Does God have free will?

[DanAl]

I’ve already furnished you with an explanation. God’s decision to create the world is eternal because God is eternal. This implies that the creation is co-eternal with God. It’s that simple.

 

[DanAl]

You did not answer my question; hangnail, are God’s choices determined or necessary? What are the arguments for the answer?

 

[hangnail]

You did not answer my question; hangnail, are God’s choices determined or necessary? What are the arguments for the answer?

God’s decision-making process (like ours) must either be a completely deterministic process or a partially random one. Why? Because those are the only two logical possibilities.

 

[NeuralMonk]

God’s decision-making process (like ours) must either be a completely deterministic process or a partially random one. Why? Because those are the only two logical possibilities.

Interesting, so God must be like us and in our domain of reason. Isaiah 55:8 places this concept in direct contradiction to your belief. “Indeed, my plans are not like your plans, and my deeds are not like your deeds.”

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Interesting, so God must be like us and in our domain of reason. Isaiah 55:8 places this concept in direct contradiction to your belief. “Indeed, my plans are not like your plans, and my deeds are not like your deeds.”

exactly

 

[Bahman]

Does God have free will? That is, could God have chosen otherwise? Chosen not to create the world (as traditional theism holds)?

First, lets define free will: Free will is the ability to perform a decision knowing options in a certain situation. I can provide an argument which clearly explain that God cannot have free will.

1. Existence of options mean that there exist at lease two choices that one differ from another
2. God is good
3. From (1) and (2), we can deduce that choices for God only are meaningful when the options are indifferent in quality of good because the bad option is not qualified
4. From (3) we can deduce that God can only have free will when options are indifferent
5. Indifference in existence means that there is no difference between to be and not to be
6. That means that all God’s decisions are natural which means that God is neutral too since God goodness cannot manifest itself at all
7. (2) and (6) contradict with each other hence God cannot have free will

One can assume that God is evil and reach to the same conclusion.

God’s “choice” (if that is the right word) to create the world would have to be an eternal choice because God is eternal. And if God’s choice to create the world was eternal, then the world would be co-eternal with God. IOW, there would never be a time when the world did not exist even though the world exists in time and God outside of it.

There appears to be two paradoxes (or contradictions) here:

1. How could God have chosen otherwise if his choice was eternal?

This is correct. I have an argument for that too but I am leave now.

1. How can the world exist everlastingly in time? This would seem to imply an infinite regress?

This is correct. I have an argument for that too but I am leave now.

I can provide the other two argument tomorrow if you are interested.

 

[NeuralMonk]

First, lets define free will: Free will is the ability to perform a decision knowing options in a certain situation. I can provide an argument which clearly explain that God cannot have free will.

1. Existence of options mean that there exist at lease two choices that one differ from another
2. God is good
3. From (1) and (2), we can deduce that choices for God only are meaningful when the options are indifferent in quality of good because the bad option is not qualified
4. From (3) we can deduce that God can only have free will when options are indifferent
5. Indifference in existence means that there is no difference between to be and not to be
6. That means that all God’s decisions are natural which means that God is neutral too since God goodness cannot manifest itself at all
7. (2) and (6) contradict with each other hence God cannot have free will

One can assume that God is evil and reach to the same conclusion.

This is correct. I have an argument for that too but I am leave now.

This is correct. I have an argument for that too but I am leave now.

I can provide the other two argument tomorrow if you are interested.

There is a false assumption in your logic.

You assume that God is good as a perfect human being is good. That is a failed assumption, because God was not human until Jesus… that occurrence is a separate discussion because he redefined humanity. You also assume that evil is eternally evil and is opposed to good. If you know Jesus, you know that definition is failed.

God is good like (imperfectly) topsoil grows good seed. If evil is in God’s hands, evil MUST do good, just like a good seed in topsoil, must grow. When God chooses, even if the result of that choice is evil, evil MUST do good in His will. He chose the tree in the garden, man choose to use it for evil.

God is so good, He sent his Son to us. We beat Him, betrayed Him with a kiss, denied Him, rejected him and ultimately killed Him. Jesus, being God, took the nails in His hands and turned it into salvation for the entire world. The ULTIMATE evil of killing an innocent man became salvation for all. That is my God.

To paraphrase the Hulk, “Your god is a puny god.”

My God is able to redefine evil by turning pure evil to do good.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Does God have free will? That is, could God have chosen otherwise? Chosen not to create the world (as traditional theism holds)?

God’s “choice” (if that is the right word) to create the world would have to be an eternal choice because God is eternal. And if God’s choice to create the world was eternal, then the world would be co-eternal with God. IOW, there would never be a time when the world did not exist even though the world exists in time and God outside of it.

There appears to be two paradoxes (or contradictions) here:

1. How could God have chosen otherwise if his choice was eternal?
2. How can the world exist everlastingly in time? This would seem to imply an infinite regress?

If there is a God, understood as that Perfect Being, without beginning and without end, who created all that exists, then this question is meaningless. By definition any compulsion ( lack of freedom ) would entail an imperfection and therefore could not apply to God who has no imperfections. Therefore God freely does all he does, he was not compelled to create the world.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

There is a false assumption in your logic.

You assume that God is good as a perfect human being is good. That is a failed assumption, because God was not human until Jesus… that occurrence is a separate discussion because he redefined humanity. You also assume that evil is eternally evil and is opposed to good. If you know Jesus, you know that definition is failed.

God is good like (imperfectly) topsoil grows good seed. If evil is in God’s hands, evil MUST do good, just like a good seed in topsoil, must grow. When God chooses, even if the result of that choice is evil, evil MUST do good in His will. He chose the tree in the garden, man choose to use it for evil.

God is so good, He sent his Son to us. We beat Him, betrayed Him with a kiss, denied Him, rejected him and ultimately killed Him. Jesus, being God, took the nails in His hands and turned it into salvation for the entire world. The ULTIMATE evil of killing an innocent man became salvation for all. That is my God.

To paraphrase the Hulk, “Your god is a puny god.”

My God is able to redefine evil by turning pure evil to do good.

I am afraid that I fail to see why my argument is wrong from your argument. My argument can in fact be summarized in one line: God is free if options are indifferent meaning that he cannot be good or evil.

 

[blase6]

If there is a God, understood as that Perfect Being, without beginning and without end, who created all that exists, then this question is meaningless. By definition any compulsion ( lack of freedom ) would entail an imperfection and therefore could not apply to God who has no imperfections. Therefore God freely does all he does, he was not compelled to create the world.

Linus2nd

I do not see how a lack of free will implies an imperfection. You should show how that is.

 

[NeuralMonk]

I am afraid that I fail to see why my argument is wrong from your argument. My argument can in fact be summarized in one line: God is free if options are indifferent meaning that he cannot be good or evil.

I feel for you that you are afraid and facing failure.

Your argument is wrong because you seek to define God instead of letting Him define himself. You define what God is before you prove him to not exist. It is the ontological fallacy.

Because God exists, he reveals Himself. He has done so in history, in writing and personally to billions of people. Yes, the last is the weak argument, but it is the billion plus weak argument.

I could define you as I want you to be, but that does not make my version of you, you.

God is good, He defined himself that way through his Son.
God has free will, because He repents. desiringgod.org/articles/the-repentance-of-god

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I do not see how a lack of free will implies an imperfection. You should show how that is.

That should be obvious. One who lacks free will, at least in humans, is regarded as a deficiency, an absence of something which makes us truly human. So how could God lack something which we regard as good? By definition God does not lack any perfection, therefore he possesses free will. Besides the Church teaches De Fide that God possesses free will.

Pax
Linus2nd

 

[blase6]

That should be obvious. One who lacks free will, at least in humans, is regarded as a deficiency, an absence of something which makes us truly human. So how could God lack something which we regard as good? By definition God does not lack any perfection, therefore he possesses free will. Besides the Church teaches De Fide that God possesses free will.

Pax
Linus2nd

No, it is not obvious. If anything, it is pointless to say that God has a choice if those “choices” are necessitated by his perfect good nature. I already explain in the other thread how free will is a contradiction. Maybe you can explain better? Because I don’t get it anymore.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

No, it is not obvious. If anything, it is pointless to say that God has a choice if those “choices” are necessitated by his perfect good nature. I already explain in the other thread how free will is a contradiction. Maybe you can explain better? Because I don’t get it anymore.

The difficult you are having is forgetting that God is not human. He does not need to mull over ’ choices, ’ he knows and wills what he does. Anyway, even if you can’t see it, that is the Dogmatic of the Church that God does everything freely…

Pax
Linus2nd

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The difficult you are having is forgetting that God is not human. He does not need to mull over ’ choices, ’ he knows and wills what he does. Anyway, even if you can’t see it, that is the Dogmatic of the Church that God does everything freely…

Pax
Linus2nd

 

[blase6]

The difficult you are having is forgetting that God is not human. He does not need to mull over ’ choices, ’ he knows and wills what he does. Anyway, even if you can’t see it, that is the Dogmatic of the Church that God does everything freely…

Pax
Linus2nd

I did not mean that God considers “choices” within a sense of time. I was simply stating that it seems that God’s eternal act is necessitated by his nature. Saying God “can” or “cannot” do something is meaningless, because possibility/potential are not found to exist apart from human ideas, but actuality is readily observed. Thus it would make sense that only actuality exists, not potential, and therefore free will does not exist.

 

[NeuralMonk]

Thus it would make sense that only actuality exists, not potential, and therefore free will does not exist.

This would only make sense if you knew there are no other actualities and therefore, your ability to contradict what God has declared regarding his personality is in doubt.

 

[blase6]

This would only make sense if you knew there are no other actualities and therefore, your ability to contradict what God has declared regarding his personality is in doubt.

In the idea of potential, contradicting options can coexist because they are not actualized. But no two actualities can be contradictory.

 

[NeuralMonk]

In the idea of potential, contradicting options can coexist because they are not actualized. But no two actualities can be contradictory.

This still is an assumption without empirical knowledge.

 

[blase6]

This still is an assumption without empirical knowledge.

Show me where in the real world two truths are contradictory.