Does God have free will?

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Does God have free will? That is, could God have chosen otherwise? Chosen not to create the world (as traditional theism holds)?

God’s “choice” (if that is the right word) to create the world would have to be an eternal choice because God is eternal. And if God’s choice to create the world was eternal, then the world would be co-eternal with God. IOW, there would never be a time when the world did not exist even though the world exists in time and God outside of it.

There appears to be two paradoxes (or contradictions) here:
  1. How could God have chosen otherwise if his choice was eternal?
  2. How can the world exist everlastingly in time? This would seem to imply an infinite regress?
 
hangnail said:
Does God have free will? That is, could God have chosen otherwise? Chosen not to create the world (as traditional theism holds)?

God’s “choice” (if that is the right word) to create the world would have to be an eternal choice because God is eternal. And if God’s choice to create the world was eternal, then the world would be co-eternal with God. IOW, there would never be a time when the world did not exist even though the world exists in time and God outside of it.

There appears to be two paradoxes (or contradictions) here:
  1. How could God have chosen otherwise if his choice was eternal?
  2. How can the world exist everlastingly in time? This would seem to imply an infinite regress?
Click to expand...
Why do you object to an infinite regress?
 
If God doesn’t have free will, what is controlling God and preventing that free will?
:confused:
 
hangnail said:
Does God have free will? That is, could God have chosen otherwise? Chosen not to create the world (as traditional theism holds)?

God’s “choice” (if that is the right word) to create the world would have to be an eternal choice because God is eternal. And if God’s choice to create the world was eternal, then the world would be co-eternal with God. IOW, there would never be a time when the world did not exist even though the world exists in time and God outside of it.

There appears to be two paradoxes (or contradictions) here:
  1. How could God have chosen otherwise if his choice was eternal?
  2. How can the world exist everlastingly in time? This would seem to imply an infinite regress?
Click to expand...
It’s absurd to think of a created creature (the world) as being co-eternal with what created it (God).

It’s also absurd to think of eternal “choice” as if God at one point didn’t consider creating the world and then at another point “chose” to(as if He was bored and needed something to do). The world was eternally within His plan, as you were, but it in no way follows that it, or you, are co-eternal with God.
 
hangnail said:
Did you read the OP?
Click to expand...
Yep. I just thought there might be a better term than"free will" to describe what is being discussed. Not sure what it would be, but the term has certain connotations in popular usage that could not be applied to an omnipotent God.

Or maybe I’m just wrong! 🙂
 
Amandil said:
It’s absurd to think of a created creature (the world) as being co-eternal with what created it (God)
Click to expand...
No it isn’t for reasons I have already explained in the OP. Just saying my argument is “absurd” doesn’t make it so. You actually have to provide some kind of counterargument that demonstrates why it is absurd.
Amandil said:
It’s also absurd to think of eternal “choice” as if God at one point didn’t consider creating the world and then at another point “chose” to(as if He was bored and needed something to do).
Click to expand...
You’re putting words in my mouth. The decision to create is co-eternal with God because God is eternal. And if the decision to create is co-eternal with God, then it seems to imply that creation is also co-eternal with God.

You haven’t furnished any kind of counterargument to explain how God could have not created the world. Neither have you furnished any kind of counterargument to explain how the world is not co-eternal with God.
 
BTW, if God has free will does that mean that it is not true that He never changes. We are taught that God never changes, but if later on He chooses something, which He did not choose before, does this not indicate a change of some sort?
 
hangnail said:
Does God have free will? That is, could God have chosen otherwise? Chosen not to create the world (as traditional theism holds)?

God’s “choice” (if that is the right word) to create the world would have to be an eternal choice because God is eternal. And if God’s choice to create the world was eternal, then the world would be co-eternal with God. IOW, there would never be a time when the world did not exist even though the world exists in time and God outside of it.

There appears to be two paradoxes (or contradictions) here:
  1. How could God have chosen otherwise if his choice was eternal?
  2. How can the world exist everlastingly in time? This would seem to imply an infinite regress?
Click to expand...
Appearances can be decieving. God is absolutely free, he was not bound to create a universe at all. But he did and he created one " in time" ; that is, one which had an absolute beginning. God does not " choose " between various " things, " he knows and wills what he deems best. His freedom is not in " choosing, " it is in willing to do or not to do. And there is no contradiction in that, no paradox. You must keep in mind that in God there is no discursive reasoning like men have. He knows an wills what is best, period. He does not need to reflect.

There is no contrdiction in God creating a universe in time. God is all powerful, he could have been creating the universe eternally; but, in fact, he did not do so. If he has the power to create eternally, he certainly has the power to create a time bound universe. I see no contradiction.

Take this example. I can build a car that will top in at 150 MPH. Instead, I build one that tops in at 100 MPH. Is that a contrdiction? No, because I had the power to do either. The same with God. He created a time bound universe. But with him there was no " choosing " between a alternatives. He knew and willed what was best.

Linus2nd
 
hangnail said:
  1. How can the world exist everlastingly in time? This would seem to imply an infinite regress?
Click to expand...
When you refer to ‘the world’, are you referring to the natural universe, if so, I have seen no claim that it must be everlasting in time.

In fact, that would be a contradiction, as ‘time’ is an element of the natural universe. The corollary would be that it is meaningless to speak of time in any context outside of the natural universe.
 
hangnail said:
No it isn’t for reasons I have already explained in the OP. Just saying my argument is “absurd” doesn’t make it so. You actually have to provide some kind of counterargument that demonstrates why it is absurd.
Click to expand...
It’s absurd to think of something which has a beginning and will have an end(the world) as being eternal period. E-ternal means “non-temporal”. The world experiences change, therefore the world is temporal, not eternal.

If the world is not eternal, then it certainly cannot be “co-eternal” with God.
You’re putting words in my mouth. The decision to create is co-eternal with God because God is eternal. And if the decision to create is co-eternal with God, then it seems to imply that creation is also co-eternal with God.
Click to expand...
I would ask you to not blame others if your argument’s terms are unclear.

You’re assuming temporal instances of cause-and-effect take place in a non-temporal reality, yet you haven’t even examined or established if any change or motion takes place in eternity at all.
You haven’t furnished any kind of counterargument to explain how God could have not created the world.
Click to expand...
You’re committing the same fallacy as in the other thread: retroactive determinism. Not to mention the illogic of demanding that I somehow prove a negative premise or conclusion.
Neither have you furnished any kind of counterargument to explain how the world is not co-eternal with God.
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Counterarguments are provided when a valid argument has been made. I have yet to see anything valid in your argument.
 
Tomdstone said:
BTW, if God has free will does that mean that it is not true that He never changes. We are taught that God never changes, but if later on He chooses something, which He did not choose before, does this not indicate a change of some sort?
Click to expand...
God is outside of time. So, God doesn’t change his mind. In fact, God only made one decision, one act of will. Indeed, God is that act.
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Appearances can be decieving. God is absolutely free, he was not bound to create a universe at all. But he did and he created one " in time" ; that is, one which had an absolute beginning. God does not " choose " between various " things, " he knows and wills what he deems best. His freedom is not in " choosing, " it is in willing to do or not to do. And there is no contradiction in that, no paradox. You must keep in mind that in God there is no discursive reasoning like men have. He knows an wills what is best, period. He does not need to reflect.
Click to expand...
There is a contradiction. If God really couldn’t have chosen otherwise (in fact he really can’t choose at all), then the creation was necessary. IOW, it is not possible for there not to have been a creation.
Linusthe2nd said:
There is no contrdiction in God creating a universe in time. God is all powerful, he could have been creating the universe eternally; but, in fact, he did not do so. If he has the power to create eternally, he certainly has the power to create a time bound universe. I see no contradiction.
Click to expand...
The universe (I probably should say “multiverse”) has to be everlasting in time because God’s will to create is eternal. IOW, the creation is co-eternal with God.
Linusthe2nd said:
Take this example. I can build a car that will top in at 150 MPH. Instead, I build one that tops in at 100 MPH. Is that a contrdiction? No, because I had the power to do either. The same with God. He created a time bound universe. But with him there was no " choosing " between a alternatives. He knew and willed what was best.
Linus2nd
Click to expand...
Your decision to create is not eternal. So, your analogy fails to capture what is at issue here.
 
hangnail said:
God is outside of time. So, God doesn’t change his mind. In fact, God only made one decision, one act of will. Indeed, God is that act.
Click to expand...
How do you know that God only made one decision? It seems to me that He made quite a lot of decisions. First of all He decided to create the world. Another choice was to choose Mary as His Mother. Also, He made a decision to search Jerusalem with lamps:Zephaniah 1:12: “At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps and punish those who are complacent, who are like wine left on its dregs, who think, ‘The LORD will do nothing, either good or bad.’”
 
Tomdstone said:
How do you know that God only made one decision? It seems to me that He made quite a lot of decisions. First of all He decided to create the world. Another choice was to choose Mary as His Mother. Also, He made a decision to search Jerusalem with lamps:Zephaniah 1:12: “At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps and punish those who are complacent, who are like wine left on its dregs, who think, ‘The LORD will do nothing, either good or bad.’”
Click to expand...
God decision-making process is a nontemporal process. As such, God really makes one decision, one act of will.
 
hangnail said:
God decision-making process is a nontemporal process. As such, God really makes one decision, one act of will.
Click to expand...
I don’t see how that can be true. Can you explain how it was that he decided to search Jerusalem with lamps after he found out that people were complacent? This is an entirely different decision than the decision to create the world.
 
hangnail said:
There is a contradiction. If God really couldn’t have chosen otherwise (in fact he really can’t choose at all), then the creation was necessary. IOW, it is not possible for there not to have been a creation.

The universe (I probably should say “multiverse”) has to be everlasting in time because God’s will to create is eternal. IOW, the creation is co-eternal with God.

Your decision to create is not eternal. So, your analogy fails to capture what is at issue here.
Click to expand...
Your logic fails. There is no contradiction. It is not contradictory for God to create a time bound universe. Since God is eternal and Omnipotent, he may create or not create. If he creates he may either create an eternal or a time bound universe. And since God’s knowledge and will are one with his eternal essence, he knows and wills eternally and he has willed, eternally, to create a time bound universe. He did not have to choose between alternatives, he eternally willed to create a time bound universe. He did not have to " think " about whether or not to do it.

God’s will and action is absolutely free

St. Thomas Aquinas says: " On the other hand St. Paul tells us that ’ He worketh everything according to the council of his will. ’ Now when we act deliberately we do not will of necessity. Neither then is whatever God wills of necessity. " ( Summa Theologiae, Part 1, ques 19, article 3 )

God’s knowledge is not discursive

St. Thomas Aquinas says: " On the other hand we have the words of Augustine that God sees all things not piecemeal or one at a time, as though turning his gaze this way and that; he sees them all at once. " ( Summa Theologiae, Part 1, ques 14, article 7 )

God’s knowledge is the cause of all things. And since his knowledge of all things is as they actually exist as Ideas in the Divine Intellect, those which he knows as eternal ( the Son and the Holy Spirit ) exist as eternal and those he knows as time bound are time bound ( the created universe ).

St. Thomas Aquinas says: " On the other hand we have the words of Augustine:* God does not know all creatures, spiritual and corporeal, because they exist; but because he knows them therefore they exist.* ( Summa Theologiae, Part 1, ques 14, article 8 )

Furthermore, the Catholic Church has Defined these things infallibly.

Therefore, there is no contradiction in God’s creation of a time bound universe and he is absolutely free in all his actions.

Linus2ndd
 
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