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brb3
Guest
Ha !! Maybe the Protestants are better at rehabilitating the wayward Catholics … and then they can return again to Catholic Church — where they can Persevere til their end days.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
And I am forbidden from commenting on your assertion that the Biblical mention of dissensions was a reference to those who dissented from Church teaching? Why not use Private Messaging if you don’t want anyone else to weigh in? As far as I know, this is a public board and welcomes all comments, so long as they are not rude, and my comment was certainly not meant as rude or as an ad hominen attack. When I read something that seems off the mark, I say something, which is not to say I always get it right. If you post it in public, you should be prepared for public comments. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
PS-- I was not even aware of anything you may have said elsewhere that might be taken as a criticism. As far as my comment, it was about your statement, not about you personally.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
For me, too, the Eucharist is the main binding force that has always kept me Catholic.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
And the prize :yeah_me: goes to…?
j/k
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brb3
Guest
Poco …
We are still waiting ----- for your declaration of the Church of Christ, founded upon Peter and the Apostles, … that visibly, viably remains in today’s world.
Don’t worry, we know— that you know.
You, already a Crypto-Catholic, attending Mass secretly, …soon to enter RCIA.
We are still waiting ----- for your declaration of the Church of Christ, founded upon Peter and the Apostles, … that visibly, viably remains in today’s world.
Don’t worry, we know— that you know.
You, already a Crypto-Catholic, attending Mass secretly, …soon to enter RCIA.
P
PeaceInChrist
Guest
My friend, it is not that we wish ill upon Protestants and Reformed, but rather we wish to see unification within Christianity, not only in proclaiming Christ Jesus, but in all manner of faith and morals pertaining to Him. We must proclaim Him with one voice, in the fullness of truth. Thus, in Christian charity we do not wish any malice upon our fallen-away or separated brethren.
They are as a whole, however, theologically bumbling, with division and schism among them ever increasing, and rightly so: when authority is in the hands of every interpreter, how else can it be?
I hope that we may all be unified someday, but know that we don’t wish you ill. You’re our brother in Christ, regardless of misguided theology
S
StillCatholic
Guest
That is hysterical! Love it. And I suppose that is why I chose to be a 5th grade Catechist this year…to help the young ones understand their Catholic faith well enough to grow strong in it. But, I don’t know…all year they seemed mostly sleepy and not very interested.Ha !! Maybe the Protestants are better at rehabilitating the wayward Catholics … and then they can return again to Catholic Church — where they can Persevere til their end days.
But, at least I know seeds have been planted.
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StillCatholic
Guest
My friend, it is not that we wish ill upon Protestants and Reformed, but rather we wish to see unification within Christianity, not only in proclaiming Christ Jesus, but in all manner of faith and morals pertaining to Him. We must proclaim Him with one voice, in the fullness of truth. Thus, in Christian charity we do not wish any malice upon our fallen-away or separated brethren.
They are as a whole, however, theologically bumbling, with division and schism among them ever increasing, and rightly so: when authority is in the hands of every interpreter, how else can it be?
I hope that we may all be unified someday, but know that we don’t wish you ill. You’re our brother in Christ, regardless of misguided theology
And my prayers for that also.
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paul_c
Guest
Poco,
I’ve been pondering this for a while. The Protestant Churches share much of the truth about salvation with the Catholic Church, some more, some less, depending on how much of the original Catholic faith they happen to have held on to.
Therefore, in many cases, Protestant churches can be a stepping stone to full membership in the Catholic Church. Many come to believe in Jesus through the efforts of the Protestant churches and then when they understand the genesis of the faith and desire the fullness of truth, they become Catholic. You see that alot on these pages.
But Protestantism is a two edge sword because by its very nature, you can find a denomination that will support anything you want it to. This can be a great temptation and can pull people from the one true faith because it appeals to their desires.
So in some cases, Protestantism leads to salvation (by acting as a stepping stone to full communion with the Catholic Church) and in other cases, it leads to condemnation by drawing people away from the Catholic Church and its sacraments. Ironically, of course, the leaders of these Protestant churches desire neither to save people by leading them to the Catholic church or to cause their condemnation.
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Faithdancer
Guest
Good answer. None of us can judge Christians of other denominations!
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
The question is “apriori” (too theoretically abstract and without context) and cannot be answered without reference to more concrete detail.
One obvious ambiguity in the question is - what do you actually mean by “Catholic.”
Much of the disagreements in the last 11 pages seems to hinge on that.
Obviously God wants everyone to share in his Life (signalled by the presence of “sanctifying grace”). Many arguments in the last 11 pages seem to be caused by a misunderstanding of the relationship between “the Spirit” and sanctifying grace. They are not the same. God’s Spirit can be given to someone as a charismatic gift of “actual grace” and not as “sanctifying grace”. The former is good for His People (but the recipient of this gift may remain unjustified - it is not necessarily sanctifying grace).
One obvious ambiguity in the question is - what do you actually mean by “Catholic.”
Much of the disagreements in the last 11 pages seems to hinge on that.
Obviously God wants everyone to share in his Life (signalled by the presence of “sanctifying grace”). Many arguments in the last 11 pages seem to be caused by a misunderstanding of the relationship between “the Spirit” and sanctifying grace. They are not the same. God’s Spirit can be given to someone as a charismatic gift of “actual grace” and not as “sanctifying grace”. The former is good for His People (but the recipient of this gift may remain unjustified - it is not necessarily sanctifying grace).
W
whiter54
Guest
As I have interviewed for jobs with private schools, I have asked which Church I go to. When I say Catholic, I am told, YOU KNOW THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIAN. Therefore I have been turned down on 12 jobs that I know of. How should I respond?
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ClydeViola
Guest
Your question is self-glorifying and offensive. In the light of the many fallen priests molesting children, and the many Bishops and Cardinals that have be caught covering-up these indiscretions, perhaps a little more humility would be more appropriate, making this a very poor question. But now that you have asked……let me say this:
Code:
Jesus never espoused any one religion… In fact, He went out of His way to make certain that there were NO relics of His life left behind, nothing written by Him, no portraits or paintings of Him or by Him etc.
When studying the life of Jesus, we must separate the wheat from the chaff. We cannot let the historical echoes of men wanting the control of institutionalize religion and the riches of its coffers to affect our thinking. Remember, original sin is a myth. The concept that man has fallen and that we must pay for the sins of our ancestors is erroneous. That Jesus shed His blood and died on a cross to redeem our sins is a misconception. That some will be punished eternally in hell fire is superstition. That we can win the favor of God through sacrifice and penance to appease His wrath is barbarous. That the Father is moody and was only touched by the sorrow of His Son dying on the cross is a travesty of His character. Catholicism embraces much of the above.
When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch.
Never forget what Jesus said on the cross. ‘Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.’ And yet, not only was He a living revelation of His Father’s true character of love and mercy, but was also given the challenge to love men so much that His love would awaken the response of love in the human heart.
Must we be a Catholic to respond to this LOVE? Do you still believe that God wants all of us to be Catholic?
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MatthewMark
Guest
I’m not alarmed at the responses I find here; it’s what I expect. I’m just always turned off by the “one true church” argument. Jesus rejects no one who believes in Him, asks for forgiveness and dedicates their life to Him. Catholic or Protestant, the objective is to become more Christ-like. Simply praying certain prayers or attending a certain denominational church is not salvation. Jesus does not use religion to divide his followers. Only man does that.
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Love4All
Guest
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mb9302
Guest
What a very sad comment to make…
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PeaceInChrist
Guest
I agree with you that we must all be more Christ-like, but the Lord did give many requirements for discipleship. Among them was the Great Commission. The Apostles were commanded to go forth and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He told them that people who hear them, hear Him. He also prayed for unity in a very real, tangible way in His priestly prayer in John. Jesus wanted His followers to be so unified that they would be as the Father and He. There are many more requirements to be a disciple of Christ, as well, named throughout Scripture.
Now, if we look after Christ ascended, to Paul and the Apostles, we see they appointed men that they deemed worthy to lead after them. Paul writes to Timothy and Titus as bishops. Appointing men after them is an issue, as he also gives instructions on selecting a bishop. Bishops were, and are, appointed to carry on the Apostolic commission.
The need for unity in doctrine is seen in Acts 15, in which a decision had to be made on Judaising. Many may have claimed this was a minor issue, that circumcision was required. I mean, why didn’t they just leave the Judaisers alone and let them circumcize and follow the Old Law? They still proclaimed Christ, after all. But the Apostles decided it was not necessary, as works of the Old Testament do not save, but Christ’s sacrifice does.
If we look to the disciples of the Apostles, we again see the importance of bishops espoused, and we also see the requirement for obedience to them has always existed. Clement says that the Corinthian Church must be obedient to their bishops and priests. Ignatius emphasizes this, as well. In fact, obedience and unity are essentially the primary points of both their letters (though Ignatius also focuses on the Incarnation). This was because, immediately after the Apostles (and even during), there was widespread schism caused by the Gnostics. Unity was a primary concern of Jesus Christ, Paul, and the Apostles for a reason: there would be false shepherds, and the faithful had to have a way to discern them.
We can look only a little further (3rd generation of Christians, right after the disciples of the Apostles previously mentioned), to Irenaeus, who speaks of Apostolic succession, and obedience to bishops, as well as the importance of the Church in resolving theological disputes and the primacy of the Roman See. Nothing has changed since the beginning: it all remains in one Church.
You see, my brother in Christ, the Lord Jesus and His apostles, and their disciples after, did want unity in a very visible way. This is the more perfect way: that we be one, as Christ is in the Father and the Father in Him.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Really? Let’s take a look at what the New Testament actually says about religion, okay?
James 1:26] If any one thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man’s religion is vain. 27] Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
Based on the above I’d say that you are dead wrong and that God does indeed divide us by religion. Many n-Cs talk down on religion, and yet the fact is that history shows us that 2,000 years ago, there was only one Christian religion and if you read the writings of those early church fathers, who learned the faith from the apostles themselves and gave their lives for that faith, you pretty quickly see that they are Catholic in their beliefs and practices.
Examples:
What Was Authentic Early Christian Worship Really Like?
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?
The Eucharist IS Scriptural
How Is A Catholic Saved?
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Chez
Guest
Dear Lisa…
You seem like a lovely person who wants the best for everyone.
And you are absolutely correct!.. Denominations don’t matter.
However, the Catholic Church, and Her Faithful are not a denomination!
We are the One, Holy, catholic and Apostolic Faith!
There are so many things you are depriving yourself of by not coming home to His one True Church… Two of the most important and beautiful being, (and Jesus Christ could not have been more clear about it!)… The Sacrement of Reconciliation, and the Holy Eucharist!
Do yourself a favor… Read what the early Church fathers had to say about early Christianity. Read what they were doing just after the Resserection of our Lord and Savior!
You’ll be very, very surprised to learn that they were indeed Catholic… And it truly did, and does matter!
Here’s praying you make the journey!
Chez
D
deepoctave
Guest
In reply to devoutchristian (“Well you’re wrong.”), may I respectfully suggest that you express clearly and kindly what is wrong with Lisa’s statement. I agree with you, but your answer doesn’t do justice to her position. For example, so-called “denominations” matter because truth matters. Catholics don’t view their Church as one of many denominations, but as the visible Church founded by Jesus Christ for all people for all time. Lisa’s statement is true in the sense that our love for “separated brethren” can be expressed in a way that allows us to live and work together in many ways without uncharitable contention, but there must always be room for dialogue, for disagreement and, through the work of the Holy Spirit, eventual unity.
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