S
Sideline
Guest
This is really quite rich. Your only reason for believing is your subjective experience, and yet you criticize my experience on the sole basis that it is subjective.
- Status
R
ready
Guest
My mother was a good woman (she’s deceased now). You might ask me to prove it. I can give personal testimony of this, so could many others…but you still could choose not to believe me and accept my assertion because you refuse to put faith in my words (and in the words of others who knew her) – as you do not know us personally and did not know my mother.
You have got to start your search for truth with both faith and reason together, though. Even if the idea of God’s existence doesn’t seem sound, put faith in at least the possibility of God creating you and dying for you and see where it goes. Keep seeking God even if He appears non-existant and nonsensical to your reason…keep seeking until the day you die to prove your faculties wrong by your faithful death…You will have past a great test in the eyes of God and in the the end will reap a great reward for all eternity.
If you give up searching for Him you may never arrive at Truth (knowledge of Him)…We must seek Him always…even against unrelenting doubt, and prove our selves wrong in disbelieving his existence. It is our obligation.
You have got to start your search for truth with both faith and reason together, though. Even if the idea of God’s existence doesn’t seem sound, put faith in at least the possibility of God creating you and dying for you and see where it goes. Keep seeking God even if He appears non-existant and nonsensical to your reason…keep seeking until the day you die to prove your faculties wrong by your faithful death…You will have past a great test in the eyes of God and in the the end will reap a great reward for all eternity.
If you give up searching for Him you may never arrive at Truth (knowledge of Him)…We must seek Him always…even against unrelenting doubt, and prove our selves wrong in disbelieving his existence. It is our obligation.
S
Snerticus
Guest
A
agangbern
Guest
Actually, it was not a criticism of you subjective experience. As you can notice, it was an acknowledgment of your subjective experience, thus bringing to the front the fact that each one of us have personal experiences that maybe only the individual concerned could understand by himself for the time being.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Hi READY, welcome to The Forum!
I’m the OP of this post, so allow me to ask my orginal question in a slightly different manner.
If an unbeliever asked you: Can you prove the existance of god, or can anyone disprove the existance of god? How can one prove, or disprove the existance of god? And just what is god anyway?
Certainly we can deny that god exist or claim that god indeed does exist. BUT, can it be proven?
There are three more issues:
- proving that a Divine Entity exists, is a long way from proving that this Entity is the God of Abraham
- Even if that is proved, that is no proof of Christianity
- Even if that DE exists, that is no proof that it makes an practical difference - it might be one of the gods of Epicurus, living without a care for the world.
And - a proof can be logically sound, yet not true to the facts, as with proofs of the impossibility of motion - so, how would we know that God existed, when logical soundness is no guarantee of a corresponding reality ? “By God’s action”, is no answer, because what we apprehend as that, might not be that. How would we know ? How do we get beyond our own brains & bodies, to that (suppposed) Entity ?
M
MegaTherion
Guest
No. Science doesn’t work by faith. We don’t accept things because science “declares” them to be so. We accept facts, laws, and theories because there is evidence that supports them.
Evidence – independently verifiable data that compels the acceptance of a proposition (regardless of what you “believe”).
Your post demonstrates a complete ignorance about the way that human beings go about learning things about the world around us.
No. I can see with my eyes. It looks like the sun rises and falls in the sky.
My experience tells me that the sun circles the earth. It’s not accurate.
No. I have good reason for thinking it horrible – namely, the analogy misrepresents the way that science works. I have good reason to make my claim. It’s not subjective – you’re simply wrong.
Why would I pray to something I don’t believe in? There’s no evidence that it exists. I might as well pray to the Hindu gods. Or leprechauns. There’s just as much evidence that those beings exist.
You misunderstand how knowledge works. You are the ones making a positive claim (that there is evidence that the Jesus Christ of legend existed as recorded in the gospels) – that claim comes with a burden of proof.
All I am saying is that there is no evidence to support that claim.
The gospels are anonymous works of the first century (and possibly early second century) CE. Their stories, written by the followers of the Christian cult, are the only source of information about the man you claim existed.
I think it’s likely that a person existed upon whom the Jesus legends were based. But I have never seen any good reason to accept the legends as true. (Unless you think we should accept all holy books as true)
Well, no. “Good” is a value judgment. That your mother was “good” by the standards of most modern values isn’t really an extraordinary claim. I would have no problem accepting an ordinary, mundane claim like that.
Now, if you claim that your mother had superpowers, I wouldn’t take your word for it. And I certainly wouldn’t accept a handful of second-hand stories as “evidence” for that claim. I would want to see some really, really convincing evidence before I believed something like that.
You are, therefore Shiva is. Do you accept that argument?
No. The alternative is to say honestly that we don’t know everything about the universe (and perhaps we never will) but that we’re going to be brave and actually investigate where the evidence leads – rather than simply believing whatever is easy or comfortable.
It is easier. Is it correct, though? How can you be sure?
A
agangbern
Guest
So, “it looks like the sun rises and falls in the sky.” But not looks like going around the earth! That’s okay. At least now you know that it is the earth that goes around the sun, and not the sun circling the earth.
Yes, you may have million reasons to say that it was horrible! But do not expect that everyone would adopt your million reasons.
What are those evidences?
Scientists most often begin with the formulation of a hypothesis. Then they proceed to work out their hypothesis to see if it is correct. Certainly, before they have virified the correctness of their hypothesis, they would not declare it as true as yet.
Now, a scientist should try the ultimate experiment. The hypothesis is : God exists.
The specimen to prove this is one’s life itself. The laboratory is the world. The instruments are unceasing prayers, sacrifice and love. Do not declare yet as true that there is God. Just try the experiment then declare later what you discovered.
R
ready
Guest
My major was psycholgy, and I was interested in human learning and intelligence. I took a graduate course at Harvard University on “A Cognitive Approach to Creativity” and learned about human cognition and intelligence as it relates to creativity. And I have read much, much on my Catholic faith. I try to be fair in all my judgements as they relate to the human mind and faith.
I think all my arguments are fair, despite what some might like to argue. I am a Christain. Some of you are not. There is no point arguing when garbage is thrown around like its going out of style.
I said earlier, God’s existence can be proven. And God’s existence can be disproven. I literally choseto keep faith in God, the God I know as the God of Abraham, because He is the Father of Jesus who I choose to have faith in. I just cooperate with all the grace God gives me without losing any bit of it, as I best know how.
I think all my arguments are fair, despite what some might like to argue. I am a Christain. Some of you are not. There is no point arguing when garbage is thrown around like its going out of style.
I said earlier, God’s existence can be proven. And God’s existence can be disproven. I literally choseto keep faith in God, the God I know as the God of Abraham, because He is the Father of Jesus who I choose to have faith in. I just cooperate with all the grace God gives me without losing any bit of it, as I best know how.
A
agangbern
Guest
There was a young elephant tied to a tree and fed there regularly. As he pulls the rope to free himself it did not snap. As years passed, the elephant stopped any effort to pull the rope to free himself.
The elephant grew big as years passed, so that if he should only pull the rope to free himself surely the rope would already snap.
If only that elephant persisted in his efforts; if only he “experimented” enough, then he would have discovered that the rope was already easy to free himself out.
The elephant grew big as years passed, so that if he should only pull the rope to free himself surely the rope would already snap.
If only that elephant persisted in his efforts; if only he “experimented” enough, then he would have discovered that the rope was already easy to free himself out.
R
ready
Guest
Yes, perseverence!
S
Sideline
Guest
You do realize that there is a rather significant difference between what you are posting here, and your other posts.
In this example, there is a clear, common, external definition of success. In your other posts, you suggest that it is an internal state that constitutes proof.
We don’t know the elephant’s internal state. Perhaps the proverbial pachyderm has given up trying because he “feels” free? He wouldn’t break away from the rope because it makes him feel secure. We just don’t know.
Either God is something “out there” or it is something in our heads. If it is an external reality, then it is reasonable to assume that there is should be some external evidence. If it is an internal reality, then how can we know what causes it.
A
agangbern
Guest
The internal state constituting proof when perfected is always confirmed by external realities.
S
Sideline
Guest
A
agangbern
Guest
Repeat: When perfected!
S
Sideline
Guest
Ah… darn.
That puts us right back at square one. Oh well… nice debating with you.:tiphat:
A
agangbern
Guest
I never said that I am already perfect in my relation with God.
There is one who has perfected such relationship: Jesus Christ.
Look at the external realities that confirmed His perfection: He fed the 5,000 with few loaves; He walked on the water; finally He rose from the dead.
S
Sideline
Guest
A
agangbern
Guest
Were Vishu and Mithras historical human beings who rose from the dead?
- Status