Does God want everyone to be Catholic?

[Church_Militant]

Amen.that is right. Narrow has always been the gate, but it has always been this personal relationship with Him that is key.The OT gate was thru Abraham and the nation of Israel.This is a new dispensation where He is pouring out His spirit over all the Earth, not confined to a “nation” (denomination). To say it is one church over another is quite old testament, going against proper “remembrance”/eucharist. Their is a new covenant after all. The church is much more universal than Catholicism.

Unfortunately your remarks display the usual mental i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/flip_emoticon_jfo.gif of errant (and wishful) thinking that fuels your rejection of the Catholic faith.

The issue here is the fullness of truth. Do you have it? Do you even claim to? No? Then where do your doctrines come from? Not the New Testament, for we have already seen the differences between what is actually in the Word of God versus things like Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura and OSAS/Eternal Security, not to mention the errant and deficient salvation gospel that is being preached by so many of you.

If you do not have the fullness of truth, then whose sheep are you? Remember Luke 13:24
24] "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Emphasis mine)

 

[brb3]

Sure it does, and no faithful Catholic will say anything but “amen” and "alleluia " because we believe every bit of what those verses say. Your personal interpretation however is a different matter…

The New Testament also says.
“16] And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.” John 10:16

If there’s only supposed to be a single flock, then where do all these new n-C communities come from?

Matthew 7:13
13] "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

Luke 13:24
24] "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Matthew 7:14
14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

All these new and different gates…where do they lead? Is their teaching true and faithful to that of the New Testament? Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”? I think not. Do you even claim to possess the fullness of the truth? No. Then despite your use of the Bible as a source that does not mean that it is the truth that sets us free. You are not sure…and you cannot be sure and worse yet you reject those teachings that are in the New Testament and affirmed by the earliest church fathers in their documents. Then who are you? A hireling perhaps? A thief or robber possibly?

The fact is that most n-Cs have never examined what they are taught outside their own modern little Sola Scriptura context to see if it bears any resemblance to the entire New Testament and the authentic historical and verifiable writings of the early church. This is terribly illogical, since Sola Scriptura itself is not supported by the Word of God itself, and so violates its own errant doctrinal premise. That being the case, it is not possible for it to be a true and correct Christian doctrine. It then follows logically that one should reject it and those who preach it as not offering the fullness of truth and look to the original, New Testament, full Gospel, Christianity that has existed for 2,000 years. There is only one. The Catholic Church.

Well said ! Yes, we have the Protestant Churches … but, they left the CC, and are struggling, deprived in most part of the Sacraments … that both save and help Christians persevere.

Let us all pray & work for the reunification of all the wayward ‘flocks’ … back into the original Apostolic Church, the Universal, ONE Church of Christ. That One Church Militant … that ‘Church Militant’ recognizes and supports 100 % …

 

[brb3]

A.) Narrow has always been the gate, but it has always been this personal relationship with Him that is key.

B.) He is pouring out His spirit over all the Earth, not confined to a “nation” (denomination).

C.) To say it is one church over another is quite old testament, going against proper “remembrance”/eucharist. Their is a new covenant after all. The church is much more universal than Catholicism.

A — Personal relationship is the WALK, the Experience … not the ‘entry’ Gate. Personal Relationship is the Discipleship phase of Christian living … not our ‘inception’, our Acceptance, our Adoption, our first Regeneration Rebirth.

B.) Yes … this is Christianity 101 … its Great Commission of Christ to the first 12, and to their disciples, on on down the chain to us.

C.) No. … The Church is NT, started upon Peter, the Papa of the 12, and his chair continues down thru the ages to today, he being Christ’s designee — to lead and speak with ONE voice for the Universal Flock.
Yes, their are many churches, but only ONE CHURCH of the Apostles, the CC. No one wishes to doubt or contend with you over your ‘rebirth’ in a Protestant church perhaps. But, we do wish to contend with you over thinking the Protestant church(es) are IDEAL for you. You are not receiving the full Sacraments in them. You lack the Eucharist, and Confession … you lack the fuller teaching on the faith the CC can provide you. You are handicapped in your ability to thrive and persevere … in those ecclesial flocks. You are not able to receive the FULL compliment of ongoing graces right now, where you reside … apart from the CC. Remember the Church has two major functions/purposes. To bring mankind to the Lord … and to enable that reborn man/woman to continue on in the faith, persevere, til their last day. Make sure you are not being ‘short-changed’ on the second phase of Christian living.

 

[paul_c]

Amen.that is right. Narrow has always been the gate, but it has always been this personal relationship with Him that is key.The OT gate was thru Abraham and the nation of Israel.This is a new dispensation where He is pouring out His spirit over all the Earth, not confined to a “nation” (denomination). To say it is one church over another is quite old testament, going against proper “remembrance”/eucharist. Their is a new covenant after all. The church is much more universal than Catholicism.

Poco,
Jesus established his Church and then men broke away from it for a variety of reasons and started their own churches. How can they claim to be still part of the Church they left in protest? Now I know that every Protestant must claim that they haven’t left the church, but that the church varied from the truth and they are simply trying to regain it. But if this was indeed the case, then you should be able to point to the event where the Catholic Church apostatized and show the specific error where It deviated from previously held doctrine and became a false church. Can you? And if not, doesn’t that tell you that the Catholic Church is indeed the one true faith. Convince us one way of the other.

 

[KingJohn]

I do not think the Catholic Church is the only way to salvation, I think Jesus is. I find it a bit rediculous you guys threaten people with Hell (not all of you, just some) so they can convert. If anything, threatening me with hell makes me less willing to convert. I respect the Catholic tenants and the faith, but there was a thread on this very issue:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=579164

Question: Do Non-catholics go to heaven?

44.51% said “Only God knows”

42.86% said Yes.

6.59% said no.

6.04% said only non-catholic Christians.

 

[openmind77]

I am new to this forum, so I want to be careful not to step on any toes, but here his my opinion:

Isn’t it rather presumptuous of any of us to claim to know what God wants? Even if the Pope said he knew what God wants, I would wonder how he could really be sure (leaving aside obvious questions like - God does not want you to steal).

Even quoting scripture does seem the right thing to do - it is like tying God down to something somebody wrote centuries ago. Who are we to say that once scriptures are written that God does not have the right to change his mind?

Also the behavior and state of the Catholic Church has not been exactly exemplary all throughout the last 2000 years - so does not mean there was a time God did want everyone Catholic? Did he change his mind back when the Church improved? Who are we to say?

The Buddha refused to talk about God, because he said we should not speculate about that which we do not understand (some have accused him of not believing in God because of this - but I don’t think that was true).

Also I am just a little confused - is this question about God the Father or God the Son? I usually assume when people say God, they mean the Father, but some of the posters have talked about what Jesus wants (maybe they both want exactly the same thing, so it does not matter?).

 

[steve_b]

:thumbsup:Exactly.

There’s some very good information on this up in the Ask an Apologist forum.

• What is invincible ignorance?

Just a thought

The CCC uses that term but doesn’t define invincible ignorance. From the dictionary.

invincible ignorance: (emphasis mine)

• knowledge a person is incapable of acquiring or correcting, after making an effort.
• ignorance beyond the individual’s control and for which, therefore, he is not responsible before God.

So if one intentionally rejects knowledge that is fully accessable, on something they should know, (matters of faith for example) and don’t make an effort to know what they should know, this nullifies any claim of Invincible Ignorance for them. In that case the CCC describes it as [1791 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1791)

 

[cheezey]

You will only go to Hell if you know that the Catholic Church is Christ’s true Church on Earth and refuse to join. If you do not know it is Christ’s true Church necessary for salvation, then you are in a state of ignorance and you cannot be damned for something you do not know. …
So non-Catholic Christians can indeed achieve salvation. Some Catholics might like to insist otherwise, but by doing so their views are not the views of the Catholic Church.

The Church also holds that non-Christians can also achieve salvation.

CCC847 : **“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.” **

The smart alecky answer is: “Only if they choose to.” j/k

In all seriousness, not joining the Catholic Church can only be held against a person who believes that God wants them to join it, but I imagine the penalty depends on the circumstances.

Or, Know that He is the Truth and Way and still say no to Him…my prayers go with you.
Ignorance, incapability of understanding, shouldn’t condemn…

The church really doesn’'t have laws per se. What it does offer is advice based on the apostolic truths. It doesn’t condemn you to hell, it tells you what Jesus taught about salvation.

“The only things needed are those things which love makes necessary.”

To admonish the sinner.
To instruct the ignorant.
To counsel the doubtful.
To comfort the sorrowful.
To bear wrongs patiently.
To forgive all injuries.
To pray for the living and the dead.

What the church is saying is that it was commissioned by Jesus to preach the truths of salvation to all the nations and to administer His sacraments which impart the grace to do His will. (Matthew 28: 18-20)

If further points out that if you believe that the only way to heaven is by following the Church and yet you chose not to, then you are implicitly saying that heaven doesn’t matter to you and that you are shunning God.

again, a willful refusal vs. genuine ignorance and/or incapability of understanding.

It is the Church’s responsibility to teach the truth. That truth includes the fact that the sacraments are efficacious and important for salvation. To teach anything other than this would be a failure to carry out it divine mission and a disservice to the faithful.

And remember, this is offered as advice. The Church can not force you to join. It has no armies. it also knows and teaches that Jesus will judge the living and the dead on the last day so it does not judge individuals. If points out error and sin when it sees it and this is in fact, not a work of judgement but of mercy.

Well said ! Yes, we have the Protestant Churches … but, they left the CC, and are struggling, deprived in most part of the Sacraments … that both save and help Christians persevere.

Let us all pray & work for the reunification of all the wayward ‘flocks’ … back into the original Apostolic Church, the Universal, ONE Church of Christ. That One Church Militant … that ‘Church Militant’ recognizes and supports 100 % …

Just to clarify, I, as a Protestant, did not leave the CC, as I genuinely didn’t know I could join the CC. My ancestors, however…

 

[Hamlet123]

And the answer is…?

yes

 

[Arrowsmith1994]

I am new to this forum, so I want to be careful not to step on any toes, but here his my opinion:

Isn’t it rather presumptuous of any of us to claim to know what God wants? Even if the Pope said he knew what God wants, I would wonder how he could really be sure (leaving aside obvious questions like - God does not want you to steal).

Even quoting scripture does seem the right thing to do - it is like tying God down to something somebody wrote centuries ago. Who are we to say that once scriptures are written that God does not have the right to change his mind?

Also the behavior and state of the Catholic Church has not been exactly exemplary all throughout the last 2000 years - so does not mean there was a time God did want everyone Catholic? Did he change his mind back when the Church improved? Who are we to say?

The Buddha refused to talk about God, because he said we should not speculate about that which we do not understand (some have accused him of not believing in God because of this - but I don’t think that was true).

Also I am just a little confused - is this question about God the Father or God the Son? I usually assume when people say God, they mean the Father, but some of the posters have talked about what Jesus wants (maybe they both want exactly the same thing, so it does not matter?).

We know what God wants through Divine Revelation (Sacred Scripture), so seeking the mind of God begins with reading the Bible. The will of the Father and the will of the divine nature of the Son are always the same. So when we speak of what God wants we are actually speaking of the will of all three persons in the Trinity which have a unified, congruent will.

 

[openmind77]

We know what God wants through Divine Revelation (Sacred Scripture), so seeking the mind of God begins with reading the Bible. The will of the Father and the will of the divine nature of the Son are always the same. So when we speak of what God wants we are actually speaking of the will of all three persons in the Trinity which have a unified, congruent will.

By Divine Revelation (Sacred Scripture), I assume you mean the New Testament. There are many parts of the Old Testament that I find very disturbing to say the least.

This is a good point - but then we should merely say that this what scripture says about the topic, rather than claim that it is what God currently wants.

However, I am still afraid that you are tying/limiting God’s will to the words in the Bible - that there can never be an expansion or a new thought in God’s mind (saying maybe Catholic and Anglicans are preferable but others are not - remember there was no Anglican church at the time of the New Testament).

So God is now a prisoner of whatever He once said or we believe he said ?

 

[steve_b]

I do not think the Catholic Church is the only way to salvation, I think Jesus is.

Jesus and His Church are one.
k:

I find it a bit rediculous you guys threaten people with Hell (not all of you, just some) so they can convert. If anything, threatening me with hell makes me less willing to convert.

Hell wouldn’t even be discussed if it wasn’t already used in scripture for certain behaviors.

For example

Rom 16:17* I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, * and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded. 19* For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; 20* then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet

**Gal 5:*19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, * drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Some comments about these 2 selections

• the word for dissension above is the same Greek word in both writing to the Church of Rome, and to the Galatians. Depending on the translation one uses, that Greek word might get translated as dissension, or sedition, or division. Either way, it’s the same Greek word. διχοστασία dichostasia = dissension / sedition / division ]
• Since Paul writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and the HS reminds and teaches them only what Jesus taught them. [John 16:12-15 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 16) which means the teaching and the consequences came from.Jesus
• if it is so important not to divide from the Church, it goes without saying that it is just as important to be in the Church to begin with.
• Gal 5: tells us the consequences If one continues in division, they will not go to heaven when they die. i.e. they go to hell. Therefore, Jesus ties salvation to being in His Church and remaining in it. Do you see that?
• It’s not a threat. If we want salvation, we need to do it His way not our way

 

[KingJohn]

Jesus and His Church are one.

Hell wouldn’t even be discussed if it wasn’t already used in scripture for certain behaviors.

For example

Rom 16:17* I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, * and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded. 19* For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; 20* then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet

**Gal 5:*19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, * drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Some comments about these 2 selections

• the word for dissension above is the same Greek word in both writing to the Church of Rome, and to the Galatians. Depending on the translation one uses, that Greek word might get translated as dissension, or sedition, or division. Either way, it’s the same Greek word. διχοστασία dichostasia = dissension / sedition / division ]
• Since Paul writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and the HS reminds and teaches them only what Jesus taught them. [John 16:12-15 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 16) which means the teaching and the consequences came from.Jesus
• if it is so important not to divide from the Church, it goes without saying that it is just as important to be in the Church to begin with.
• Gal 5: tells us the consequences If one continues in division, they will not go to heaven when they die. i.e. they go to hell. Therefore, Jesus ties salvation to being in His Church and remaining in it. Do you see that?
• It’s not a threat. If we want salvation, we need to do it His way not our way

So, in your opinion and appearently in the Church’s opinion, if I don’t convert I’m condemed. Right?

 

[pocohombre]

Unfortunately your remarks display the usual mental i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/flip_emoticon_jfo.gif of errant (and wishful) thinking that fuels your rejection of the Catholic faith.

The issue here is the fullness of truth. Do you have it? Do you even claim to? No? Then where do your doctrines come from? Not the New Testament, for we have already seen the differences between what is actually in the Word of God versus things like Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura and OSAS/Eternal Security, not to mention the errant and deficient salvation gospel that is being preached by so many of you.

If you do not have the fullness of truth, then whose sheep are you? Remember Luke 13:24
24] "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Emphasis mine)

Already went over how we have the full gospel.

 

[steve_b]

So, in your opinion and appearently in the Church’s opinion, if I don’t convert I’m condemed. Right?

I don’t judge you. And I sure don’t know your level of knowledge in this matter

So let’s look at this from what we’ve seen in these scripture passages. iow, put yourself into the 1st century ~ 50 a.d. or so. Paul is talking to the Church. You’re not in the Church but you’re searching. You happen to be with a friend, and you overhear the conversation Paul is having with the Church.

• Paul lists for them a bunch of sins, one of them being division from the Church. And you hear that these sins, and division in particular from the Church, will effect one’s salvation. i.e. one goes to hell. You’re thinking, you want salvation, and if one takes Paul seriously, they need to be in the Church Paul is talking about, and also remain in it…or serious consequences occur for the soul…right?
• If you go up to Paul and ask him your question, what do you think his answer would be to you?

 

[Brendan_64]

So, in your opinion and appearently in the Church’s opinion, if I don’t convert I’m condemed. Right?

Why are you banging on about this? The answer has been given by several posters. If you clearly know that the Catholic Church is Christ’s true Church on Earth and still refuse to join then you are in effect choosing to turn your back on Christ. You are choosing to separate yourself from Christ. You are choosing to reject salvation. By doing this the Church is not condemning you, you are condemning yourself.

People who are ignorant of the fact and do not realise that the Catholic Church is Christ’s true Church on Earth are not necessarily condemned because mortal sin can only be committed with full knowledge. But to know and to still reject Christ is a mortal sin and mortal sin is a complete separation from God.

Salvation is not fuzzy-wuzzy concept where all are saved regardless. If you choose to knowingly turn your back on Christ you have chosen to turn your back on salvation. Why would you knowingly choose to do this? Why would anyone knowingly choose to do this?

 

[chero23]

I do not think the Catholic Church is the only way to salvation, I think Jesus is. I find it a bit rediculous you guys threaten people with Hell (not all of you, just some) so they can convert. If anything, threatening me with hell makes me less willing to convert. I respect the Catholic tenants and the faith, but there was a thread on this very issue:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=579164

Question: Do Non-catholics go to heaven?

44.51% said “Only God knows”

42.86% said Yes.

6.59% said no.

6.04% said only non-catholic Christians.

KingJohn, don’t let what others whether their Catholics, Baptists, Evangelicals, Atheists, or so on to deter you . I see that your trying to convert to Catholicism. I read one of your posts, were you posted if Im not Catholic I wont go to heaven. I read that and i was like man that’s not as Catholics we should be saying, preaching and teaching. In all honestly We can win any debate with any denomination bc at the end of the day we put the Bible together, we have writtings from the Early Church Fathers that all say and point their fingers to the Catholic Church as the one and only.

Keep praying King John, I will put you in my prayers, but keep praying, study, study, study. Above all open up your heart to God and let the Holy Spirit guide you.

 

[Lormar]

And the answer is…?

Yes.

 

[KingJohn]

I don’t judge you. And I sure don’t know your level of knowledge in this matter

So let’s look at this from what we’ve seen in these scripture passages. iow, put yourself into the 1st century ~ 50 a.d. or so. Paul is talking to the Church. You’re not in the Church but you’re searching. You happen to be with a friend, and you overhear the conversation Paul is having with the Church.

• Paul lists for them a bunch of sins, one of them being division from the Church. And you hear that these sins, and division in particular from the Church, will effect one’s salvation. i.e. one goes to hell. You’re thinking, you want salvation, and if one takes Paul seriously, they need to be in the Church Paul is talking about, and also remain in it…or serious consequences occur for the soul…right?
• If you go up to Paul and ask him your question, what do you think his answer would be to you?

I’m positive Paul wouldn’t sure say “Yes, you’re going to hell if you don’t convert”.

I am also sure, according to what you and others are saying, he wouldn’t say no. I simply don’t know, if I go to hell for not converting in time then I’m sad God looked past my deeds, even my attempts to live a Holy life for him. And I don’t want to go to hell, either. I am doing my best, and that is all I can do.

God bless you.

 

[steve_b]

I’m positive Paul wouldn’t say “Yes, you’re going to hell if you don’t convert”.

I am also sure, according to what you and others are saying, he wouldn’t say no. I simply don’t know,

I think you DO know, you’re response suggests you’re probably laboring under the weight of some bad former formation. Is that it?
k:

if I go to hell for not converting in time then I’m sad God looked past my deeds, even my attempts to live a Holy life for him. And I don’t want to go to hell, either. I am doing my best, and that is all I can do.

God bless you.

What do you mean by “converting in time”?