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Aaron_Creagh
Guest
Why do I envision, someone kicking and flailing, away at me?
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berk60
Guest
I don’t need the Bbile church to gain my salvation. I need my Bible church to edify one another because we shouldn’t forsake to coming together as brethren especially as we see the Day of Christ return approaching. When we come together to look into God’s word we also follow the command of Jesus to partake in the Lord’s table.
I have removed none of the Bible such as the Gosples, Acts or the epistales. I was saved when I personally asked Jesus to be my Savior by changing my mind towards sin and recieving the gift of grace spoken of in The Gosple of John chapter 3:16. This didn’t take place in a church but when I was by myself. Then I asked to be baptised now that I had repented.
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paul_c
Guest
Good question. Why do you? Has anyone acted uncharitably toward you?
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paul_c
Guest
If you were raised Catholic, why didn’t you just go to confession? AFter all, that’s where you are supposed to go when you repent of your sins.
And why were you baptized again? You were already a member of the church and baptism is a once in a life time sacrament. Why did you feel a need to join a “bible church” rather than stay a practicing Catholic. What does it offer that the Catholic Church does not? And have you considered what you gave up when you left the church?
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JamesCaruso
Guest
You misunderstand “born again.” It is one and the same Spirit in baptism as it is in the laying on of hands [confirmation]. The latter brings about a greater fullness of that same Spirit living in and through us. Born again applies to anyone born of the Holy Spirit in any manner whatsoever.
If the Spirit is already within you from your baptism, then the laying on of hands only serves to make fuller what is already within you.
For which cause I admonish thee, that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee, by the imposition of my hands. 2 Timothy 1:6
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berk60
Guest
The order of salvation is to repent and then be baptised This is why I was baptised again. I was baptised as an infant because my mom wanted it for me and I had no idea what was happening and didn’t even know how to say the word repent let alone understand the need to repent.
I think that you believe that by merely receiving the sacrament of baptism without any type of repentance it can save you. So logically it makes sense to baptise a baby before there is any chance of death. True salvation only comes when a person realizes that they are a sinner and comes to the cross for forgiveness by asking Jesus to forgive his sins by the His shed blood. Once this is done the Holy spirit becomes part of the person and he begins the progression of santification by God. This is being born again as Jesus told Nicodimus.
The bible church has the bible as it’s final authority because it is God’s inspired word where the Catholic church has man as it’s final authority hrough it’s traditions. Living my life for Christ according to just His word has lifted the burden of the Catholic law from me and set me free.
What have I given up by leaving the Catholic church?
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pocohombre
Guest
You had your “bible” way before 382
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pocohombre
Guest
Here we go again with either/ or,instead of both but in proper context .Does sola escriptura mean take your bible and live in a cave ? Does it mean sit in mantra position with book in front of you and do nothing else? Come on, bible alone still means you have "church’ and elders and deacons and presbyters/bishops. The context,the role,the priority the authority even definition of them all is where we differ.
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Love4All
Guest
That is categorically false. There is no salvation outside the Church — Catholic Doctrine.
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pocohombre
Guest
So when a certain pope refused admission into a church of a certain emperor/general after a big misdeed/atrocity with his army, until he did penance/repentance was he wrong? Did the pope not know his place leaving examination/determination soley up to the emperor?
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Church_Militant
Guest
No, actually you were re-baptized because some well intentioned person with a Bible in hand misled you into believing that errant doctrine. It is neither scriptural or historically Christian and is a new wind of doctrine of modern men.
See my blog article, The Case For Infant Baptism
That’s silly, and not at all what the Catholic faith teaches. The New Testament has accounts of whole households being baptized (see my article above) and early church writings tell us that infants were baptized even then. (See Polycarp in my article above).
Did Jewish infants males repent and profess faith when they were circumcised? Obviously not, and that was done by command of God Himself. Then whose profession was efficacious there? The boy’s parents, obviously.
Again, a modern new wind of doctrines of men and an error, both Biblically and historically. I suggest that you “Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” as per 2nd Timothy 2:15 and get into the following Bible study articles from my blog which cover all this.
- Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?
- Baptism~ Necessary or Not?
- How Is A Catholic Saved?
- What Was Authentic Early Christian Worship Really Like?
Again, evidence of your deception by new winds of doctrines of modern men. You cannot provide a single passage of scripture, (even using a Catholic Bible with all 73 books in it) where the Bible lays claim to that kind of authority. It is an innovation that isn’t even 500 years old and a doctrine of men, not found in the Word of God. Again, this has been examined and refuted many times here at CAF and ever since the error was first put forth by men. I have an article on my blog that gets into this and may help you see it for the error that it is. Does the Bible teach that everything that we believe and practice has to be found in its pages? If you search “Sola Scriptura” here in the apologetics forum, you’ll soon find many of these discussions and see that none of the n-Cs who believe that doctrine have been able to support it from the Word of God, which means that it violates its own premise by not being found in the Bible and therefore, even by its own errant standards, cannot be a correct Christian doctrine.
Oh? Lets take a look at that.
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Church_Militant
Guest
You can also take a moment to check out My Testimony and see that I was once deceived like you, but God in His mercy corrected me and called me back to His most holy faith.
Thank you Jesus!:extrahappy::dancing::clapping:
Thank you Jesus!:extrahappy::dancing::clapping:
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Church_Militant
Guest
Not true. It was under discernment prior to that time, though there were a number of suggested canons that were what we Catholics have today. The issue was settled in 382 and was revisited by the Council of Trent in response to the Reformer’s tinkering with the Word of God. Even the real 1611 editions of the KJB have more that the 66 book Protestant canon, much to the chagrin of the modern 1611 KJ onlyists today.
Exactly correct!! And is evident in the New Testament in the following passages mentioned by my friend John Martignoni.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
Ideally, the Apostles would have gone out, preached the Word, and everyone who heard would have received the truth,:imsorry: been baptized,:getholy: and received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. :extrahappy: They, in turn, would have joined the Apostles to the extent they could, and everyone they told about Jesus would in turn be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit.:dancing:
:extrahappy: Before long, the entire world would have become Catholic. :grouphug: Hmmm! .
I wonder if Jesus would come back early?
:extrahappy: Before long, the entire world would have become Catholic. :grouphug: Hmmm! . I wonder if Jesus would come back early?
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paul_c
Guest
I think you misunderstand the truth about salvation. God grants his grace to those who are in his Church through the sacraments. When your mom had you baptized, she was promising to raise you in the faith. You became a member of the church and you entered the state of grace, whether you understood that or not. That grace allowed you to do good works if you chose to. If you chose to sin instead, you fell from grace. To re-enter the state of grace, you must partake of sacramental confession. You must die in the state of grace to enter heaven. Jesus initiated the sacraments precisely because they are physical ways for physical beings to gain the grace you need to be saved and STAY saved. Are you familiar with this very basic church teaching? If not, don’t feel bad. There are legions of poorly catechized catholics out there. But that doesn’t make the truths about salvation any less real. And here at Catholic Answers, you can learn all that you need to know about salvation.
Baptism does save you by putting you in the state of grace. But you are right in that if you sin, you fall from grace and that if you don’t reconcile with God, you will be condemned.
Yes, it does
This is certainly a good thing to do. But Jesus set up his Apostles to forgive sins in his name and as the church grew, they in turn ordained priests to carry out the sacrament of reconciliation in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Why wouldn’t you follow the process Jesus set out for the forgiveness of sins, instead of assuming that you can do it your own way?
The process of sanctification begins at baptism, when you get the graces necessary to move forward in Christ. The Holy spirit is with you from that point forward. But you need to cooperate with God’s grace to be sanctified. What you are seeing as the coming of the holy spirit is actually instead your increased openess to HIm.
Go back and read John 3 again… You will see that you are born again through water and spirit (baptism)
Let me ask you this. Who tells you the true meaning fo what you read in the Bible? As anyone who converses with people of different faiths clearly recognizes, there are many different ways to interpret the same bible passages. So how do you know what the bible really means when it says, for instance, that faith without works is dead (James 2:24)? Who is your final authority? Is it you? your pastor at the Bible Church? If you are honest with yourself, you will realize that you must rely on some human authority, since you weren’t there when the bible was written. And that’s where Catholic Tradition and the magesterium (the pope and the bishops) come in. They pass on to us what they have heard from their predecessors, with the knowledge going all the way back to the authors of the new testament books.
And now, at last, we come to the truth. You find the truth burdensome and want to make your own truths. Consider this, you are fooling no one but yourself when you try to bend the truth to your desires instead of bending your desires to the truth
The full truth about salvation and the grace giving sacraments.
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peace2u2
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peace2u2
Guest
The reason we baptize infants is because we are all born without God’s grace in our souls do to original sin. Thru Baptism, our souls are opened to allow God’s love in!
Does Jesus say to baptize? Yes of course He does. Does He say how old you should be? No, he does not.
When you are baptized as an infant, your mother and father and godparents, have you baptized “in proxy” - -
If you grew up after that infant baptism learning nothing about Jesus, then you should first blame your mother and father for not teaching you more!
What have you given up by leaving the Catholic Church…The Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.
John 6:52-56
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
olgcparish.net/education/true_magnificence.html
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peace2u2
Guest
Everytime you open your Bible and read it, you submit to the authority of the Catholic Church…even if you are not aware of it.
Berk60 - where do you think the Bible came from?
catholicbible101.com/theholybible.htm
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peace2u2
Guest
I don’t know this burden you talk of. Please enlighten me.
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peace2u2
Guest
The CCC state:
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God… And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”320 (831)
837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”321 (771, 815, 882)
838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”322 Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”324 (818, 1271, 1399)
The Church and non-Christians
839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”325 (856, 63, 147)
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 “the first to hear the Word of God.”327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”;328 “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”329
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus. (674, 597)
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”330
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: (360)
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city… 331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”332 (28, 856)
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: (29)
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334 (30, 953, 1219)
To Read More From the CCC:
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm#
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God… And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”320 (831)
837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”321 (771, 815, 882)
838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”322 Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”324 (818, 1271, 1399)
The Church and non-Christians
839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”325 (856, 63, 147)
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 “the first to hear the Word of God.”327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”;328 “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”329
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus. (674, 597)
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”330
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: (360)
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city… 331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”332 (28, 856)
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: (29)
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334 (30, 953, 1219)
To Read More From the CCC:
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm#
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