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Lisa44
Guest
Thank you Bruno.
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PazzoGrande
Guest
Seriously, this is getting childish. Weāre using our religion for a childish fight, which was why I opted out of this two days ago.Thank you Bruno.
Letās agree on this:
#1 You will not find anything in the Bible that explicitly answers this and neither will we.
#2 We read your source; youāre welcome to read the ones we cited and make your mind up from there.
#3 One of the problems we had with your source was that he was a protestant, whereas the sources we had were Catholic and have experience in demonology that wasnāt just theoretical, and they have worldwide reputations for being experts in this field ā not to mention they have studied the Bible and theology from a Catholic standpoint and are speaking as experts on both. If you can find a source with an advanced Catholic background in the topic, weāll read and consider whatever that theologian has to say.
Now, can we move on? Itās gone nowhere. Letās agree to disagree and not waste this useful thread. I found the topic of Aquinas to be much more fruitful than this irritating waste-of-a-time debate that youāve been perpetuating.
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tonyrey
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No mention of destruction!
āFor this purpose the Son of God appeared, thatHe might destroy** the works** of the devil.ā Not the devil himself!
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Lisa44
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The first quote says āthe eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angelsā
So YES, the devil will be destroyed.
Sorry, but Iām not understanding how you can read these verses and see no destruction of the devil? Not only the devil, but everyone who follows him (those who are ācursedā).
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Anathama_Sit
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Greetings Lisa44,
I am not understanding you can are reading these verses and seeing the word ādestroyedā in these verses? I am not understanding why you are persisisting in an error.
I have to ask something. The more I have looked over your posts, I see this need that you have of having to prove something. I think there are deeper issues in your life than what your last posts have belied. It has seemed that you are almost taking a fiendish enjoyment of the the devil and those that follow the devil being destroyed. [Even though they will not be destroyed, their works will.] Why is this? I am glad that you are not God, for to fall under your sense of justice and love would be a terrible thing for any, Satan included, to fall under.
If I can caution in, the Bible does say Judge not, lest you be judged. Even St. Michael the Archangel would suffer no judgement to pass from his lips when Satan was disputing with him over Mosesās body. St. Micheal only said āThe Lord rebuke you.ā You could do very well to learn from St. Michael.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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BrunoMaria
Guest
One should never say others persist on error, but rather seek own errors and never be too sure to be right
Mt 7,5 + Mt 23,24
A close German friend of mine just answered the topic here I told him about, suchlike (only humbly translated):
It would be a fatal simplification to claim: SINCE GOT IS LOVE - HE ALSO LOVES SATAN.
But just as well it would be an incomprehension of divine and by our Church taught truths, to say: AS GOD DOESNāT LOVE SATAN, HE HATES HIM.
Absence of love doesnāt have to mean hate. Many we donāt love at all, but weād never think to hate them instead either. We feel indifferent towards them.
Satan is not worthy Godās love, the much however he desires it - and he knows this fact, and therefore increases his wickedness in trying to hurt God by tearing off God as many as possible. Satan rebuked Godās love when he and his legions rebelled against God and consequently where banned off heaven. God certainly doesnāt love this creature whom God once created as Angel, but who made himself a devil. God certainly never created a devil, who now takes so many off Godās beloved people off God, because their free will opened them for Satan.
Satan with his temping Jesus Christ, even tried to destroy Godās only begotten Son Jesus Christ, when he promised to show the world hellās true ugly face, which would have made the world and all turn to God in an instant.
Jesus knew, that in His self-chosen salvation of many by giving Himself to this torturous death, Jesus only could save many - never all. Even a Minority Jesus would save.
Now Satan promised that he gave his humans who turned to Satan, away to God - simply by showing the world hells depravity and lived mortal eternity.
This indeed was ever so tempting to Jesus, for in His overwhelming love, He even might have agreed to destroy Himself, for the sake of salvation of ALL for His Fatherās humans. (see the Popeās book Jesus of Nazareth āTemptation of Jesusā which brought me to this conclusion).
Now Jesus resisted on the cost that only many are saved. But to Satan it was worth a try to hit God at the outmost possible. Now; how can anyone, considering all these aspects, still say; āGod loves Satanā ?!
Godās wrath remains eternally on those whom He condemned. There is no room for love. If God would love Satan and all in hell, this would hurt God eternally. A indeed unthinkable constellation. Satanās and hellās fate is eternal and irreversible. There are no remains of divine love in hell. Hell is abandoned from God. God would never abandon what He loves.
Yours
Bruno
Mt 7,5 + Mt 23,24
A close German friend of mine just answered the topic here I told him about, suchlike (only humbly translated):
It would be a fatal simplification to claim: SINCE GOT IS LOVE - HE ALSO LOVES SATAN.
But just as well it would be an incomprehension of divine and by our Church taught truths, to say: AS GOD DOESNāT LOVE SATAN, HE HATES HIM.
Absence of love doesnāt have to mean hate. Many we donāt love at all, but weād never think to hate them instead either. We feel indifferent towards them.
Satan is not worthy Godās love, the much however he desires it - and he knows this fact, and therefore increases his wickedness in trying to hurt God by tearing off God as many as possible. Satan rebuked Godās love when he and his legions rebelled against God and consequently where banned off heaven. God certainly doesnāt love this creature whom God once created as Angel, but who made himself a devil. God certainly never created a devil, who now takes so many off Godās beloved people off God, because their free will opened them for Satan.
Satan with his temping Jesus Christ, even tried to destroy Godās only begotten Son Jesus Christ, when he promised to show the world hellās true ugly face, which would have made the world and all turn to God in an instant.
Jesus knew, that in His self-chosen salvation of many by giving Himself to this torturous death, Jesus only could save many - never all. Even a Minority Jesus would save.
Now Satan promised that he gave his humans who turned to Satan, away to God - simply by showing the world hells depravity and lived mortal eternity.
This indeed was ever so tempting to Jesus, for in His overwhelming love, He even might have agreed to destroy Himself, for the sake of salvation of ALL for His Fatherās humans. (see the Popeās book Jesus of Nazareth āTemptation of Jesusā which brought me to this conclusion).
Now Jesus resisted on the cost that only many are saved. But to Satan it was worth a try to hit God at the outmost possible. Now; how can anyone, considering all these aspects, still say; āGod loves Satanā ?!
Godās wrath remains eternally on those whom He condemned. There is no room for love. If God would love Satan and all in hell, this would hurt God eternally. A indeed unthinkable constellation. Satanās and hellās fate is eternal and irreversible. There are no remains of divine love in hell. Hell is abandoned from God. God would never abandon what He loves.
Yours
Bruno
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tonyrey
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āSo YES, the devil will be destroyed.ā
There is no time in the spiritual world: either the devil is destroyed or he isnāt. Which is true?
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BrunoMaria
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Sorry - I just saw now: I spelled Got for God in the beginning of my post. Well - this sometimes happens to me, for the German word for God, is Gott
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tonyrey
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If those in hell are abandoned by God they cease to exist - and hell doesnāt exist!
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someguy14
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God is Love.
Satan rejected it.
Satan rejected it.
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tonyrey
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Satan rejects Godās love but that does not mean that Godās love for him ceases. Why should the Creatorsās love be altered by what His creature does?
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someguy14
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God is all Love . May God bless.
. May God bless.
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tonyrey
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That is all we need to know.God is all Love
God bless.
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Lisa44
Guest
Revelation 20:7-10āSo YES, the devil will be destroyed.ā
There is no time in the spiritual world: either the devil is destroyed or he isnāt. Which is true?
When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and consumed them. And the devil who had decieved them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Lisa44,
Being tormented day and night and being destroyed are two different things. A look in the Websterās dictionary will enlighten you as to the difference.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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tqualey
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Hi, Anathama,
Now, donāt be so quick to jump on Lisaās B-B-Qued pig analogy. Yes, it did not fit the caseā¦ but, we have this roasted pig we should really be makiing friends with as we discuss better analogies ā¦
And while I totally agree with you on this, Anathama - and, for all the reasons you have given, I am forced to reflect on what an old buddy of mine, āSeattle Jimā had to say on this point: (Godās love [or non loveā¦ Jim is very even-handed] of the Devil) āDoes not effect our salvation one bit.ā And, that is hard to argue against!
I must confess that it has been a l-o-o-o-n-g time since I thought of the Scholastics and some of their arguements. But, this does not seem far removed from wondering just how many angels could fit on the head of a pin! Besides, we will all find out the correct answer ā¦ and for some (like those of us who are old enough to still remember the Scholastics!) sooner than others!!
God bless
Now, donāt be so quick to jump on Lisaās B-B-Qued pig analogy. Yes, it did not fit the caseā¦ but, we have this roasted pig we should really be makiing friends with as we discuss better analogies ā¦
And while I totally agree with you on this, Anathama - and, for all the reasons you have given, I am forced to reflect on what an old buddy of mine, āSeattle Jimā had to say on this point: (Godās love [or non loveā¦ Jim is very even-handed] of the Devil) āDoes not effect our salvation one bit.ā And, that is hard to argue against!
I must confess that it has been a l-o-o-o-n-g time since I thought of the Scholastics and some of their arguements. But, this does not seem far removed from wondering just how many angels could fit on the head of a pin!
Besides, we will all find out the correct answer ā¦ and for some (like those of us who are old enough to still remember the Scholastics!) sooner than others!! God bless
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Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Tqualey,Hi, Anathama,
Now, donāt be so quick to jump on Lisaās B-B-Qued pig analogy. Yes, it did not fit the caseā¦ but, we have this roasted pig we should really be makiing friends with as we discuss better analogies ā¦
And while I totally agree with you on this, Anathama - and, for all the reasons you have given, I am forced to reflect on what an old buddy of mine, āSeattle Jimā had to say on this point: (Godās love [or non loveā¦ Jim is very even-handed] of the Devil) āDoes not effect our salvation one bit.ā And, that is hard to argue against!
I must confess that it has been a l-o-o-o-n-g time since I thought of the Scholastics and some of their arguements. But, this does not seem far removed from wondering just how many angels could fit on the head of a pin!
God bless
How about we eat the roasted pig now?
How does Godās love for us not affect our Salvation? Or did you mean the word āeffect.ā? I shall hold on further discussion until you have answered this question as I do not want to type out something long and realized that we were on different pages.
I like the Scholastics, they sure have done a lot for Catholic Theology.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Anathama,
I can almost see the coals glowing as the meat is being preparedā¦
What I meant to say ā¦ ā¦ our salvation is not dependent upon whether God loves the Devil or not. God loves us and that is solid - this thread is getting stretched from all kinds of different positions. But, in the end, the Devil and his fellow fallen angels will remain in hell for all eternity.
Maybe I just hit an inertial barrier here ā¦ I canāt get worked up about this topicā¦
While I think God loves (present tense as in the eternal nowā¦) all of His Creation - and that would include the Devilā¦ I just donāt really care about this.
Yes, the Scholastics gave us a lot - and we owe them a read debt of gratitude. But, this particular thread looks like one of them had some extra time on his handsā¦ But, tell me, to your knowledge was this ever discussed by a Scholastic ā¦ I just donāt recall anything like this.
I think the pork is read for the pit nowā¦ ah, Lisaā¦ since we are āroasting your metaphorāā¦ would you like to join usā¦?
God bless
I can almost see the coals glowing as the meat is being preparedā¦
What I meant to say ā¦
ā¦ our salvation is not dependent upon whether God loves the Devil or not. God loves us and that is solid - this thread is getting stretched from all kinds of different positions. But, in the end, the Devil and his fellow fallen angels will remain in hell for all eternity.Maybe I just hit an inertial barrier here ā¦ I canāt get worked up about this topicā¦
While I think God loves (present tense as in the eternal nowā¦) all of His Creation - and that would include the Devilā¦ I just donāt really care about this.Yes, the Scholastics gave us a lot - and we owe them a read debt of gratitude. But, this particular thread looks like one of them had some extra time on his handsā¦
But, tell me, to your knowledge was this ever discussed by a Scholastic ā¦ I just donāt recall anything like this.I think the pork is read for the pit nowā¦ ah, Lisaā¦ since we are āroasting your metaphorāā¦ would you like to join usā¦?
God bless
Greetings Tqualey,
How about we eat the roasted pig now?
How does Godās love for us not affect our Salvation? Or did you mean the word āeffect.ā? I shall hold on further discussion until you have answered this question as I do not want to type out something long and realized that we were on different pages.
I like the Scholastics, they sure have done a lot for Catholic Theology.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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Anathama_Sit
Guest
Greetings Tqualey,Hi, Anathama,
I can almost see the coals glowing as the meat is being preparedā¦
What I meant to say ā¦
Maybe I just hit an inertial barrier here ā¦ I canāt get worked up about this topicā¦
Yes, the Scholastics gave us a lot - and we owe them a read debt of gratitude. But, this particular thread looks like one of them had some extra time on his handsā¦
I think the pork is read for the pit nowā¦ ah, Lisaā¦ since we are āroasting your metaphorāā¦ would you like to join usā¦?
God bless
I am contributing some apples and some pineapples too, to add to the roasted pig.
I agree with your post. Thanks for clarifying. And no I do not remember the Scholastics discussing this.
I am putting the pork in the pit on the spit right now.
Yeah Lisaā¦ you are welcome to join in.What a great way to end this thread.
God Bless.
Anathama Sit
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tonyrey
Guest
Revelation is allegorical and not literally trueā¦
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