catholic , and O’s and P’s and others stem from her.

The other is church(english)=eclessia(greek)= “called out ones”, be they Catholic, O or P etc…

I think the differing view was anathemized at Trent

 

[guanophore]

Hard to believe that Jesus fulfilling all, setting up new covenant, new kingdom would need a sacrificial ministerial priesthood, as in heirus priesthood, (even though we call it after Malchizadek…a heirus priest is as he does)

You are creating a strawman, mcq72. The Church founded by Christ does not have a heirus priesthood. Jesus fulfilled this by being both our High Priest and the perfect sacrificial lamb.
He is a priest after the order of Melchizedech, as are all those who are caught up in His priesthood.

(even though we call it after Malchizadek…a heirus priest is as he does)

I don’t know what you mean by this, but Jesus was sacrificed once for all time. His sacrifice was perfect and complete. There is nothing left for a heirus priest to do.

 

[guanophore]

one view is that everything (all believers) is under "Catholic’’ umbrella, the other is everything under “being called out”

For us there is no difference. We are in the World, but not of it. We are to be light and salt to the world, but we are pilgrims here. Jesus only founded One Church, therefore, all who are in Christ are members of His One Body. This Body was described by the early Church as Catholic.

I think the differing view was anathemized at Trent

Certainly a definition of “Church” contrary to what the Apostles taught would be anathema, whenever it happened.

 

[Wannano]

one view is that everything (all believers) is under "Catholic’’ umbrella, the other is everything under “being called out”

For us there is no difference. We are in the World, but not of it. We are to be light and salt to the world, but we are pilgrims here. Jesus only founded One Church, therefore, all who are in Christ are members of His One Body. This Body was described by the early Church as Catholic. After many centuries of development, the Church struggled with corruption as it became friends with the world and adopted many ethnocentric attitudes within its hierarchy to control the masses of the people creating a huge disconnect between the clergy and the laity. Power and wealth and self preservation determined the development of many of the practices of doctrine given by Christ and the Apostles which resulted in producing new thought and practices totally foreign to the early Church. The Church once persecuted became the persecutor. As the world in general became more educated and technology provided the means for man to read, see and understand for himself, the evidence that the Church was losing sight of its mission to be salt and light and not of this world became evident. Christ promised that the Church would endure to the end of time. All who are in Christ are members of His Body, the Church. A purifying cleansing action was needed to bring reformation to the Church enabling the continuance of “the Way” to the end of time. This has been a time of stress and rife with human misunderstandings and after centuries of turmoil is not over with yet. Now the Church is called by many names, Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist etc etc. All that are truly in Christ are members of His Body, the Church, and that remnant will be there at the end of time.

 

[mcq72]

Yep. Amen

Reminds me of the old story:

Pilgrim was approaching the Pearly Gates. He sees St. Peter afar off and asks if there any Baptists up there. St. Peter says no. Any Lutherans ? No says St. Peter again. Any Orthodox ? No. Any Catholics ? No . "Then who is up there ?’ asks a bewildered pilgrim. “Just those souls who have been washed in the Blood of the Lamb”, replies Peter.

 

[jcrichton]

Actually the most non-Catholics recognize trinitarian baptism, even of infants as valid.

For those that do no recognize infant baptism, it is not because they don’t believe Catholics are Christian, but because they espouse “believers baptism”, which means a person must be able to make a profession of faith before baptism. They also don’t believe baptism is regenerative, but that it is confessing with the mouth and believing with the heart that makes a person a Christian. So they believe there are Christians in the Catholic Church.

They believe everyone who belongs to Christ is in His one Body, but that Catholicism is just another denomination.

I must be finding these others by some traumatized cosmic serendipity.

There is only a small number of fundamentalists that believe Catholicism is a cult (non-Christian).

They believe Catholics can be saved in spite of the CC.

These must be subdividing and spreading around the NY metropolitan area as I meet them of and on on various circuits–always seeking to save me from my error (Catholicism).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Absolutely, amongst many other callings…to His Son, to His family, to be adopted, to be holy, perfect, to be witnesses, etc

Yet, all Calling must be the same Calling–God cannot Call me to be a member of His Family so that I recreate His Church or to be a member of His Body so that I can splinter it or to be His Witness to a different and splintered Family/Body.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[guanophore]

I must be finding these others by some traumatized cosmic serendipity.

[\quote]

Can get a membership?

These must be subdividing and spreading around the NY metropolitan area as I meet them of and on on various circuits–always seeking to save me from my error (Catholicism).

At least they are concerned about your eternal wellbeing!

 

[YoungCatholicGuy]

Catechism states:
The Holy Spirit will never call someone to leave the True Faith.

And:

To deliberately leave the Catholic Church freely, with full knowledge, in full freedom, if you are 100% aware it is the True Faith, Is a mortal sin.

And what does Pope John Paul say about the Catechism? ‘I put my Apostolic Authority on this work.’

End of discussion.