Does God exist?

[agangbern]

That’s kind of like two algae cells saying to each other, “I’ve heard that humans exist - can you prove it to me?”

Since algae cells don’t have eyes or ears or even a brain to comprehend our presence, there’s no way for them to comprehend our presence even if we had a blob of them in our hands.

We are on that level with God, maybe even lower. We can’t comprehend Him no matter how hard we try because it’s impossible. But faith gives us an advantage that those without it don’t have. When you’re heart’s at the right place, you’ll know.

Before that time, don’t expect anyone to prove it in empirical values.

Snert

Yes! The situation is more like it.

God provided the way so that man may be in the same frequency with God’s spirit and so be able to see the evidence of His existence. But man simply hardens his heart and not allow the Spirit to unite with his spirit. There are others who softened and opened their hearts to God’s spirit and they found the evidence themselves.

 

[doughnut]

Yes he does. And by praying for His Guidance, we received them. Now logically, who was the one who was with me when I’m down, encouraged me when I despair, and lead me to become a better person each day.

Any rational being who has experienced Him would certainly believe he existed.

 

[bnapgh]

No one can ‘‘scientifically’’ prove that God exists BECAUSE God does NOT want them to be able to do so. If there were irrefutable scientific evidence of the God of Abraham then people would obey Him for selfish reasons, as an insurance policy against hell and damnation (see Pascal’s wager).

God is Love. The only command is to love God with everything and one’s neighbor as one’s self. Period.

What is the opposite of Love ? Not hate, but selfishness.

If man acts in accord with God’s commands out of selfishness, then it would be antithetical (although often a necessary intermediary step).

As an agnostic I can honestly say that I do not know. I can also say that if a god does exist, I doubt very seriously that it is the god of abraham.

Please explain the rationale for such specific doubt.

 

[AndyF]

PJM;4770976:

In existance there are the material and spiritual. We are now in that material world and limited by it’s confines. In a way our conceptions aren’t limited as we can conceive of a spiritual world. But we can only use our experience to a certain point within that confine. We are limited to the sensual, but also gifted with intuition and a conscience. To progress further we need assistance to explore the mystical world.

The mystical world brings with it a sister to the experiential world we live in. Since it is mystical and we are limited to the material while here, we would find some mystical things incomprehensible. They can be only understood when we are a part of that world.

This is why we have revelations,the word of God, and the Church. They are to sustain us while here in exile.

This is where Faith comes in. We have faith in historical writings. Even though we know the constitution was written hundreds of years ago, we don’t dispute the fact it exists and it was written, and we abide by it. Historical facts aren’t a deterrent to our accepting them. So it is with the Bible. How much more should we abide by it’s precepts, than we would a constitution.

Andy

 

[Dameedna]

I believe in God’s existance because there had to be a first cause to creation, as is argued by St. Thomas Aquinas. .

Aquinas’s arguments are old and were not based on modern science.

Did you know that matter can be created spontaneously and that this has been observed in a laboratory? IE…there was no first cause of it?

There is no, and never will be any proof of god. If people trust their religious experiences, then so be it. But proof requires empiricle evidence.

It astounds me, how many people fight for their belief in God, and seem to only belief in him because of what another humans told them or gave them an argument?

It’s like you are believing in what people tell you, and not something that is actually real.

 

[Dameedna]

But we are the only Church that has not broken with Christ and the teachings of His early Church, which he said would speak for Him. “He who hears you, hears me.”

Say’s who? Your church?

It truth was not important, anyone…could believe anything they were told…oh wait…hmmm

 

[PJM]

Yes it can be proven. But it can also be disproven.

I let my reason be illuminated by the faith in God that was given to me at my baptism, even if God’s existance can be disproven. Otherwise I guess I’d be just be “a hopeful agnostic”, to use Malcolm’s word’s from “Malcolm in the Middle”.

Hi READY, welcome to The Forum!

I’m the OP of this post, so allow me to ask my orginal question in a slightly different manner.

If an unbeliever asked you: Can you prove the existance of god, or can anyone disprove the existance of god? How can one prove, or disprove the existance of god? And just what is god anyway?

Certainly we can deny that god exist or claim that god indeed does exist. BUT, can it be proven?

 

[bnapgh]

Did you know that matter can be created spontaneously and that this has been observed in a laboratory? IE…there was no first cause of it?

I expect that the spontaneous ‘‘creation’’ experiments of which you speak is conversion of energy, is it not? If not, please explain. In any event, since energy or some other ‘‘thing’’ was used in that lab, then that lab was not the ‘‘first’’ cause of the energy. Aquinas’ ‘‘proof’’ is not ‘‘scientific’’ but it is ‘‘logical’’, and its logic is valid if not empirical.

It’s like you are believing in what people tell you, and not something that is actually real.

Now it seems you are making an invalid extension. Just because an ‘‘experience’’ is not replicatable and therefore not scientifically empirical, that does not make the experience ‘‘not…real’’.

Were you in that lab or did others tell you about that experiment?

We all listen to what others ‘‘tell’’ us. We weigh testimony against our own ‘‘real’’ experiences. We choose our own paths. This is as ‘‘real’’ as anything others do in a lab.

Please explain, what came before the ‘‘Big Bang’’ and why did it occur?

 

[Dameedna]

Certainly we can deny that god exist or claim that god indeed does exist. BUT, can it be proven?

No athiest has ever “denied” God exists. That is to presume something DOES exist, and an indiviual denies it.

Nope, that’s not the way proof and truth work, sorry.

If you want to create a hypothesis, then it is up to you to prove it.

IE, if you claim God exists, the hypothesis is of your making. It belongs to you. It is up to you to prove it.

If this were not the case, IE, if you do not have to prove your claims, then anyone could make a statment that Koala toe-nails cured cancer and there would a mass extinction of an already endangered species.

If you make a claim, you prove it. This is why science is so powerful and in many ways, it is also the basis of our justice system. Innocent…until PROVEN guilty. Many cultures presume guilt, on what another has claimed. As an example that has occured in New guinea, a woman was charged with sorcery. She was charged with causing another woman to lose her baby. Because she could “obviously” never prove she didnt’ use sorcery, the woman was killed…chopped into pieces while alive and then burned.

You cannot live in a civilized world anymore, by simply making a claim that something is real or true.

Proof and science is very efficient. It doesn’t waste time on ideas that have no possibility of verification. It is simply interested in truth and one might be a little more grateful toward its endeavours.

You are not guilty, till proven so. A cure for cancer is not utilized or approved of by your authorities no mater HOW much someone says “BUT IT WORKS”. It must be proven to work. And a society will not kill a woman accused of sorcery nor will we support a prophet that claims that God wants them to marry 12 yr old children to 50 yr old men with 8 wives(the FDLS). For it to be supported it MUST be verified first.

This submission to truth, is what will give us our lives back as humans.

Be thankful, for the great doubters of your society. They are the reason, you will not be killed for sorcery, chew on Koala toe-nails, or be forced to rape a 12 yeard old For the sake of a heavenly promise… without proof.

 

[Dameedna]

I expect that the spontaneous ‘‘creation’’ experiments of which you speak is conversion of energy, is it not? If not, please explain.

If I could explain it, I would win a nobel prize. No-one can explain it, but they can verify that it happens.

Now it seems you are making an invalid extension. Just because an ‘‘experience’’ is not replicatable and therefore not scientifically empirical, that does not make the experience ‘‘not…real’’.

My friend I have no doubt that the experiences of the religious individual are real. I do not think that EVERY… SINGLE … HUMAN …BEING that claims such an experience is lying.

The problem is the cause of the experience is not proven. Because the individual is already predisposed to belief, and/or they simply are ignorant the REASON for it happening can be very different than their understanding.

An individual with schizophrenia often has delusions they are talking directly with God. A person who takes drugs, can often believe they are flying. And a person who manic depressive, is completely sure of themselves that they can fly a rocket into outerspace.

What this shows us about the human brain is that it is capable of experiences, that do not reflect reality.

IE, religious experiences. They feel real, but they are not based on a real occurence.

We all listen to what others ‘‘tell’’ us. We weigh testimony against our own ‘‘real’’ experiences. We choose our own paths. This is as ‘‘real’’ as anything others do in a lab.

It is real for you and honestly I’m happy for you. I’m not trying to take it away from you.

It is only when you claim these experiences as real, and then claim your faith as the truth faith…AND THEN try and determine what rules other humans should live by…that we must call your experiences into question.

If your experiences and your subsequent conclusions had no effect on me, and just gave you a belief you would live forever, then I would do what I could to support you. It’s a wonderful thing to believe and must bring great peace and happiness to you. I do not wish to take that away from you. I wish I felt the same. But as soon as you begin to hurt people, because of your experience, and your self-proclaimed religious truth and rules…then …we must verify it.

As soon as you claim god wants this/that or the other…God…must be verfied. Not every society respects this need for verification and this is why they still kill people due to claims of magic, claims of curses and claims of demonic possesion.

Society cannot be managed, in accordance with belief.

Please explain, what came before the ‘‘Big Bang’’ and why did it occur?

It’s a meaningless question. Time only began WITH the big bang. There was no before

Don’t worry if it doesn’t make sense. Most theoretical physicists can’t figure it out either. We have a lot to learn

 

[Sideline]

Any rational being who has experienced Him would certainly believe he existed.

This is a really interesting post.

I was once a Catholic and prayed fervently. I spent at least 3 hours a day in prayer for several years. I think if I ever experienced anything at all god-like in that time I would still be a believer. I would gladly have accepted my own experience over any argument.

As it is I have no experience to go on, only my sense of reason. Try as I might justify my faith through reason and evidence, I was completely unable to do so. Slowly but surely, I became an atheist. You have no idea how galling it is to read that people think I was just hard hearted, or simple-minded, or stupid for losing my faith in God. (I’m not pointing fingers at anyone on this thread by the way.)

Perhaps the reason I couldn’t find the evidence or the proof was that I had a hardened heart, but I find that hard to believe as I was actually looking to deepen my faith in God. I wasn’t able to experience him emotionally, so maybe I could experience him intellectually. How is that hardening one’s heart.

Perhaps it was that I was just illogical, stupid, uneducated or otherwise deficient in reason compared to the luminaries of this board. But if that were the case, why do so many of them use arguments that are so obviously fallacies. To use a metaphor, it is hard to listen to a person who seems to be struggling with basic arithmetic lecture you on the transcendent nature of mathematics.

I think you are right, essentially, if I had experienced God, I would have believed in him. But, I haven’t experienced God, and I find it as hard to accept someone else’s experience of God as I do accepting someone else’s experience of Vishnu.

 

[Sideline]

There is no, and never will be any proof of god.

How can you say that there will never be any proof for God? Personally, I think I have to leave the door open to the possibility.

 

[cerad]

How can you say that there will never be any proof for God? Personally, I think I have to leave the door open to the possibility.

The problem is that if definite proof of god’s existence was ever discovered then free will goes in the toilet and we all become robots. Very sad.

 

[ready]

I believe there is enough proof that God exists. A first cause is necessary for all existence to come to be. Scientifically and mathematically, nothing can come from nothing.

 

[Sideline]

The problem is that if definite proof of god’s existence was ever discovered then free will goes in the toilet and we all become robots. Very sad.

I’ve never understood this line of reasoning.

Actually, that’s completely unfair, I do understand this line of reasoning and I think it is wrong. Here’s an example.

I injured myself a couple of years ago, and as a result, my lifestyle went from active to sedentary. I also gained sixty pounds. I hate it. If my shoelace become untied I find it hard to bend over and tie them up. I usually sit down or find someplace to put my foot up.

I know the only way to loose the weight. Stop eating junk food and start exercising. It’s no great mystery to me. I know how I put the weight on, I know how to take it off. And yet here I am, sitting in front of the computer eating simple carbohydrates while drinking a Dr. Pepper. I know I am consuming more calories than I need. I know that I am eating foods that increase my insulin level which increases fat stores. I know that I am increasing my risk of heart attack, diabetes, and liver problems. My certain knowledge does not equate to certain actions on my part.

If you are a Catholic it stands to reason that you think at least some of the Bible is true. The Bible is filled with stories, that if you believe them, prove that God exists.

Adam and Eve spoke with God in the Garden of Eden, and yet still managed to sin… an exercise of free will presumably.

Cain spoke with God and killed his brother… another exercise of free will, presumably.

Abraham spoke with God, and asked God to be merciful to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah… another act of free will, presumably.

God told Jonah to preach to the people of Ninevah, and he fled away… again, an act of free will.

Jacob wrestled with an angel, or God, depending how you read it… he was probably not a wrestling robot.

The Apostles came face-to-face with a risen Jesus… were they robots forever after?

Certain knowledge is not the same as certain obedience.

 

[pismopal]

dictionary.reference.com/browse/evidence

You will not be able to provide any evidence thats viable for the eixtence of god, however neither will i be able to provide any that he does not exist. We could argue on the grounds of logic, which people are able to make assumptions on however this is not evidence nor proof.

During our life time the arugment for the existence or non existence of god will go round and round in circles. However one things for sure we will all find out one day

You are wrong…thankfully. There are many in prison convicted on the testimony of eye witnesses and there were eye witnesses to God on earth…uh that would be Jesus…His miracles…his death (as predicted in the Bible) and His rising were all witnessed and the testimony recorded in the Gospels. Some of the best witnesses died as martyrs and never recanted their stories. The " dying declaration" is one of the strongest evidences in California criminal law and that is what you have there. Not just a few principals were witnesses but hundreds.
Now, someone can say that people will live for a lie…sometimes they have something to gain but dying for a lie is another matter. These things are evidence of God’s existence and this is what I said the first time. People don’t always believe evidence no matter how convincing…heard of OJ Simpson?

 

[ready]

People have been sentenced to death by electric chair and injection because the jury in a court room unanimously agreed the evidence was sufficient proof of the defendant’s guilt. But only God knew (and perhaps others) of the defendant’s innocence.

I believe God exists, personally. But proving His existance is tough because there is the opposing argument that others can still be swayed to accept.

 

[agangbern]

If I could explain it, I would win a nobel prize. No-one can explain it, but they can verify that it happens.

My friend I have no doubt that the experiences of the religious individual are real. I do not think that EVERY… SINGLE … HUMAN …BEING that claims such an experience is lying.

The problem is the cause of the experience is not proven. Because the individual is already predisposed to belief, and/or they simply are ignorant the REASON for it happening can be very different than their understanding.

An individual with schizophrenia often has delusions they are talking directly with God. A person who takes drugs, can often believe they are flying. And a person who manic depressive, is completely sure of themselves that they can fly a rocket into outerspace.

What this shows us about the human brain is that it is capable of experiences, that do not reflect reality.

IE, religious experiences. They feel real, but they are not based on a real occurence.

It is real for you and honestly I’m happy for you. I’m not trying to take it away from you.

Yes! No matter for example how I may tell you that my shoes is causing great pain on my feet, the experience is only mine. It cannot be proven and I cannot prove it to you unless we have exactly the same size of feet. You may only say that I am pretending or that my experience is not based on real occurrence.

If your experiences and your subsequent conclusions had no effect on me, and just gave you a belief you would live forever, then I would do what I could to support you. It’s a wonderful thing to believe and must bring great peace and happiness to you. I do not wish to take that away from you. I wish I felt the same. But as soon as you begin to hurt people, because of your experience, and your self-proclaimed religious truth and rules…then …we must verify it.

Yes! Anything that hurts people should not only be verified, but should quickly be stopped. But it is beyond us if Jesus should accept to be crowned with thorns and hanged on the cross because of the truth of God’s existence.

 

[codebilly]

People have been sentenced to death by electric chair and injection because the jury in a court room unanimously agreed the evidence was sufficient proof of the defendant’s guilt. But only God knew (and perhaps others) of the defendant’s innocence.

I believe God exists, personally. But proving His existance is tough because there is the opposing argument that others can still be swayed to accept.

Yes His existence can be proven to oneself, but not to others unless He wills it.

How to prove something exists? You must conduct an experiment. Correct?

By what experiment can God be proven? St. John of the Cross, in Ascent of Mt. Carmel, tells us, (and I;m paraphrasing) … since God is beyond our sensory world, we must search Him not by our senses"

What do you have beside your senses? There are not really 5 senses … the 6th is your mind. Without your mind, engaging your senses, your senses are non operative.

If you want proof of God, simply renounce material pleasure, immerse yourself in prayer, as much as possible, repent of your sins, and follow Jesus into the desert.

Then, if you are sincere, you for sure will get proof. And your proof will be a great, great big surprise.

 

[agangbern]

Yes His existence can be proven to oneself, but not to others unless He wills it.

How to prove something exists? You must conduct an experiment. Correct?

By what experiment can God be proven? St. John of the Cross, in Ascent of Mt. Carmel, tells us, (and I;m paraphrasing) … since God is beyond our sensory world, we must search Him not by our senses"

What do you have beside your senses? There are not really 5 senses … the 6th is your mind. Without your mind, engaging your senses, your senses are non operative.

If you want proof of God, simply renounce material pleasure, immerse yourself in prayer, as much as possible, repent of your sins, and follow Jesus into the desert.

Then, if you are sincere, you for sure will get proof. And your proof will be a great, great big surprise.

Yeah! I like that…the world is one’s laboratory, and oneself is the specimen. The instrument is unceasing prayer and sacrifice. Let us try this and see the proof.