Does God want everyone to be Catholic?

[pocohombre]

As you can see from the poll results, not everyone here represents the official Catholic POV. I’ve been a Catholic all my life and what I have been taught is that any person, whether Christian or not, can go to heaven, but it’s up to God to judge.

I also know that just having the fullness of truth, which the Catholic Church has, does not guarantee that every Catholic will go to heaven. Up until the time of Jesus, the Jews were entrusted with the revealed truth of God, the Old Testament. Not many of us believe that every Jew went to heaven. Why, they even rejected Jesus, the Messiah!

So no Catholic should get all puffed up about having the fullness of truth. If we follow the pattern of the Old Testament church we are in deep trouble.

But stepping back for a moment… if I had been born in the BC era, I would want to have been born into a Hebrew family, because there I would have the inspired word of God at my disposal and the true worship of the One God, not the false idols of all the surrounding nations. Just so, being born in the 21st century I would want to be born into a Catholic family, to have the fullness of the truth and the worship of the Triune God, with all the graces that flow through the Church to its members through the sacraments. Having the fullness of truth doesn’t save anyone, but if we take it to heart and practice it, we have a better chance of gaining heaven than if we do not have it IMHO, and having the special graces that come to members is incalculable.

So I’m not going to tell anyone that if they don’t become Catholic they are going to hell. I only want them to know that being a member IMO will give them their best chance of pleasing God and ultimately spending eternity with Him. If I am unable to convince them, I can say that I at least tried. I truly wish that all people were Catholic.

Peace.

Read you clearly, even feel what you are saying but…as we have discussed before, there is a tone that suggests a lack of assurance in salvation with words such as “best chance”, “better chance”. Seeing how so much is riding on your shoulders I can see why one might be more concerned with what church they are “banking” on. I am heart broken at your paradigm, for it is not necessary, not up to “best chance”. Calvary should be much more the “only” chance. Blessings.

 

[paul_c]

Read you clearly, even feel what you are saying but…as we have discussed before, there is a tone that suggests a lack of assurance in salvation with words such as “best chance”, “better chance”. Seeing how so much is riding on your shoulders I can see why one might be more concerned with what church they are “banking” on. I am heart broken at your paradigm, for it is not necessary, not up to “best chance”. Calvary should be much more the “only” chance. Blessings.

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There is a good article on heaven by Msgr Charles Pope this week. blog.adw.org/2013/05/learning-to-love-heaven-its-not-as-automatic-as-you-think/

He notes that Satan was in heaven and didn;t like it and that Adam was in paradise and still wasn’t satisfied (quoting GK Chesterton). His point is that Heaven is what God wants it to be, not what we might think of it to be. Its a place of love, where people who love are satisfied because they can be of service to others, but where people who are selfish are dissatisfied because its about God and not about them.

I humbly suggest that you read Msgr Popes article and then take time to contemplate what it means. I think you will find that the guarantee of heaven that you require of God puts you at odds with what heaven really is, a place of liturgy and service to God. And this guarantee doesn’t prepare you for heaven, where you put others before self (which is love).

 

[witwoa]

ask your self was jesus a catholic or a israelite
was paul and catholic or a israelite
when was the first time the word christian was used in the bible

After having gone to Tarsus to get the new convert Saul, only recently a persecutor of the church himself, Barnabas returns with Saul and they work with the church at Antioch for a year. What an encouragement he must have been to Saul, for most believers were still afraid of him. Later, Barnabas and Saul (soon to be known as Paul) will travel through Asia Minor together establishing many churches in many different cities. Antioch would become their “headquarters” from where they would launch their missions and return after completing them.

It was during this year in which Barnabas and Saul are at Antioch that the disciples were first called “Christians”. The disciples were followers of Christ. A disciple of Jesus is happy to wear His name. Later, Peter tells disciples to “in that name (that is, in the name “Christian” -J.Q.) let him glorify God.” (1 Peter 4:16). Though the enemies of Christ may speak the name with a sneer, disciples wear it joyfully. The Lord has been sanctified in our hearts (1 Peter 3:15).

 

[Arrowsmith1994]

By Divine Revelation (Sacred Scripture), I assume you mean the New Testament. There are many parts of the Old Testament that I find very disturbing to say the least.

This is a good point - but then we should merely say that this what scripture says about the topic, rather than claim that it is what God currently wants.

However, I am still afraid that you are tying/limiting God’s will to the words in the Bible - that there can never be an expansion or a new thought in God’s mind (saying maybe Catholic and Anglicans are preferable but others are not - remember there was no Anglican church at the time of the New Testament).

So God is now a prisoner of whatever He once said or we believe he said ?

I recognize that many people are unfamilar with the Old Testament and find the stories disturbing. I myself was disturbed by some of the graphic portrayals in the Bible miniseries. What must be understood is that God does not change; he does not come up with new ideas. This would be more like the nature of the Mormon god. But, God does change the way he teaches mankind as mankind matures. A father parents a 2 year old differently than a 22 year old. The writings of Dr. Tim Gray are useful to understand this more.

Your second point, you have just made the argument for the Magesterium of the Catholic Church. Jesus tells the apostles that He will send the Holy Spirit so the Church can know all Truth. The gift or charism of the H.S. allows the Magesterium to teach what God wants for us; this includes the interpretation of Sacred Scripture and how it should guide our lives.

God is not a prisoner, he is a loving Father who wants to teach us what is best for us. Magesterium being a derivative of the Latin word for teacher.

 

[pocohombre]

.

There is a good article on heaven by Msgr Charles Pope this week. blog.adw.org/2013/05/learning-to-love-heaven-its-not-as-automatic-as-you-think/

He notes that Satan was in heaven and didn;t like it and that Adam was in paradise and still wasn’t satisfied (quoting GK Chesterton). His point is that Heaven is what God wants it to be, not what we might think of it to be. Its a place of love, where people who love are satisfied because they can be of service to others, but where people who are selfish are dissatisfied because its about God and not about them.

I humbly suggest that you read Msgr Popes article and then take time to contemplate what it means. I think you will find that the guarantee of heaven that you require of God puts you at odds with what heaven really is, a place of liturgy and service to God. And this guarantee doesn’t prepare you for heaven, where you put others before self (which is love).

Ok I’ll take look.But if this assurance is something i am “requiring” of God as you say ,could it be that you also a requiring something of Him ,even if it is something you require from yourself?

 

[Brendan_64]

Unfortunately, many Catholics and many Protestant’s make personal choices to think as they want to think and believe as they want to believe in order to fit Jesus in their own personal agenda.

Very true. The fallacy of choosing beliefs that are ‘right for them’. A bit like going to the supermarket and choosing what you would like to eat for dinner.

 

[pocohombre]

I am new to this forum, so I want to be careful not to step on any toes, but here his my opinion:

Isn’t it rather presumptuous of any of us to claim to know what God wants? Even if the Pope said he knew what God wants, I would wonder how he could really be sure (leaving aside obvious questions like - God does not want you to steal).

Even quoting scripture does seem the right thing to do - it is like tying God down to something somebody wrote centuries ago. Who are we to say that once scriptures are written that God does not have the right to change his mind?

Also the behavior and state of the Catholic Church has not been exactly exemplary all throughout the last 2000 years - so does not mean there was a time God did want everyone Catholic? Did he change his mind back when the Church improved? Who are we to say?

The Buddha refused to talk about God, because he said we should not speculate about that which we do not understand (some have accused him of not believing in God because of this - but I don’t think that was true).

Also I am just a little confused - is this question about God the Father or God the Son? I usually assume when people say God, they mean the Father, but some of the posters have talked about what Jesus wants (maybe they both want exactly the same thing, so it does not matter?).

Hello open minded,welcome.may you one day be very narrow and closed minded in your illumination.I will relay to you a story where a young man came to a wise old seer and said teach me the truth.The old man took him to a river and they waded in to the deep .The old man then pushed the young man’s head under water and held it there, for a long time. Finally the young man began to thrash and force his way up and out as he gasped for air. The old man asked the younger what he was thinking about when under the water. He replied, "One thing and one thing only- air! ".“Good”, said the old man, “When you want truth the same way you wanted air, you shall be at it’s door”.

 

[peace2u2]

Hello Openminded77,

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forum.

I see you are a trial member and a Hindu.

I have to admit, I know absolutely nothing about Hinduism. But it sounds quite different from Catholicism.

Yes, how bout a new thread, “Ask a Hindu?”, as this one is getting redundate. This link to article, Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work: Louis Bouyer on the Reformation by Mark Brumley can probably close it out:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0097.html

 

[openmind77]

Hello open minded,welcome.may you one day be very narrow and closed minded in your illumination.I will relay to you a story where a young man came to a wise old seer and said teach me the truth.The old man took him to a river and they waded in to the deep .The old man then pushed the young man’s head under water and held it there, for a long time. Finally the young man began to thrash and force his way up and out as he gasped for air. The old man asked the younger what he was thinking about when under the water. He replied, "One thing and one thing only- air! ".“Good”, said the old man, “When you want truth the same way you wanted air, you shall be at it’s door”.

Good story! Wouldn’t reading the Bible be sufficient to find the truth? In any case, I am truly impressed that so many here are sure they know what God wants. And that God will never change his mind about it, no matter what happens.

 

[steve_b]

They already know, they are the ones who wish to convert.

I didn’t know your age when I was responding to your posts. You write above your age level. Fully Meant as a complement

 

[Brendan_64]

I am truly impressed that so many here are sure they know what God wants. And that God will never change his mind about it, no matter what happens.

And why would God change his mind? If he needed to change his mind then he would not be omnipotent and omniscient. God would not need to change his mind, to do so would mean that he had made an error in the first place, or that he did not foresee the circumstances leading to him having to change his mind. God is perfect, he does not make mistakes, nor is he fickle.

 

[openmind77]

And why would God change his mind? If he needed to change his mind then he would not be omnipotent and omniscient. God would not need to change his mind, to do so would mean that he had made an error in the first place, or that he did not foresee the circumstances leading to him having to change his mind. God is perfect, he does not make mistakes, nor is he fickle.

I would assume that if God had good opinion of you today, his opinion of you next week would depend on what you did within the time period (assuming there is such a thing as human free will).

You are saying that the actions of an individual don’t affect God’s opinion/judgment of him perhaps ? (Of course, what goes for the individual, would apply to an institution like the church also.)

 

[casadepaz]

A church is not required to be saved. A repentive and contrite heart is. Nothing is preventing me from converting to Catholism. I was brought up in the Catholic faith by my mom and when I read the Bible and gave my life to Jesus I left the Catholic church and now belong to a Bible church. I felt God leading me in this dicision as I prayed about it. I believe that Christ plus anything else for my salvation equals nothing. So I accept Christ alone for my salvation.

Many people like you left the Catholic Church or one reason or another. But I just wanted to share with you my personal experience. I attended a Bible class in a Presbyterian Church years ago. It was very enlightening. I then attended a neighborhood non-denominational Bible class. It ripped the Catholic Church more than it taught scripture. I eventually started a Catholic Bible class for my Catholic brethren–it was very beneficial and non-Catholics started coming too. Over the years I have attended different non-Catholic scripture classes. Now I attend a Bible class in my Catholic Church, of which we have several non-Catholics coming also. We are studying the Jeff Cavins series. I cannot tell you how rewarding and informative these classes are! I have learned more from his series then I ever learned in all the years past. You may want to see if you can find a church that uses The Jeff Cavins series, because your will be amazed! You can also buy the various bible studies and study on your own. I think you will get a brighter and eye opening revelation about the Catholic Church when you get into the series. BTW Jeff Cavins had left the church, was a pastor for over 15 years, then returned to the Catholic Church. AWESOME!

 

[paul_c]

I would assume that if God had good opinion of you today, his opinion of you next week would depend on what you did within the time period (assuming there is such a thing as human free will).

You are saying that the actions of an individual don’t affect God’s opinion/judgment of him perhaps ? (Of course, what goes for the individual, would apply to an institution like the church also.)

you seem to be having a hard time grasping the concept that God exists outside of time. Let me try to help. Image you are a character in a book and that God is the author of that book. For you, each event is new and you don’t know what is going to happen next. But God already wrote the book and he knows everything you will become so he is not surprised by what you do and it doesn’t need to change his mind. From His perspective, everything in the book is already done. He’s not living in the book, afterall. He’s outside of it and he can look at any page any time he wants.

 

[openmind77]

you seem to be having a hard time grasping the concept that God exists outside of time. Let me try to help. Image you are a character in a book and that God is the author of that book. For you, each event is new and you don’t know what is going to happen next. But God already wrote the book and he knows everything you will become so he is not surprised by what you do and it doesn’t need to change his mind. From His perspective, everything in the book is already done. He’s not living in the book, afterall. He’s outside of it and he can look at any page any time he wants.

If God already knows what you will be doing all your life from the time of your birth, then there is no free will. You might as well not go though it because you can not change what he knows, so you have no real choice.

Getting back to topic of this thread - I would suggest that during the time of the Inquisition (several hundred years I believe), God did not want everyone to be Catholic - what do you think?

 

[paul_c]

If God already knows what you will be doing all your life from the time of your birth, then there is no free will. You might as well not go though it because you can not change what he knows, so you have no real choice.

No. We still have free will, even if God knows what we will choose. We still have to choose.

Getting back to topic of this thread - I would suggest that during the time of the Inquisition (several hundred years I believe), God did not want everyone to be Catholic - what do you think?

Obviously you don’t know much about the inquisition. This is a red herring. stick to the topic.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Read you clearly, even feel what you are saying but…as we have discussed before, there is a tone that suggests a lack of assurance in salvation with words such as “best chance”, “better chance”. Seeing how so much is riding on your shoulders I can see why one might be more concerned with what church they are “banking” on. I am heart broken at your paradigm, for it is not necessary, not up to “best chance”. Calvary should be much more the “only” chance. Blessings.

I can only give you Paul’s words below. If you’re looking for absolute assurance, I can assure you there is none. You can be born again, and indeed you must, but you can still fail. Let me change my wording: your greatest assurance is to join Christ’s Church and to live its teachings to the fullest.

But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway. 1 Cor 9:27

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. Phil 2:12

 

[adfraggs]

My outstanding contention is that the church appears to assert that it provides the ONLY valid path to God and salvation. Catholicism has somewhat taken ownership of communion with God, almost as if it can’t happen without the church being involved. I can simply never agree with that. I understand that the chosen scriptures and views of the church support that view but then of course that would be the case. Asking a Catholic if there is some other way to salvation then becomes a fairly pointless question. Of course they will say that there isn’t. Jesus himself is quoted and interpreted as saying that only through HIM can that salvation be reached.

The repeated demonstration of human beings finding a true and remarkable relationship with God completely outside the teachings of Jesus seems lost on the Catholic church and I don’t understand why. I suspect it’s because the idea of knowing you are on the one and only true path to salvation is a remarkably comforting idea, one that few people would ever really want to let go of. But it does happen, and I think it happens just as often outside of the Catholic church as it does within it. That seems demonstrably true and my view is that it’s only through ignorance of the teachings of other religions and spiritual teachers that one could continue to deny it. I suppose I would not really expect the Catholic church to let go of such concepts that were established from the beginning, but it’s still surprising to find.

 

[StrawberryJam]

And the answer is…?

God has wants?

 

[Brendan_64]

I would assume that if God had good opinion of you today, his opinion of you next week would depend on what you did within the time period (assuming there is such a thing as human free will).

You are saying that the actions of an individual don’t affect God’s opinion/judgment of him perhaps ? (Of course, what goes for the individual, would apply to an institution like the church also.)

You miss the point entirely. God knows everything, everything that is, everything that has been, and everything that will be. He is omniscient. He is also omnipresent, he is not bound by a framework of time and space (forces that He created). He is omnipotent, he is not bound by anything. How can it be otherwise?

We have free will, we will be judged on our actions. We do not know what our actions will be or how we will be judged, but God does. God does not change his opinion. God is not a mortal human operating within time and space, and having all the uncertainties that go with our position.

You seem to view God as some big, powerful human (who somehow happens to be immortal) looking down on us and wondering what we are going to do next, and making up his mind (and changing it) based on what we each do. He is not like this, He knows all things. He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.