Does God exist?

[MegaTherion]

There are so many bad arguments on this thread that it’s making my head hurt.

The biggest refrain seems to be that the proof of God is subjective experience.

This bad argument is exemplified here:

Yes! No matter for example how I may tell you that my shoes is causing great pain on my feet, the experience is only mine. It cannot be proven and I cannot prove it

Of course we all have subjective experiences that are real to us. This thread isn’t discussing whether subjective experiences happen – it’s discussing whether an entity called god is objectively real (i.e. whether god exists for everybody, not just you).

If you have a pain in your foot, it’s only true for you and not all people. Since it’s a subjective sensation, no one else can confirm it (we could confirm that you had damaged your foot, but no one else could actually have your experience and confirm that you indeed feel what you claim to feel).

However, when we talk about whether a thing “exists” or not (the thread title), we’re talking about objective reality, the things that exist for all people, regardless of belief. That’s why, to demonstrate that something exists, you need evidence that is independently verifiable.

For example, my table exists. Anyone can inspect my table and determine that it exists. It doesn’t require you to “believe” in my table before I can prove to you that it’s real. It is unquestionably real.

If I claimed that I had a table, but the only evidence I had for it was that I had a subjective experience of the table, no one in their right mind would believe that the table exists. Because we do not accept claims that do not have evidence – independently verifiable evidence.

 

[MegaTherion]

If you want proof of God, simply renounce material pleasure, immerse yourself in prayer, as much as possible, repent of your sins, and follow Jesus into the desert.

…]

Then, if you are sincere, you for sure will get proof. And your proof will be a great, great big surprise.

There is nothing else in the entirety of human knowledge that requires you to accept a claim before you can be shown that the claim is true.

If you start from the assumption that god exists, of course you will be able to convince yourself that god exists. That’s called a circular argument.

 

[agangbern]

There are so many bad arguments on this thread that it’s making my head hurt.

The biggest refrain seems to be that the proof of God is subjective experience.

This bad argument is exemplified here:

Of course we all have subjective experiences that are real to us. This thread isn’t discussing whether subjective experiences happen – it’s discussing whether an entity called god is objectively real (i.e. whether god exists for everybody, not just you).

And of course subjective experiences do not happen without objective reality causing it, except of course if we are all schizophrenic. For as long as man exists, the world is composed both of subjective and objective reality. The tile of this thread cannot escape that truth! So, better prepare your head for it.

 

[agangbern]

There is nothing else in the entirety of human knowledge that requires you to accept a claim before you can be shown that the claim is true.

If you start from the assumption that god exists, of course you will be able to convince yourself that god exists. That’s called a circular argument.

It is not really a circular argument. Scientists often first formulate a hypothesis or theory. Then they perform an experiment to prove the truth of that theory.

One may perform the same in relation to the truth of God’s existence. He first formulate a hypothesis that God exists. Then undertake to verify with his own life whether the hypothesis is true.

 

[ready]

Jesus raised a man from the dead and Himself was raised from the dead as witnessed by many others - a great number of people at the same time were able to objectively witness to this. He performed many miracles and deliverances that only God could do (or one possessed by the Devil – if that were possible (Jesus shows us it isn’t possible for the Devil to cast out the Devil.)

If you can’t accept the testimony of the Bible as factual and that God the Father worked not only through His Son but was of the same essence (that the Father and Sone were one) then there really is no way other way that I can sway you, I guess, -other than your recieving the grace from God another way.

 

[MegaTherion]

And of course subjective experiences do not happen without objective reality causing it, except of course if we are all schizophrenic. For as long as man exists, the world is composed both of subjective and objective reality. The tile of this thread cannot escape that truth! So, better prepare your head for it.

But our subjective experiences can mislead us.

My subjective experience tells me that the sun goes around the earth – but we can investigate the (independently verifiable) evidence to determine that the opposite is the case.

My subjective experience gets it wrong pretty often…my senses by themselves (without independent evidence) are a pretty bad judge of things.

The “experience” that most believers speak of seems to be nothing more than heightened emotions. You can easily whip yourself into an emotional frenzy if you passionately pray. You can whip yourself into the same frenzy regardless of what you pray to (Hindus get the same warm and fuzzy feeling that you do when you pray…we’ve confirmed it with brain scans).

The fact that you can get emotionally worked up doesn’t indicate that there’s a god.

It is not really a circular argument. Scientists often first formulate a hypothesis or theory. Then they perform an experiment to prove the truth of that theory.

What a horrible analogy. You don’t need to have faith in someone else’s hypothesis for that person to show you that it is true.

I don’t need to believe in relativity in order to be shown that it’s real. I can doubt relativity and be extremely hostile to the idea, but once you show me the data, I cannot do anything but accept it.

 

[Sideline]

One may perform the same in relation to the truth of God’s existence. He first formulate a hypothesis that God exists. Then undertake to verify with his own life whether the hypothesis is true.

Oddly, enough, this is what I did. I lived my life as if God existed for decades. The world made no sense. I stopped living life as if God existed, and now the world does make sense.

So, according to the line of reasoning on this thread… I have all the evidence I need to know that God doesn’t exist. My own personal experience of God’s non-existence.

But then how do we explain the people on this thread who say they do experience God? I see four options:

1. Perhaps I didn’t really believe… but I experienced my belief, and I know it was real.
2. Maybe God wanted to test me, refusing to show me his grace while bestowing it on others. Could be true, but it seems to suggest God a sadistic jerk.
3. I’m wrong. I did feel God’s presence, but didn’t recognize for what it was.
4. You are wrong. You thought what you felt was God’s presence, but it was really something else.

Unless someone can produce some tangible, objective evidence, then I’m going to trust me over you. Call me crazy.

 

[MegaTherion]

If you can’t accept the testimony of the Bible as factual

Do you accept the testimony of the Baghavad Gita as factual? Do you accept the testimony of the Vedas as factual? Do you accept the oracles of Zoroaster as factual?

I don’t accept your Bible for the same reason that you don’t accept those books – they’re all a bunch of stories that contain no eyewitness testimonies, no contemporary accounts, no corroborating data.

And before you say it, no, there’s nothing that demonstrates that the disciples wrote the gospels. In fact, the gospels were all written by anonymous followers of the Christian cult several generations to a century after Christ supposedly lived.

It’s possible that there was a person named Jesus upon whom the legends of the Bible were based, but there is no evidence that the legendary figure of the gospels existed.

 

[agangbern]

Oddly, enough, this is what I did. I lived my life as if God existed for decades. The world made no sense. I stopped living life as if God existed, and now the world does make sense.

It could be that the procedure for the experiment was incomplete and/or the instruments were lacking.

We should know that the objective of our experiment is so immense almost beyond our mental powers. Therefore, we should be prepared to pour out even our life if it is needed just to complete the experiment.

 

[Sideline]

It could be that the procedure for the experiment was incomplete and/or the instruments were lacking.

We should know that the objective of our experiment is so immense almost beyond our mental powers. Therefore, we should be prepared to pour out even our life if it is needed just to complete the experiment.

Are you dead yet? You strike me as a fairly alive person, so I’m guessing the answer is no.

Most people who claim to know God do not have to spend their entire lives in this experiment. So either they were wrong, or you are wrong about how long it takes.

And just as a post script: I’ve wasted enough of my life on it.

 

[PJM]

As an agnostic I can honestly say that I do not know. I doubt very seriously that it is the god of abraham.

I learned this in a Saint Michaels Apologetics Class

Post 1 of 2
How to prove we have a soul and that God does exist
In two part’s.

Part 1

A philosophical guide to Christian Logic; defending our Faith

1. We must seek Wisdom where it is found and we must seek understanding through “logic.”
2. An intellectual exercise.
3. We must be able to understand “logic” sufficiently to understand ourselves, how to use it in explaining various TRUTHS of our Faith. Thus. We must accept it ourselves. “One cannot share what one does nor possess.”
4. An FYI: Priest are first trained in Philosophy to prepare them to understand how to “think logically.”
5. The three Foundational Principles of All Logic
6. A “THING” is what it is
7. A “THING” is NOT another THING
8. A “THING” is either Caused or it is It’s Own Cause (self-sufficient)
9. A “THING” is what it is… nothing less and nothing more
10. To be “self-sufficient” means that “it needs nothing else.” It is completely self-sufficient, thus it is “PERFECT.”
11. Stated again: a THING that is self-sufficient is PERFECT
12. What does PERFECT MEAN? Nothing missing, nothing more needed.

Example: If you get a 100% on a test. It is “perfect.” Nothing can be added to make it “more perfect,” and taking anything away from it makes it “im-perfect.”

1. “Self-sufficient” means: That it never had to be created! If it had to be created, then it
   was not “self-sufficient” to begin with.
2. CREATO is Latin for created.
3. For some-THING to exist it either had to be 1. Created, or 2. HAD to ”Always be!”
4. Either it is CREATED or It is the CREATOR!

   1. The Philosophical CORE of all Logic

5. How does one discern “The Origin?”
6. Everything has two properties.
7. EXISTANCE = That it is!
8. ESSENCE = What it is
9. This is the very philosophical core of “Being!”
10. For Human Life the FACT of our “existence” is…
11. For humanity, our Existence is “FINITE.” Which means with a beginning and an end.
12. The “WHAT” of our existence is defined by our ESSENCE.
13. All creatures, indeed, all creation is defined by it’s ESSENCE
14. Definition = “De /finit/ ion “ = setting it’s limits, and labeling it
15. By breaking it down and eliminating what IT “is not,” we are left with what IT is!
    

                             5.     Definition of the CREATOR

16. God has defined Himself as “I AM”   
    
             Exodus Chapter 3: “13	 Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations”

    “I AM” The Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end, the one who always was, is, and always shall be.
    

                2.   God is defined by God’s Existence = God is!
    
                                   3.    CREATURES are defined by their ESSENCE
    
        4.    In Him we LIVE, MOVE and HAVE OUR BEING

17. Our Existence FLOWS FROM God’s Existence
18. Through Him all things “are made” (brought into existence.)

God… is… God

Man… is… man

God is NOT man

Man is NOT God

1. ONLY GOD can say, “My Essence is to be in Existence!”

2.  All “FINITE” Existence Flows THROUGH the Infinite (God alone)

3. The three BIG Misunderstandings

4. The Nature of man = body, soul in unity!

5. The nature of God = Spirit

6. Misunderstanding the nature of “Heaven.”
   
           Not understanding these three issues, is the root cause of misunderstanding with all 
           other religions
   
                            7.     The Nature of Man

7. How can we know that our bodies have a SOUL?
8. What is “MATTER” = as it relates to humanity = that which is composed of body parts
9. That “Which is “NOT MATTER” is single cannot be broken down has No PARTS
10. Something with “NO PARTS” we call SPIRITUAL
    

                                  8.     The Human Soul is

11. “It Is” (spiritual and immaterial)
12. “It Is Here”
13. “It Is Now”
14. How can we know that the Human Soul exist?
15. The Human Soul Generates Ideas, one cannot separate “An Idea!”
16. “Ideas” have “No Parts”, and thus are ‘SPIRITUAL”, proving the existence of our soul.
17. Where do “ideas” originate? In our soul!
    

                                    9.     The Basic Principles involved

18. The rule of The Material and the Immaterial Universe
19. A corolary result: Ideas are Spiritual, the “brain” is Material. A “spiritual thing” cannot be generated or created by a “Material Thing.”
20. Everything that is “made” comes from something greater than itself
21. Something cannot give “what it does not possess.”
22. How does an idea come into existence? Before the wheel. Air travel Ect. someone had to formulate the idea for them.
23. Matter is always inferior to the immaterial
24. The “Spirit” always rules “Matter.” “Matter” obeys (at the service of) the “spirit.”
25. The lesser of two things cannot rule the greater of two things (can’t give what it does not possess). And the lesser of two things can’t generate the greater of two things.

Example: A man “can make” a house
But a house cannot make a man

 

[ready]

Relativity is declared a law by science, that could possibly be why you accept it. If it weren’t law, then faith in one hypothesis over another is what you would require to work with in judging one hypotheses over another… unless you were perhaps hostile to both hypotheses made and dismiss everything as possible nonsense and not deserving a second look…until one of the hypotheses becomes a scientific law.

Believe Jesus at least died for you…and take it from there…Deliberately chose Christ and see what happens. Keep searching. Chose yes, like Mary did. Peace!

 

[PJM]

Post 2 of 2

Proving God’s Existence PART 2

1. Conclusion: Everything made is made by something GREATER than itself. The
   Mind must be greater than the idea.
2. The “brain” is “Matter” but the “Mind” is Spiritual. Ideas originate in ones
   “mind,” proving the existence of a ‘Spirit” within us that we call “our Soul!”

3. For an idea to be created, the mind must be greater than the brain.

   1. Example: Think of “peanut-butter.”
        Some may think of a “jar of PB,” it could be a “small jar,” or a “large jar,” it could
        Be ‘Chunky” or “Creamy, ” it could be a PB sandwich or something else? It is a  
        Personal “idea” that could be somewhat different for each of us. Proving that we 
        Have the potential to create our own ideas!
      
        Now measure your IDEA. Not what you thought of, but the idea itself. How long,  
        Wide, deep was it? And how much did your idea weigh? Can’t answer can you? 
        Thus we have just proven that ideas are Spiritual.

4. A MIND can not only have “an original idea,” it has the ability to have multiple
   ideas and to group them together and to from concepts and thought patterns.

5. Both immaterial and material THINGS have a “pecking order.” A priority of importance and significance.

   Mind = a thought, and idea, and an original thought and an original concept
   
   Matter = a cell, a blade of grass, a tree, a dog and a human being

   1. The mind is able to group ideas and develop thought patterns.

   Example: a chair; a dining room, a desk chair, and a recliner are all “chairs.”

6. Proving that GOD does exist 
   
    1.     2+2 = 4 …. This Proves that God exist

7. Show me “four.” No, not four fingers, no not four of anything, show me “four.”
8. Again I ask you, show me “four.” You can’t, and yet we know with certitude that 2 + 2 = 4.
9. “four” has no touch
   “ has no humanity
   “ has no Nationalism
   “ has no Patriotism
   “ has no holiness
10. We can only show Examples, only part of what “four is.” So what does this give evidence of?
11. It brings to light “finite,” things that have a beginning and an end. And “infinite” things, that have no beginning and no end. It also points out that both material things and immaterial things exist.
12. How can a “finite creature,” humanity, so something in the immaterial world? We cannot!
13. There has to be, and there is, an immaterial POWER that can group thoughts, and Form other thoughts.
14. Thoughts can ONLY COME FROM an immaterial source.
    Something can only be what it is
    Something cannot be what it is not
    A thing is either is either CAUSED or it is it’s OWN CAUSE
15. This IMMATERIAL SOMETHING, this source, we call GOD!
16. Matter = has either FEW parts or SEVERAL parts
17. Human Thoughts
18. Are immaterial and have NO PARTS
19. “No PARTS” = Spiritual
    

              12.  The Human Soul

20. The soul is personal, belongs to a single person and every person has a soul.
21. The “soul” is synonymous (means the same) as “INTELLECT.”
22. The intellect has the ability to know moral rights and wrong. This function we call Conscience.
23. Intellect and “brain” are not the same. The Brain is material, while the “intellect” is immaterial.
24. Intellect in both personal and unique. No two are the same. My unique intellect, my unique will, my unique memory, all three are personally mine.
25. A spiritual “thing” must be generated by another spiritual thing.
26. Therefore our soul is generated (caused by) this spirit that we call “GOD.”
27. We also have “personal material things.” For example; “my parents.”
28. Something Lesser cannot make (cause to be) something Greater. Cannot give what they don’t have.
29. Spirit is Greater than Matter.
30. Spirit commands (directs) matter. Example: Lift your arm, now put it down. Your Spirit (intellect) just directed your Material – arm.
31. A soul cannot procreate, nor can it be procreated; has NO PARENTS.
32. A Spirit / Soul has no parts. It is one but has multiple functions. Thought’s, ideas, evaluation, calculation, moral certitude, knowledge, and awareness.
33. What is the Human Person?
34. A person consists of BOTH material and immaterial parts.
35. Personal material parts: my eyes, my arms my head Ect. And my immaterial intellect, which we call, my personal SOUL.
    

             13.     What is the origin of our soul?

36. A “Thing” can only give what it has
37. The Soul has no parts, has no parents, so it HAD TO BE CALLED INTO EXISTENCE.
38. That which calls our personal souls into existence, has to be GREATER in the Spiritual realm, than the soul, because only a greater Spirit can cause another spirit into being. That Greater Spirit is what we call God.

John Chapter 1: “1”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.”

Taken from, St. Michaels apolgetics class

 

[agangbern]

But our subjective experiences can mislead us.

My subjective experience tells me that the sun goes around the earth – but we can investigate the (independently verifiable) evidence to determine that the opposite is the case.

I don’t think you really experienced it that the sun goes around the earth. You simply made a theory about the sun. You did not experience the sun moving around the earth. Proposing a theory and actually experiencing are two different things.

What a horrible analogy. You don’t need to have faith in someone else’s hypothesis for that person to show you that it is true.

I don’t need to believe in relativity in order to be shown that it’s real. I can doubt relativity and be extremely hostile to the idea, but once you show me the data, I cannot do anything but accept it.

Horrible it may seem to you. That’s alright. You are simply expressing your own subjective experience. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that the analogy is also horrible to all.

Yes, you don’t need to to believe in someone’s hypothesis. You are invited to conduct an experiment yourself with your own life as the specimen and unceasing prayer, sacrifice and love as the instruments.

 

[Snerticus]

Aquinas’s arguments are old and were not based on modern science.

Did you know that matter can be created spontaneously and that this has been observed in a laboratory? IE…there was no first cause of it?

There is no, and never will be any proof of god. If people trust their religious experiences, then so be it. But proof requires empiricle evidence.

It astounds me, how many people fight for their belief in God, and seem to only belief in him because of what another humans told them or gave them an argument?

It’s like you are believing in what people tell you, and not something that is actually real.

I’ll pray that you have your own personal experience with Him.

Some of us HAVE had empirical evidence shown to us directly by Him. Therefore, since we have seen/heard/felt ourselves, we know.

Those that haven’t any faith nor proof will never understand. Those who do have faith yet have never had proof to me are the greatest and most blessed. I could only hope to have that much faith one day. I feel like Thomas, who needed to see in order to believe. God granted me that and I now believe. Had He not done it, I would be probably be in your shoes.

 

[agangbern]

Are you dead yet? You strike me as a fairly alive person, so I’m guessing the answer is no.

Most people who claim to know God do not have to spend their entire lives in this experiment. So either they were wrong, or you are wrong about how long it takes.

And just as a post script: I’ve wasted enough of my life on it.

Not everyone needed to pour out their life to its extinguishment to complete the experiment. Others were just so lucky that they have completed it early. What I am saying is: the attitude that easily surrenders would make the instruments for this experiment lacking.You think you have wasted enough of your life on it! That is a very subjective experience of yours. To others, it maybe that you have not even yet wasted a percent of your life on it.

 

[Snerticus]

This is a really interesting post.

I was once a Catholic and prayed fervently. I spent at least 3 hours a day in prayer for several years. I think if I ever experienced anything at all god-like in that time I would still be a believer. I would gladly have accepted my own experience over any argument.

As it is I have no experience to go on, only my sense of reason. Try as I might justify my faith through reason and evidence, I was completely unable to do so. Slowly but surely, I became an atheist. You have no idea how galling it is to read that people think I was just hard hearted, or simple-minded, or stupid for losing my faith in God. (I’m not pointing fingers at anyone on this thread by the way.)

Perhaps the reason I couldn’t find the evidence or the proof was that I had a hardened heart, but I find that hard to believe as I was actually looking to deepen my faith in God. I wasn’t able to experience him emotionally, so maybe I could experience him intellectually. How is that hardening one’s heart.

Perhaps it was that I was just illogical, stupid, uneducated or otherwise deficient in reason compared to the luminaries of this board. But if that were the case, why do so many of them use arguments that are so obviously fallacies. To use a metaphor, it is hard to listen to a person who seems to be struggling with basic arithmetic lecture you on the transcendent nature of mathematics.

I think you are right, essentially, if I had experienced God, I would have believed in him. But, I haven’t experienced God, and I find it as hard to accept someone else’s experience of God as I do accepting someone else’s experience of Vishnu.

Sideline, I think that God knows where you are and why you are there and for some reason is using it to draw you back. I know of many who have backstepped only to go forward at warp speed. Your reasoning sounds like it’s right on track and you may very well have some sort of experience, though not necessarily a physical one. I have hope that you’ll come back. Trust me, if I can, so can you (although I don’t think I would have classified myself as an atheist. Agnostic, perhaps).

 

[Snerticus]

The problem is that if definite proof of god’s existence was ever discovered then free will goes in the toilet and we all become robots. Very sad.

The angels were once in our very shoes. And Lucifer saw God face to face. Yet, he STILL had the free will to say no. We won’t become robots.

Yet there will never be valid proof for those who aren’t open to it.

 

[Snerticus]

I don’t accept your Bible for the same reason that you don’t accept those books – they’re all a bunch of stories that contain no eyewitness testimonies, no contemporary accounts, no corroborating data.

Prove it.

 

[1holycatholic]

Aquinas’s arguments are old and were not based on modern science.

Aquinas’ arguments aren’t scientific arguments.

Did you know that matter can be created spontaneously and that this has been observed in a laboratory? IE…there was no first cause of it?

Link please. :coffeeread: