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paul_c
Guest
That’s actually a pretty good question. Depends on the situation.
If you know that joining the Catholic Church is required for salvation and you choose not to join, then you will be condemned. If you are truly ignorant of this fact, you MIGHT be saved provided you lived a life of love.
Here’s the documentation from the Catholic Catechism:
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Code:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
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paul_c
Guest
What do you mean by structure? The church was hierarchical from the beginning. And if you read the first 15 chapters of Acts, you see Peter carrying out the same responsibilities as the current popes. With Peter replacing Judas in Acts 1, interpreting scripture adn defining sacramental needs (Acts 2), excommunicating heretics (Simon Magnus), Speaking for the Apostles (acts 3-4), Disciplining the faithful (Annas and Sapphira),defining doctrine (Christians didn’t need to be circumcised or follow the Jewish ceremonial laws - Acts 15) and defining scripture (2Peter 3), where he declares Paul’s writing scripture.
Now to be sure, more support structure needs to be in place to govern a church of 1.2 Billion Catholics in the modern age than it did to govern a church of 3000 shortly after Pentecost. The fact is, Church governance must change with the times, while church doctrine is eternal and unchanging.
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peace2u2
Guest
Yes and is prefigured in the Old Testament throughout Exodus and Leviticus. There is an article somewhere about the hierarchy in the Old prefigures the hierarchy in the New. Looking for it…
I think its mentioned in this video clip:
youtube.com/watch?v=P1FaPtqC7Og
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gvtgtkH
Guest
Ý kiến của bạn hay quá, rất động đáo.
Mình cảm ơn bạn nhiều, chia sẻ của bạn rất hữu ích.
Hãy chia sẽ những ý kiến hay hơn nữa nhé.
Cảm ơn và trân trọng.
Your comments are so good and special.
Thank you much, your share is useful.
Let’s share more ideas like this.
Thanks and best regards.
Mình cảm ơn bạn nhiều, chia sẻ của bạn rất hữu ích.
Hãy chia sẽ những ý kiến hay hơn nữa nhé.
Cảm ơn và trân trọng.
Your comments are so good and special.
Thank you much, your share is useful.
Let’s share more ideas like this.
Thanks and best regards.
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berk60
Guest
Nowhere in God’s word does it say that you must be a member of the Catholic church to be saved. I’m pretty sure my Bible reads,
Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Acts 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
It’s not what church you belong to, it’s to whom does your heart belong.
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Prieldedi
Guest
Did you miss this in the article?
"Roman Catholics (242 denominations)
The largest is by far the Latin-rite (commonly called “Roman Catholics” by non-Catholic Christians) with 976 million members of the 994 million total members (or 98% of the total, year 1995 numbers). However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations."
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chero23
Guest
The position has always been there I think what happened in that time period was they were not only known as bishop of Rome, but were also now being called papa, father.
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KingJohn
Guest
So I am going to hell? I’m looking to become Catholic, but I may not join, or maybe I will. It all depends. If I don’t, I’m condemed? Even if I’m a good person? Repent everyday? Pray everyday? Do my best to live a holy life?
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Brendan_64
Guest
You will only go to Hell if you know that the Catholic Church is Christ’s true Church on Earth and refuse to join. If you do not know it is Christ’s true Church necessary for salvation, then you are in a state of ignorance and you cannot be damned for something you do not know. Come and join us and partake in the wonders that are our Sacraments.
The statement ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation’ has been re-explained at Vatican II
"All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.
Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.
The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation."
So non-Catholic Christians can indeed achieve salvation. Some Catholics might like to insist otherwise, but by doing so their views are not the views of the Catholic Church.
The Church also holds that non-Christians can also achieve salvation.
CCC847 : “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
The views of Feeneyites who insist on a very narrow interpretation of " Outside the Church, no salvation" are quite simply not in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church.
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KingJohn
Guest
And I may or may not join. If I don’t join, I’m going to burn in hell? I would have to say I disagree with the Church laws’, for the first time in my entire life.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
The smart alecky answer is: “Only if they choose to.” j/k
In all seriousness, not joining the Catholic Church can only be held against a person who believes that God wants them to join it, but I imagine the penalty depends on the circumstances.
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paul_c
Guest
The church really doesn’'t have laws per se. What it does offer is advice based on the apostolic truths. It doesn’t condemn you to hell, it tells you what Jesus taught about salvation.
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AloysiusBologna
Guest
“The only things needed are those things which love makes necessary.”
To admonish the sinner.
To instruct the ignorant.
To counsel the doubtful.
To comfort the sorrowful.
To bear wrongs patiently.
To forgive all injuries.
To pray for the living and the dead.
To admonish the sinner.
To instruct the ignorant.
To counsel the doubtful.
To comfort the sorrowful.
To bear wrongs patiently.
To forgive all injuries.
To pray for the living and the dead.
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adfraggs
Guest
I’d say it’s a fairly fundamental tenet of most religions that only through a prescribed set of beliefs and practices can you reach salvation. That’s kind of the point of an organised religion - it provides you with a set of beliefs and practices. To therefore ask a member of any religion if their prescribed beliefs and practices are the only valid set out there, or if they are the more effective set … It’s a redundant question because you surely know what answer you are going to get. Why would anyone be a part of a church and not think it’s the most effective way to gain salvation? Ignorance is a potential answer, but if you put that aside and ask any thoughtful, suitably conscious and aware member of church why they are in the church then they’ll always tell you basically the same answer - because they believe it is their path to salvation. It can’t really be any other way.
So people join a church because they think it’s the path to salvation. God surely wants you to find a path to salvation. I think the crux of the question is more likely to be: is there only one path to salvation? Christianity in particular seems to hold quite fast to the view that yes, there is only one, and it is “through Jesus”. That’s based on scripture, but again you have to realise that the scripture that Christians refer to is the scripture that they have specifically chosen for their church. They’re not going to quote you scripture that contradicts the basic views they’re taken on for themselves as a path to salvation. It’s never going to be the case that scripture doesn’t back up the views of the church because the church is based on the selected scripture. So what has happened is that the Catholic church has been based on a set of scriptures that does seem to strongly indicate that there is only one valid path to salvation.
So yes, most Catholics are going to tell you that there is only path to salvation and by default that means God want’s you to be a Catholic. The problem I see is not with the question, it’s who you are asking. Asking Catholics is going to give you the Catholic answer. Catholics are, after all, ultimately just human beings. We all make our decisions for our own reasons and we are all imperfect in that process. Some humans may seem like they are more knowledgeable, happier, more at peace, stronger in their faith … but all of those things are due to their own personal circumstances and it hasn’t really got that much to do with anyone else. So you can ask the person on one particular path how they feel they are doing and, if you see lots of people on that path who tell you that they feel happy, at peace, close to God and on a sure path to salvation then you might very well want to join them. But to ask them which path is best … you’ll always get the same answer. Whatever path they are on, they think it’s the best one, or else they’re insane.
So it may seem as if you’d like to get an answer from another human being, some kind of reassurance or support, and that’s fair enough. Other human beings are here, we look to them for reassurance and support, that’s very natural. But I don’t see that any answer is ultimately going to be that valuable. You’re directing the question to the wrong person. The only one who can actually answer that question is God. That’s really what’s challenging about this whole journey, that you really have to go it alone, something that Jesus himself knew all too well. What other people tell you might be complete nonsense and you might ultimately find yourself going completely against the grain on your own path to salvation. The only person who can decide that is you, and what I think everyone here would agree on is that you need God’s help no matter what. You and God get together, develop a relationship, work out what’s not working in your life and then see about finding the internal strength and devotion required to making the changes you need to make. That might just end up meaning you joining the Catholic church, but asking someone else if that’s the only right thing to do is not really going to help.
So people join a church because they think it’s the path to salvation. God surely wants you to find a path to salvation. I think the crux of the question is more likely to be: is there only one path to salvation? Christianity in particular seems to hold quite fast to the view that yes, there is only one, and it is “through Jesus”. That’s based on scripture, but again you have to realise that the scripture that Christians refer to is the scripture that they have specifically chosen for their church. They’re not going to quote you scripture that contradicts the basic views they’re taken on for themselves as a path to salvation. It’s never going to be the case that scripture doesn’t back up the views of the church because the church is based on the selected scripture. So what has happened is that the Catholic church has been based on a set of scriptures that does seem to strongly indicate that there is only one valid path to salvation.
So yes, most Catholics are going to tell you that there is only path to salvation and by default that means God want’s you to be a Catholic. The problem I see is not with the question, it’s who you are asking. Asking Catholics is going to give you the Catholic answer. Catholics are, after all, ultimately just human beings. We all make our decisions for our own reasons and we are all imperfect in that process. Some humans may seem like they are more knowledgeable, happier, more at peace, stronger in their faith … but all of those things are due to their own personal circumstances and it hasn’t really got that much to do with anyone else. So you can ask the person on one particular path how they feel they are doing and, if you see lots of people on that path who tell you that they feel happy, at peace, close to God and on a sure path to salvation then you might very well want to join them. But to ask them which path is best … you’ll always get the same answer. Whatever path they are on, they think it’s the best one, or else they’re insane.
So it may seem as if you’d like to get an answer from another human being, some kind of reassurance or support, and that’s fair enough. Other human beings are here, we look to them for reassurance and support, that’s very natural. But I don’t see that any answer is ultimately going to be that valuable. You’re directing the question to the wrong person. The only one who can actually answer that question is God. That’s really what’s challenging about this whole journey, that you really have to go it alone, something that Jesus himself knew all too well. What other people tell you might be complete nonsense and you might ultimately find yourself going completely against the grain on your own path to salvation. The only person who can decide that is you, and what I think everyone here would agree on is that you need God’s help no matter what. You and God get together, develop a relationship, work out what’s not working in your life and then see about finding the internal strength and devotion required to making the changes you need to make. That might just end up meaning you joining the Catholic church, but asking someone else if that’s the only right thing to do is not really going to help.
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casadepaz
Guest
Denominations do matter in that many denominations do not follow the true foundation of Christianity. Some denominations are “watered down,” or preach “feel good” Christianity.
The Universal (Catholic) Church was founded on the foundation and corner stone of Jesus Christ. It continued to grow through the authourity of Peter in union with the ministry of the apostles and disciples. The Catholic faith IS the true authority and protector of Christ’s teachings. Athough the Catholic Church has gone through periods of corruption (popes, scandal, etc), it’s human errors have not changed or manipulated Christ’s teachings or the churches doctrines in over 2,000 years. The divine presence of Jesus in the Eucharist at every Mass, makes the Catholic faith very special. The admiration of Mother Mary adds to the special graces we receive from God. The Catholic faith stands firm on biblical teaching and has not changed or manipulated Christ’s teachings in over 2,000 years.
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paul_c
Guest
Do you really believe what you are saying here? That you have to go it alone? Nothing in life works that way. We need help and insight from others in virtually everything. Together, we are stronger, smarter and more experienced than alone. Don’t you go to experts for advice on most things? When you are sick, don’t you go to a doctor? If your house is on fire, don’t you call the fire department? If you have a sore tooth, don’t you visit a dentist? So too with religion. Setting aside a minute that the Church had direct access to Jesus and his teachings through the apostles, The Catholic church has had literally millions of theologians pondering the questions of life and salvation for the last 2000 years. It has credible answers to virtually any question you might answer. Don’t dismiss that as unhelpful. There are many people further along the spiritual journey than we are (the canonized saints chief among them). It only makes sense to tap into what they have learned. The fool learns only from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others.
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paul_c
Guest
What the church is saying is that it was commissioned by Jesus to preach the truths of salvation to all the nations and to administer His sacraments which impart the grace to do His will. (Matthew 28: 18-20)
If further points out that if you believe that the only way to heaven is by following the Church and yet you chose not to, then you are implicitly saying that heaven doesn’t matter to you and that you are shunning God.
It is the Church’s responsibility to teach the truth. That truth includes the fact that the sacraments are efficacious and important for salvation. To teach anything other than this would be a failure to carry out it divine mission and a disservice to the faithful.
And remember, this is offered as advice. The Church can not force you to join. It has no armies. it also knows and teaches that Jesus will judge the living and the dead on the last day so it does not judge individuals. If points out error and sin when it sees it and this is in fact, not a work of judgement but of mercy.
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Church_Militant
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Sure it does, and no faithful Catholic will say anything but “amen” and "alleluia " because we believe every bit of what those verses say. Your personal interpretation however is a different matter…
The New Testament also says.
“16] And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.” John 10:16
If there’s only supposed to be a single flock, then where do all these new n-C communities come from?
Matthew 7:13
13] "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Luke 13:24
24] "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Matthew 7:14
14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
All these new and different gates…where do they lead? Is their teaching true and faithful to that of the New Testament? Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”? I think not. Do you even claim to possess the fullness of the truth? No. Then despite your use of the Bible as a source that does not mean that it is the truth that sets us free. You are not sure…and you cannot be sure and worse yet you reject those teachings that are in the New Testament and affirmed by the earliest church fathers in their documents. Then who are you? A hireling perhaps? A thief or robber possibly?
The fact is that most n-Cs have never examined what they are taught outside their own modern little Sola Scriptura context to see if it bears any resemblance to the entire New Testament and the authentic historical and verifiable writings of the early church. This is terribly illogical, since Sola Scriptura itself is not supported by the Word of God itself, and so violates its own errant doctrinal premise. That being the case, it is not possible for it to be a true and correct Christian doctrine. It then follows logically that one should reject it and those who preach it as not offering the fullness of truth and look to the original, New Testament, full Gospel, Christianity that has existed for 2,000 years. There is only one. The Catholic Church.
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pocohombre
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Amen.that is right. Narrow has always been the gate, but it has always been this personal relationship with Him that is key.The OT gate was thru Abraham and the nation of Israel.This is a new dispensation where He is pouring out His spirit over all the Earth, not confined to a “nation” (denomination). To say it is one church over another is quite old testament, going against proper “remembrance”/eucharist. Their is a new covenant after all. The church is much more universal than Catholicism.
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