Does God want everyone to be Catholic?

[guanophore]

I totally agree with you that once we have Jesus as our Lord we should be involved in good words of helping others where ever we can as stated in Ephesians 2:10 **"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." **

These good works are not in order to maintain or earn our salvation but a change from the old man to the new.

I think you are confused, berk.

Did you somehow get the idea that Catholics believe we “earn salvation” through good works?

And what you say about “maintain” salvation is exactly what the change from the old man to the new DOES! Peter explains this:

2 Peter 1:4-11
5 For this very reason, **you must make every effort to support your faith with goodness, **and goodness with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with endurance, and endurance with godliness, 7 and godliness with mutual affection, and mutual affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and are increasing among you, they keep you from being ineffective and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For anyone who lacks these things is short-sighted and blind, and is forgetful of the cleansing of past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more eager to confirm your call and election, for if you do this, you will never stumble. 11 For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you.

Good works “support your faith”, in other words, maintain salvation. If these qualities of character are growing in us, they make us effective and fruitful for Christ. If we are not maintaining our salvation by grace, through faith, then we stumble, and fall away from the faith.

Good works confirm our call and election. Good works are not the basis of our salvation, but they are intricately entwined with it, which is why it is considered a heresy to say “faith alone, grace alone, etc”. Saving faith is always accompanied by good works, and is never “alone”. The grace by which we are saved produces the good works in us through faith. Never alone.

We all sin but we are being sanctified by the God of peace to be conformed into the image of Christ. This will not totally take place while still in this fallen nature and that’s why we have Jesus as the one to whom we confess to if we should fall.

This is a misunderstanding of the nature of saving grace. Jesus has freed us from sin, and we are no longer slaves to it. We can choose not to sin, and by His grace, avoid sin. there is no reason we need to continue to fall into sin. Having a “fallen nature” does not mean that sin is inevitable.

Sin is not a natural part of human nature.

You also seem to be under a misunderstanding that Catholics do not confess to Jesus if we should fall. You seem to have been given a great deal of misinformation about the Catholic faith.

  **"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned , we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10**

The method that Jesus arranged for us to confess our sins and be forgiven is through the sacrament of reconciliation, where the priest acts in the person of Christ.

ems that the only difference we have is where our relationship lies.

No, berk60. Your ideas about the Catholic faith are VERY different from what Catholics believe.

Is it with the Church or just between oneself and God?

The Jesus taught to us by the Apostles is not a disembodied person. He is Head of His One Body, the Church. We cannot be in right relationship with the Head unless we are properly joined to the Body.

 

[guanophore]

I personally have chosen a relationship just between myself and Gos by accepting the gift that He has offered through Jesus.

Everyone was created with free will, and it is certainly your divine prerogative to subscribe to a truncated gospel that departs from what the Apostles believed and taught. If you wish to shortchange yourself, you certainly have that right.

Oddly, you don’t come across as the kind of person who would be willing to settle for a small crumb when there is a banquet available.

Now I live not for myself but for my Lord and follow where He leads me in good works and sanctification through the Helper, the Holy Spirit. Is this wrong because I don't follow the Catholic Church concept of baptism, communion, penance?

It is not ever “wrong” to follow Christ. You stand in the tradition of Apollos, who had a deficient understanding of the Gospel.

The answer from the Catholic point of view would be yes it is wrong because without taking part of these there is no salvation.

God can save whoever He wants, however He likes. He has provided His One Body, the Church to be the instrument through which we are saved. It seems that you prefer to create your own version of the gospel, rather than to accept what Jesus gave to the Apostles. To me, it seems very eternally risky to spurn that which God has created and given as gift, but its up to you.

 Just by that answer if that is what you hold, it says that salvation is based on Jesus and man.

No, berk60. You have reached a false conclusion because you started from a false premise.

This is in error because God is the only one who can accomplish our salvation and there is nothing we can do in sacraments to add to or insure what God has already done on the cross.

You have a misunderstanding of sacraments.

This is not easy believe-ism but giving God all the glory and then living a life dedicated to Him following the convictions of the Holy Spirit to avoid sin and love others.

Clearly you are very committed to the truncated gospel that you have embraced. I dare say that you do more with less than most Catholics, who have the fullness of faith. Perhaps God has led you here to CAF so that you can find the Truth about the many errors you have embraced because your heart is eager to please Him.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Alright, let’s return to the topic. Does God want everyone to be Catholic?

I don’t know that God speaks in such terms as “Catholic”. But I do know that He left us with a Church two thousand years ago… And “universal” seems obvious to me!

But the plain truth is, humans can be very stubborn, hard hearted and weak!.. And His Church is not very accommodating to people who insist on staying in that spiritually ill place!

Oh, I’m not saying that there are not plenty of Catholics who are in that state… And for a while there, Protestantism was creeping its way into Christ’s one true Church. Unfortunately, it left us with a whole lot of “cafeteria Catholics” and a few malformed Priests and Bishops!

But as Jesus Christ Himself promised… The gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. And I believe that we are finally waking up from that nightmare!

So, as some Catholics who profess to love Jesus, grow tired going to Confession because they are unwilling to let go of certain sins. They’ll head over to a man made church that tells them… Once saved, always saved, and then they’ll go on, making a career of bashing the Catholic Church to ease their guilty conscience.

And as some Protestants grow a bit wiser, and realize how ridiculous once saved, always saved truly is… They will start to read the Bible without their Protestant blinders on, and they will eventually find their way home to the one true Church Jesus Christ left for them all those years ago!

So you think it’s 6 of 1 and a half dozen of the other? Actually, I put my faith in Jesus’ prayer for unity. As for why God wants us to be Catholic, one good reason might be so that more people might partake of his Body and Blood in the Holy Eucharist benefiting from its transformative effect. I love that prayer in the Novus Ordo: By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

I totally agree with you that once we have Jesus as our Lord we should be involved in good works.
These good works are not in order to maintain or earn our salvation but a change from the old man to the new.

Yet the Apostle tells us that those who sin do not know the Lord, and are liars. Perhaps there is a way to be both a sinner that separates himself every now and again by his own foolish actions, reunites himself to Jesus Christ, and is gradually purified of his wickedness? I assure you that there is a way, and that is the Sacraments and the way of the Cross (pursuit of holiness).

We all sin but we are being sanctified by the God of peace to be conformed into the image of Christ. This will not totally take place while still in this fallen nature and that’s why we have Jesus as the one to whom we confess to if we should fall.

**"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned , we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10**

You will find no argument that we are all sinners, and that we are all being perfected by the Lord, if we allow ourselves to be. And we should indeed confess our sins to Jesus. However, when you say to Jesus, you assume it means to Him in your prayers alone. When I say it, it means to an Apostle, to whom He gave the authority to forgive sins. The Apostles also appointed men to replace them or otherwise carry on their apostolate, as seen with Timothy and Titus. These men likewise left successors. How would these men, from the Apostles to now, forgive sins if the confessor did not speak them?

It seems that the only difference we have is where our relationship lies. Is it with the Church or just between oneself and God? I personally have chosen a relationship just between myself and God by accepting the gift that He has offered through Jesus. Now I live not for myself but for my Lord and follow where He leads me in good works and sanctification through the Helper, the Holy Spirit. Is this wrong because I don’t follow the Catholic Church concept of baptism, communion, penance?

Of course it is wrong to reject the gifts given to us by Jesus through the Apostles simply because you think think the Church became corrupt or misunderstood its own doctrine at some point. If you read the fathers of the Church, you will find this is not true. They affirm the Sacraments many times over. If they apostasized, it would mean the forsaking of the Church by God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), and this is impossible, because the Church is the Body of Christ, and the Paraclete is with us.

The answer from the Catholic point of view would be yes it is wrong because without taking part of these there is no salvation. Just by that answer if that is what you hold, it says that salvation is based on Jesus and man. This is in error because God is the only one who can accomplish our salvation and there is nothing we can do in sacraments to add to or insure what God has already done on the cross.

My friend, it is not wrong only because it limits salvation to extraordinary means of grace. It is wrong because you think Jesus did not give men a hand in their own salvation, as though Jesus did not leave mere men to lead the flock when He went to His throne in heaven. The apostles disprove this. He told Peter to tend His sheep. He told the Apostles to forgive sins. They told others to do the same. Jesus works through them, within the Church. He is doing everything, but He has indeed left men to attend to His work, to be His representation.

Jesus has indeed already done His work on the Cross. But, have you ever considered, that the Passion and Death of Our Lord was something that transcended time? It had to be, if by it all generations were granted the chance of accepting salvation, past and present. In fact, the Eucharist is of special significance here, because it takes us back to Calvary with Him as He suffered, and with Him in His glory. It unites us to Him, giving forth tremendous grace. There is a reason that people have died defending the Host. There is a reason the early Church wouldn’t even let non-baptized members behold the consecration. There is a reason Jesus wants us to have Him in this Mystery.

This is not easy believe-ism but giving God all the glory and then living a life dedicated to Him following the convictions of the Holy Spirit to avoid sin and love others.

Yet each of our actions has a consequence. Sin hurts us. Why would we, who are in time, be unable to reject Jesus by our actions? Scripture even says that we are able to do so, when Jesus Himself separates the sheep from the goats, and, even though the goats call Him ‘Lord’, He still tells them to depart, based on their actions, or lack thereof.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

And, no matter how well-intentioned one may be, there are still actions that may cause one to reject the faith. If there is a sin or an action that can cause one to reject the faith, why would absolution through a representative of Christ be a ridiculous notion?

I read 1 Timothy the other day, and stumbled upon this:

If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

By Paul’s admission, someone can, by a sin that is not actually the sin of rejecting the faith, disown the faith and become worse than an unbeliever. We would call this ‘mortal’.

John speaks of being free from sin because of Jesus, but then says that we are all sinners, and then, right after saying we are all free from sin yet still sin, says that anyone who sins does not know the Lord, nor do they love Him. This seems contradictory, doesn’t it? So how does one avail themselves of forgiveness after committing an action like Paul speaks of?

Well, Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins, and it would make sense that one must announce their sins to the Apostles in order to have absolution, yes? The Apostles further laid hands on others and commissioned them to do the same (like Timothy and Titus). And here we have the sacrament of Penance!

You, who say that Jesus did not entrust men to lead us toward salvation, must then think Jesus, in giving the Apostles the authority to forgive sins and bind/loose, and feed His flock, must have contradicted Himself. What do you make of this?

 

[Chez]

So you think it’s 6 of 1 and a half dozen of the other? Actually, I put my faith in Jesus’ prayer for unity. As for why God wants us to be Catholic, one good reason might be so that more people might partake of his Body and Blood in the Holy Eucharist benefiting from its transformative effect. I love that prayer in the Novus Ordo: By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity.

No, it wasn’t meant to be a 6 of 1, half dozen of the other post.

I believe with all my heart that God wants all of us to be Catholic.
(Actually, it’s kind of a silly question. Why would He leave us His Church if He didn’t?)

I don’t know how Jesus could have been more clear about unity and the Holy Eucharist. But Protestants seem to read the Bible with an entirely different set of eyes than we Catholics. And for fallen away Catholics, well, you tell me, what happens to His words, “You must eat my Flesh and drink my Blood to have life”?.. They seem to disappear for a promise of “once saved, always saved”.

Maybe you misunderstood my post… Maybe it’s do to my frustration.

Sometimes I think I have more patients with non-Christian religions than Protestants. At least I can understand their ignorance. But people who call themselves “Bible Christians”! They read the Bible daily, they go to Bible study constantly… So what the heck are they reading and studying???

My only conclusion can be, it’s just too difficult to do as God asks of us for some people. Either consciously or subconsciously, they won’t, can’t or don’t want to see the Truth!

I don’t know if you saw the smarmy comment in the recent Catholic Answers quick questions…
“Doesn’t 1 Timothy 4:3 disprove the Priesthood?”
WOW! How do you come up with that from 1 Timothy???

I pray for Protestants and the unity of Christains (back to the Catholic Church) everyday.

So, fear not James!.. We’re on the same team.

P.S.- Now if I could just learn to be more PATIENT!

 

[OldProf]

No, it wasn’t meant to be a 6 of 1, half dozen of the other post.

I believe with all my heart that God wants all of us to be Catholic.
(Actually, it’s kind of a silly question. Why would He leave us His Church if He didn’t?)

I don’t know how Jesus could have been more clear about unity and the Holy Eucharist. But Protestants seem to read the Bible with an entirely different set of eyes than we Catholics. And for fallen away Catholics, well, you tell me, what happens to His words, “You must eat my Flesh and drink my Blood to have life”?.. They seem to disappear for a promise of “once saved, always saved”. … Clip

Chez, see my post 718 on this thread. That is the best answer, and it shows that God elects those who will go to heaven. I don’t see how you can get around it. John 17 also is consistent with that doctrine.

Regarding the Holy Eucharist, I have been researching that for the past month and will have a response on a different thread (Eruvande, and the Thread is “What must I do to be saved?” - I believe that is correct, but you can do a search on OldProf and find it if I’ve gotten it wrong here). The Holy Eucharist is considered “off topic” on this thread, I believe, so I recommend watching the other thread where we will discuss if the “Real Presence” is a requirement for salvation.

Regards, OldProf

 

[paul_c]

Does God want everyone to be Catholic?

The elect, chosen by God, will go to heaven. So God wants a select group only to be Catholic (Christian from my perspective). And only God knows who that is.

Alas, the Calvinist heresy of predestination, where God predestines some to go to heaven and others to go to hell, thus making man no more than a puppet and God no more than a sophisticated computer programmer. Calvin had such a negative view of God and man (total deprivation!!!) that it is hard to see how he could get anyone to follow him. And in the end, don’t you see that it is just a sophisticated lie that renders man totally unaccountable for anything in his life. Sad… And it is wrapped around the notion that it gives all glory to God, when it also gives all blame to God for creating people just to cast them into hell, no matter what they do.

Here is how we know this:

John 6:37-47. (Jesus)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

Are you picking this out of proof texts or have you read the actual bible. Because if you had read the Bible in the way it was intended, through the lens of Catholic Tradition, you would know that this is part of the bread of life discourse, where he initiates the discussion of the Eucharist. Do you know what it says? It says that if you don’t eat his body and drink his blood, you have no life within you. And those who could not belief this teaching walked away saying “this teaching is hard”. Just like today.
And that’s the rub, we have a choice on whether to be Catholic or not. Those that think its too hard will be condemned.

Ephesians 1:3-14 (Paul)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Regards, OldProf

Did you read the whole letter to the Ephesians or did you stop after chapter 1? Because if you had continued to read it, you would have found that the second half of the letter is full of admonishments to live the Christian life and warnings that those who sin will not enter the kingdom of God. Have you ever asked yourself why Jesus and the apostles spend so much time preaching about how to live a life of love if nothing a person does effects their salvation or condemnation, as Calvin would have you believe? And by the way, have you ever considered who Paul is talking about being predestined. who is the “Us”? Is it himself, the author of the letter, because you will notice that after talking about the predestined “us” for the first 12 lines, he then starts talking about YOU, presumably the holy ones in Ephesus to which he is writing. And to the YOU in verse 14, he says UNTIL we acquire the possession of the inheritance. Notice it must be acquired. and notice he spends the rest of the letter describing the good works expected of a Christian and warning about various sins. It doesn’t seem like this is an accident and it certainly doesn’t sound consistent with a theology where nothing a person does in life, good or bad, effects his salvation or condemnation.

 

[Chez]

Chez, see my post 718 on this thread. That is the best answer, and it shows that God elects those who will go to heaven. I don’t see how you can get around it. John 17 also is consistent with that doctrine.

Regarding the Holy Eucharist, I have been researching that for the past month and will have a response on a different thread (Eruvande, and the Thread is “What must I do to be saved?” - I believe that is correct, but you can do a search on OldProf and find it if I’ve gotten it wrong here). The Holy Eucharist is considered “off topic” on this thread, I believe, so I recommend watching the other thread where we will discuss if the “Real Presence” is a requirement for salvation.

Regards, OldProf

Dear OldProf,

I understand that Catholic Answers Forum has a certain decorum we should follow. I also understand that as a Catholic, I must show charity and try hard to see Christ in everyone.

However, when I saw this post written to me, my first reaction was, “this guy must be joking”!

I don’t know what I could have written in this forum to make you think I would ever be open to the ridicules notion that God “elects” people for heaven, and predamns others to hell!

This is just another case of a Protestant electing him or herself Pope, and interpreting Scripture to amuse themselves.

How you could ever come to the conclusion that Jesus was speaking of anyone other than Himself in John 17, is beyond my comprehension!

And now as luck would have it, you have been researching the Holy Eucharist for a whole month and will soon bless us Catholics with your conclusion!.. That is truly audacity!

If you are trolling to convert this Catholic, don’t waste your time… The Holy father and the Catholic Church interprets Scripture for me. Not you or anyone else!

God wants me to be Catholic. I know this because the Holy Spirit told me so. You know, the same Holy Spirit who told you that John 17 is saying, God predetermines who is going to heaven, and who is going to hell… Now what?

Why don’t you stop all this nonsense and admit to yourself that Jesus would not have left us on our own, stumbling about, creating our own little denominations when the little denomination before that didn’t fit our needs!.. Come Home! Home to the one true Church…
His Holy Catholic Church!

God Bless You and Me Both!

 

[Arrowsmith1994]

Chez, see my post 718 on this thread. That is the best answer, and it shows that God elects those who will go to heaven. I don’t see how you can get around it. John 17 also is consistent with that doctrine.

Regarding the Holy Eucharist, I have been researching that for the past month and will have a response on a different thread (Eruvande, and the Thread is “What must I do to be saved?” - I believe that is correct, but you can do a search on OldProf and find it if I’ve gotten it wrong here). The Holy Eucharist is considered “off topic” on this thread, I believe, so I recommend watching the other thread where we will discuss if the “Real Presence” is a requirement for salvation.

Regards, OldProf

Old Prof,

With all due respect, I think this is a big dodge. I don’t recall a forum moderator saying that the Eucharist is “off topic” and that we had to quit discussing it. The question is “does God want everyone to be Catholic?” It is “yes” because God wants us to follow his Son’s teachings: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” – Matthew 28:19-20.

The Eucharist is the source and summit of Catholic Christianity and it can only be received in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. So discussions on the Eucharist are central to this thread, in fact it is the most important point of this thread. In the Forums you will find hundreds of former Protestants who have become Catholic primarily because of the teachings on the Eucharist.

Now I really should not be too hard on you and I hope that others in the Forums are showing you Christian charity. I remember my time of crisis sitting in an aisle of an Evangelical book store reading John chapter 6 in a KJ Bible. I, the Bible believing Christian, was forced to confront the truth that I did not believe something that was expressly written in the Bible. The Christian tradition that I grew up with denied it, so I denied it. It was tough to admit that my faith was a tradition of men. I will say that I did not run out and join the Catholic Church the next day. But I had to admit that the Church was right on this matter. I still encourage you to watch Peter Kreeft’s conversion story which is available on YouTube and to read his book, Jesus Shock.

In Christ

 

[JamesCaruso]

No, it wasn’t meant to be a 6 of 1, half dozen of the other post.

I believe with all my heart that God wants all of us to be Catholic.
(Actually, it’s kind of a silly question. Why would He leave us His Church if He didn’t?)

I don’t know how Jesus could have been more clear about unity and the Holy Eucharist. But Protestants seem to read the Bible with an entirely different set of eyes than we Catholics. And for fallen away Catholics, well, you tell me, what happens to His words, “You must eat my Flesh and drink my Blood to have life”?.. They seem to disappear for a promise of “once saved, always saved”.

Maybe you misunderstood my post… Maybe it’s do to my frustration.

Sometimes I think I have more patients with non-Christian religions than Protestants. At least I can understand their ignorance. But people who call themselves “Bible Christians”! They read the Bible daily, they go to Bible study constantly… So what the heck are they reading and studying???

My only conclusion can be, it’s just too difficult to do as God asks of us for some people. Either consciously or subconsciously, they won’t, can’t or don’t want to see the Truth!

I don’t know if you saw the smarmy comment in the recent Catholic Answers quick questions…
“Doesn’t 1 Timothy 4:3 disprove the Priesthood?”
WOW! How do you come up with that from 1 Timothy???

I pray for Protestants and the unity of Christains (back to the Catholic Church) everyday.

So, fear not James!.. We’re on the same team.

P.S.- Now if I could just learn to be more PATIENT!

Most Protestants, like most Catholics, are born into their religion. They, like us, believe their parents, believe their Sunday school teachers, believe their church friends. Most Catholics do not challenge the tenets of the Catholic faith, they just accept them based on trust in those I mentioned above. In general, Protestants do the same.

When someone attacks a belief in the Catholic faith, most Catholics IMO parrot back the answers they have learned and memorized over the years. Most Catholics have not undertaken a scrutiny of the Catholic faith on their own, and therefore, their answers are generally not their own, but what they have been taught and oftentimes blindly accepted. We have been indoctrinated, in the good sense. So have our Protestant friends, but we might say, not entirely in the good sense.

If we don’t delve deeper into the reasoning behind our beliefs giving due recognition of what others believe to the contrary, we never become more than robots giving pat answers that seem to us on the surface to be quite reasonable, but which we have never really made our own. The same goes for Protestants. We talk “at” each other, and we talk “past” each other, and we seldom make much headway in this mode. We expect them to reexamine their faith, but we never reexamine our own.

Another factor is that we depend on our skill as debaters to win the other person over. Our arguments seem flawless to us, so why can’t the other side see? Besides the fact that they have been trained to see error in what we see as flawless, it requires the Holy Spirit to change hearts and minds. You and I are never going to do it. If the Holy Spirit is leading our discussions, and not our confidence in our own skills, then I think we have a chance to get results.

The last thing is that results don’t matter in the slightest. Like Paul said, one man sows, another man waters, but it is God that gives growth. You may never see the result of your sowing the seeds of truth, but that does not mean it had no effect. It’s our job to plant or water, God’s job to grow. If everything we plant seems to die, it is inconsequential, because we have been faithful to do what we were called to do. The burden is not on you or me-- it’s on God. He does not ask us to be successful, only to be faithful. So you shouldn’t become frustrated. Just pray that the Holy Spirit leads your discussions and then have faith that he does and that it has its effect even if unseen.

 

[Chez]

Most Protestants, like most Catholics, are born into their religion. They, like us, believe their parents, believe their Sunday school teachers, believe their church friends. Most Catholics do not challenge the tenets of the Catholic faith, they just accept them based on trust in those I mentioned above. In general, Protestants do the same.

When someone attacks a belief in the Catholic faith, most Catholics IMO parrot back the answers they have learned and memorized over the years. Most Catholics have not undertaken a scrutiny of the Catholic faith on their own, and therefore, their answers are generally not their own, but what they have been taught and oftentimes blindly accepted. We have been indoctrinated, in the good sense. So have our Protestant friends, but we might say, not entirely in the good sense.

If we don’t delve deeper into the reasoning behind our beliefs giving due recognition of what others believe to the contrary, we never become more than robots giving pat answers that seem to us on the surface to be quite reasonable, but which we have never really made our own. The same goes for Protestants. We talk “at” each other, and we talk “past” each other, and we seldom make much headway in this mode. We expect them to reexamine their faith, but we never reexamine our own.

Another factor is that we depend on our skill as debaters to win the other person over. Our arguments seem flawless to us, so why can’t the other side see? Besides the fact that they have been trained to see error in what we see as flawless, it requires the Holy Spirit to change hearts and minds. You and I are never going to do it. If the Holy Spirit is leading our discussions, and not our confidence in our own skills, then I think we have a chance to get results.

The last thing is that results don’t matter in the slightest. Like Paul said, one man sows, another man waters, but it is God that gives growth. You may never see the result of your sowing the seeds of truth, but that does not mean it had no effect. It’s our job to plant or water, God’s job to grow. If everything we plant seems to die, it is inconsequential, because we have been faithful to do what we were called to do. The burden is not on you or me-- it’s on God. He does not ask us to be successful, only to be faithful. So you shouldn’t become frustrated. Just pray that the Holy Spirit leads your discussions and then have faith that he does and that it has its effect even if unseen.

Thanks James!

I understand what you are saying… Believe me when I tell you, I know my faults, and I work on them daily.

My story is not one of growing up in the Catholic Faith. I was Baptized a Catholic, and that was the end of it. The Faith was never discussed, and the Mass was never attended. But for some strange reason, I knew with every ounce of my being, that God wanted me to be nothing other than a Catholic.

I didn’t know Catholic terminology, I didn’t know Scripture and I didn’t really know Jesus. I only knew the Catholic Church was the “ONE” He gave us.

When the Holy Spirit called me to come fully into the Faith, nothing I learned came as a surprise to me, and nothing was difficult to accept… I totally fell in love with Christ and His Bride, the Holy Catholic Church.

I don’t quote Scripture because enough if that is being done already.

I am aware of what Saint Paul said about the sowing of seeds. But sometimes those seeds need some manure thrown their way.

At times I can be a bit uncouth, and I will work on being more tactful.

I’m sure God is using all you wonderful, intelligent eloquent, and polite people as His sowers of seeds. I think… for now anyway, I am the manure.

Thanks for reminding me not to get too smelly!

You represent the Catholic Faith beautifully.
Pray that one day I am able to do the same.

God Bless.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Thanks James!

I understand what you are saying… Believe me when I tell you, I know my faults, and I work on them daily.

My story is not one of growing up in the Catholic Faith. I was Baptized a Catholic, and that was the end of it. The Faith was never discussed, and the Mass was never attended. But for some strange reason, I knew with every ounce of my being, that God wanted me to be nothing other than a Catholic.

I didn’t know Catholic terminology, I didn’t know Scripture and I didn’t really know Jesus. I only knew the Catholic Church was the “ONE” He gave us.

When the Holy Spirit called me to come fully into the Faith, nothing I learned came as a surprise to me, and nothing was difficult to accept… I totally fell in love with Christ and His Bride, the Holy Catholic Church.

I don’t quote Scripture because enough if that is being done already.

I am aware of what Saint Paul said about the sowing of seeds. But sometimes those seeds need some manure thrown their way.

At times I can be a bit uncouth, and I will work on being more tactful.

I’m sure God is using all you wonderful, intelligent eloquent, and polite people as His sowers of seeds. I think… for now anyway, I am the manure.

Thanks for reminding me not to get too smelly!

You represent the Catholic Faith beautifully.
Pray that one day I am able to do the same.

God Bless.

Manure in the fields is fine, but I wouldn’t bring it in the house.

 

[pocohombre]

Where does that verse say that good works come AFTER one is regenerated, but not before?

Also, how was it, then, that Cornelius was able to do good works when he had not yet been re-generated? It appears that your position is that when one is a member of the elect that one can do good works from the moment of one’s election, yes?

Cornelius was “in between testaments”. Do you not think OT folk could be saved, regenerated? Why did Jesus speak to Jews,still OT, about being born again, as supposed common knowledge or occurence, at least for a rabbi (think Nicodemus) ? Cornelius then was righteous, ala OT, and graciously flowed into NT blessing/dispensations upon hearing.

 

[PRmerger]

Cornelius was “in between testaments”. Do you not think OT folk could be saved, regenerated? Why did Jesus speak to Jews,still OT, about being born again, as supposed common knowledge or occurence, at least for a rabbi (think Nicodemus) ? Cornelius then was righteous, ala OT, and graciously flowed into NT blessing/dispensations upon hearing.

LOL!

I must admit that you have said something I have never heard before, after my many, many years here in dialogue with non-Catholic Christians.

This seems to be something new. Is there some other place that I could read about how people are saved/regenerated “in between testaments”?

Who first proclaimed this teaching that people were saved “in between testaments”?

 

[PRmerger]

Where does that verse say that good works come AFTER one is regenerated, but not before?

Also, poco, could you answer the above question? Or do you not agree with Old Prof that good works come after one is renegerated but not before?

 

[pocohombre]

Old Prof,

With all due respect, I think this is a big dodge. I don’t recall a forum moderator saying that the Eucharist is “off topic” and that we had to quit discussing it. The question is “does God want everyone to be Catholic?”

 

[ConstantineTG]

And the answer is…?

I’m late to this thread.

But my answer here is “no”. At least from my perspective. I was Catholic and I was led to Orthodoxy. I prayed a lot and discerned, and I felt God led me to the Orthodox Church.

Of course I expect people here to disagree with me. But I’m just sharing my own experience from my own perspective.

 

[Fairwinds]

I think He wanted me to be Anglican for a period in my life. I’m a much better Catholic for the experience.

 

[pocohombre]

LOL!

I must admit that you have said something I have never heard before, after my many, many years here in dialogue with non-Catholic Christians.

This seems to be something new. Is there some other place that I could read about how people are saved/regenerated “in between testaments”?

Who first proclaimed this teaching that people were saved “in between testaments”?

I know. I thought my thread rated at least a funny video/picture clip from you though.