Does God the Father have a soul?

[Bookcat]

Amos 6:8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by HIMSELF (NEPHESH)

The Lord God does not sware by his own soul, if he has no soul!

Sure he does.

He has no soul.

He “swares” by himself…

the language of ‘soul’ in the translation is ‘human language’ to express meaning…

it is not meant to mean that God has a soul…anymore than he has other aspects used in the language of Scripture

 

[Bookcat]

And he has a right hand?

 

[Bookcat]

and feet resting on furniture?

 

[zarthan]

1 Timothy 6:16 (English Standard Version)

" who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen."

Since no one has ever seen God the Father, I do not know whether he has hands or feet. If he does, they would be the form of his soul (in a spiritual body). Something similar perhaps to the spiritual body of the soul of the rich man who cried out to Abraham (in Jesus’ teaching on the rich man and Lazarus.)

Whether God the Father’s hands and feet are to be taken allegorically or literally in some way is not the point!

The Lord GOD does not sware by his allegorical soul!

Just because Amos 6:8 and Jeremiah 51:14 is translated in English as “Himself” does not take away from the fact that in the Hebrew text the Lord GOD swore by his soul (nephesh)

Can I ask you something, will you please try to bring a little more intellectual integrity into this discussion? Side stepping the question of the Lord GOD swaring by his soul does not fit you well.

 

[Bookcat]

1 Timothy 6:16 (English Standard Version)

" who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen."

Since no one has ever seen God the Father, I do not know whether he has hands or feet. If he does, they would be the form of his soul (in a spiritual body). Something similar perhaps to the spiritual body of the soul of the rich man who cried out to Abraham (in Jesus’ teaching on the rich man and Lazarus.)

God does not have a “spiritual body”…no hands…feet etc…this is not meant by as “literal language”

Whether God the Father’s hands and feet are to be taken allegorically or literally in some way is not the point!

You make it the point by saying he “has a soul”

The Lord GOD does not sware by his allegorical soul!

He swares by God. By himself.

Just because Amos 6:8 and Jeremiah 51:14 is translated in English as “Himself” does not take away from the fact that in the Hebrew text the Lord GOD swore by his soul (nephesh)

Can I ask you something, will you please try to bring a little more intellectual integrity into this discussion? Side stepping the question of the Lord GOD swaring by his soul does not fit you well.

I have not side stepped it. I have addressed it.

But I would invite you to take a look how you side step MANY things I and others respond with.

And I invite you to take a longer look at what you are trying to do in these last two lines…and ask yourself if such is the right intellectual approach etc ( this “dismissive” approach in a kind of Ad Hominem…)

 

[zarthan]

“The Holy Father: Merciful Father, on the night before his Passion your Son prayed for the unity of those who believe in him: **in disobedience to his will, however, believers have opposed one another, becoming divided, and have mutually condemned one another and fought against one another. **We urgently implore your forgiveness and we beseech the gift of a repentant heart, so that all Christians, reconciled with you and with one another will be able, in one body and in one spirit, to experience anew the joy of full communion. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen. R. Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie, eleison; Kyrie eleison.”

[A lamp is lit before the Crucifix.]

I no longer desire to continue this discussion, you may defend your faith in the theology of the Son of God as you know it to be. I will defend the faith of the theology of God the Father and of His only begotten Son, as Bishop Eusebius and many Ante-Nicene church fathers professed. For it is the understanding that God has given me also.

I only pray with Pope John Paul II for God’s forgiveness and for repentant hearts, that all of us will be reconciled with one another in the bond of peace… knowing that we share the Apostle’s Creed.

 

[Bookcat]

15 The eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous, and his ears toward their cry. (Psalm 34:15 RSV CE)

Does God the Father have eyes or ears??

No. Such language is not meant to be “literal”…

 

[Bookcat]

"
I no longer desire to continue this discussion, you may defend your faith in the theology of the Son of God as you know it to be. I will defend the faith of the theology of God the Father and of His only begotten Son, as Bishop Eusebius and many Ante-Nicene church fathers professed. For it is the understanding that God has given me also.

Again I wish you well and invite you to read more of the Fathers…the Ante-Nicene and post Nicene for both hold to the Church and both profess the Catholic Faith…the Faith that has been handed on in the living Church gathered around Peter …guided by the Holy Spirit…

of course a single Father etc can make mistakes (certain things took time to understand and explain better)…it is Faith of the Church …not the idea of a single Father etc (not that the ante nicene writers are in agreement with your ideas) …that one looks too…not one’s personal ideas or those of a few writers etc if they are contrary to Peter and the Church.
If I have an idea…and think so much that Scripture says “such and such”…my idea must fall before truth. Before what Jesus has given us. No matter how strongly I may have “thought it so”…It must fall.

“We should never read Scripture alone because we meet too many closed doors and could easily slip into error. The Bible has been written by the People of God and for the People of God under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Only in this communion with the People of God do we truly enter into the “we”, into the nucleus of the truth that God himself wants to tell us.” Pope Benedict XVI vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20071114_en.html

I wish you well and many blessings!

(Jimmy Akin has a new book coming out in a week or so…see the “Fathers know Best” at the top of this site)

(oh and of course read the Catechism…such a great source and hope you will call in and ask Jimmy Akin some of your questions…you can call yourself “Zarthan” )

 

[zarthan]

I will continue to defend the memory of the early church fathers (pre-nicene), Bishop Eusebius and the other bishops of the Eastern Church (post-nicene). They are not isolated individuals.

"In 381 the First Council of Constantinople was called in order to attempt to deal with the ‘binitarians’, who were called Semi-Arians then. However, as the trinity was officially finalized at this time, the offended Semi-Arians walked out. “Semi Arianism…They rejected the Arian view that Christ was created and had a different nature from God (anomoios dissimilar), but neither did they accept the Nicene Creed which stated that Christ was “of one substance (homoousios) with the Father.” Semi Arians taught that Christ was similar (in Greek homoios) to the Father, or of like substance (homoiousios), but still subordinate."”

reference.findtarget.com/search/Semi-Arianism/

One will find in the writings of pre-Nicene Justin Martyr, (just for one example), that the only begotten Son of the unbegotten God were described as numerically distinct. In other words, two beings. That the Son of God was subordinate to his Father in all things.
That he is the first born of all creation. That he is the imageof the invisible God.

One would do well to read the writings of Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Irenaeus, the Apostolic Constitutions, Origen and others of the pre-Nicene era to understand why the Eastern Bishops were semi-arian. I would recommend Jimmy to read these writings with an open mind.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

zarthan:

I will continue to defend the memory of the early church fathers (pre-nicene), Bishop Eusebius and the other bishops of the Eastern Church (post-nicene). They are not isolated individuals.

Again you are dead wrong. No one needs to defend the memory of the ECFs (least of all by an ersatz semi-Arian.) The heresy of semi-Arianism was exposed and rooted out officially in the Church by the unanimous teaching of the Magisterium long long ago. Those who maintained their semi-Arianism were indeed isolated individuals.

Too bad you are not the equal of the early Christian Laity, who instinctively knew semi-Arianism was wrong, and resisted the heretical semi-Arian Bishops in union with the Orthodox Bishops and the Pope.

 

[Bookcat]

I do read them

I would point you to good Catholic scholars of that period to understand how each of the writers are to be understood … and while some were imprecise or underdeveloped etc …they all need to be understood correctly.

(as for example the notes on Justin in “Ancient Christian Writers” by Bernard (I not know enough about Bernard to fully recommend him) (1997 Paulist) but he does note --the rank of order is not intended to “suggest subordination” …but it is referring to the manifestion in “creation and revealation”…)

Just as you take certain wording in Sacred Scripture and understand it according to your personal ideas (as opposed to what the Catholic Church and various Protestant and Orthodox would hold)…I imagine you may have some personal readings here too…

But we need not go around and around here now too.

You ended the conversation.

Let it end

Take care!

 

[zarthan]

Again you are dead wrong. No one needs to defend the memory of the ECFs (least of all by an ersatz semi-Arian.) The heresy of semi-Arianism was exposed and rooted out officially in the Church by the unanimous teaching of the Magisterium long long ago. Those who maintained their semi-Arianism were indeed isolated individuals.

Too bad you are not the equal of the early Christian Laity, who instinctively knew semi-Arianism was wrong, and resisted the heretical semi-Arian Bishops in union with the Orthodox Bishops and the Pope.

“In the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me”…

I bless you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For he commands us to ‘bless those who curse you’.

 

[zarthan]

“In the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me”…

I bless you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For he commands us to ‘bless those who curse you’.

That was not a very good blessing. I think God wants me to extend His blessing over all of those who are offended by what I have written here.The joy of the Lord is my strength.

“The LORD bless you and keep you, the LORD make his face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you, the LORD lift up his countenance upon you and give you His peace.” In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[vsedriver]

Because the Church is not perfect yet.

so Jesus founded a corruption?

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by zarthan
Because the Church is not perfect yet.

CORRECTION
On ALL MATTERS regarding Faith and Morals the CC is Perfect. It’s we who are in the CC that are imperfect. [Read John 14:16-17 and John 17:14-19]

Love and prayers,

 

[zarthan]

so Jesus founded a corruption?

Jesus founded a church that needs to be cleansed into a bride without spot or blemish. Anyone who thinks that the body of Christ here on earth at the present time is spiritually without spot or blemish is missing it. Heavenly Jerusalem, the bride of Christ in heaven is without spot or blemish.

5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church and delivered himself up for it:

5:26 That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life:

5:27 That he might present it to himself, a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Douay-Rheims

 

[Bookcat]

Church Holy…yet embracing sinners:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm#II

 

[zarthan]

A Church that has pedophile priests offering up the holy Eucharist is not holy

 

[Bookcat]

A Church that has pedophile priests offering up the holy Eucharist is not holy

Sinful members.

The Body of Christ (the Church) is Holy…washed in the blood of the Lamb…made holy and guided by the Holy Spirit…

 

[Bookcat]

see above.

823 "The Church . . . is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. This is because Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is hailed as ‘alone holy,’ loved the Church as his Bride, giving himself up for her so as to sanctify her; he joined her to himself as his body and endowed her with the gift of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God."289 The Church, then, is "the holy People of God,"290 and her members are called "saints."291

824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294

825 "The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect."295 In her members perfect holiness is something yet to be acquired: "Strengthened by so many and such great means of salvation, all the faithful, whatever their condition or state - though each in his own way - are called by the Lord to that perfection of sanctity by which the Father himself is perfect."296

827 "Christ, ‘holy, innocent, and undefiled,’ knew nothing of sin, but came only to expiate the sins of the people. The Church, however, clasping sinners to her bosom, at once holy and always in need of purification, follows constantly the path of penance and renewal."299 All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners.300 In everyone, the weeds of sin will still be mixed with the good wheat of the Gospel until the end of time.301 Hence the Church gathers sinners already caught up in Christ’s salvation but still on the way to holiness:
The Church is therefore holy, though having sinners in her midst, because she herself has no other life but the life of grace. If they live her life, her members are sanctified; if they move away from her life, they fall into sins and disorders that prevent the radiation of her sanctity. This is why she suffers and does penance for those offenses, of which she has the power to free her children through the blood of Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit.302