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pnewton
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Friendship, perhaps?
Does Hell Exist? Pope Francis Says No (Warning: This title is misleading)
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Loud-living-dogma
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His Holiness needs to carry a tape recorder, if Scalfari won’t.
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CradleRC58
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Easter Triduum
Every year Atheists, Satanists, and the other anti Christian groups. Find a way to disrupt our focus.
And every year it works.
Remember the “chocolate Jesus” sculpture ?
Every year Atheists, Satanists, and the other anti Christian groups. Find a way to disrupt our focus.
And every year it works.
Remember the “chocolate Jesus” sculpture ?
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Luke6_37
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For me, the big question is whether Pope Francis holds to an Annihilationist view of Hell, as opposed to the view of Eternal Conscious Torment that became popular in the Middle Ages. Sounds like he is an Annihilationist to me!
The Annihilationist view is more Biblical and more consistent with the concept of a merciful God. This would only happen AFTER the Final Judgement, when the souls of those who reject Christ are utterly & eternally destroyed, while those who remain in Christ are raised from the dead into glorified spiritual bodies like Jesus, and perhaps Mary, have now.
Jesus never compares our souls to durable materials, like rocks, that can eternally exist in the midst of fire. Rather, he always compares them to organic materials that are utterly and irreversibly destroyed in the flames. The punishment is eternal, because it is final. Angels are not made of the same substance as humans, so maybe demons can endure in the flames.
As you can probably tell, I find the Annihilationist view to be superior to the ECT view, so it’s kind of exciting if Pope Francis does too.
The Annihilationist view is more Biblical and more consistent with the concept of a merciful God. This would only happen AFTER the Final Judgement, when the souls of those who reject Christ are utterly & eternally destroyed, while those who remain in Christ are raised from the dead into glorified spiritual bodies like Jesus, and perhaps Mary, have now.
Jesus never compares our souls to durable materials, like rocks, that can eternally exist in the midst of fire. Rather, he always compares them to organic materials that are utterly and irreversibly destroyed in the flames. The punishment is eternal, because it is final. Angels are not made of the same substance as humans, so maybe demons can endure in the flames.
As you can probably tell, I find the Annihilationist view to be superior to the ECT view, so it’s kind of exciting if Pope Francis does too.
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pnewton
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What sounds like it? We know zero from this article. The 94 year old reporter could be suffering from dementia for all we know.
This is Catholic doctrine:
We should not lightly assume the Pope holds a heretical belief. If Jesus lied about Hell, he could have lied about Heaven and the Resurrection. Then we, as Paul put it, are most to be pitied of all men.
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graciew
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Thank you,Mary.
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Luke6_37
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If you read it without bias, you’d see that neither Church doctrine, nor the words of Jesus, conflict with an annihilationist view of Hell - which is a real Hell. You should be careful what you label a heresy.Luke6_37:
What sounds like it? We know zero from this article. The 94 year old reporter could be suffering from dementia for all we know.
This is Catholic doctrine:
We should not lightly assume the Pope holds a heretical belief. If Jesus lied about Hell, he could have lied about Heaven and the Resurrection. Then we, as Paul put it, are most to be pitied of all men.
For example, how can a soul hold onto existence when it is eternally separated from God, who is the source of existence? Humans can’t even sustain their earthly existence without God.
The eternal fire is a metaphor for something that utterly consumes - in other places in scripture, Jesus uses the metaphor of the worm that does not die, but that completely consumes the corpses of the humans sacrificed at Gehenna. I don’t see any contradiction in this to the interpretation of eternal punishment as refering to the duration of it’s effect, rather than the duration of being punished.
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BartholomewB
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Once again the Pope’s atheist friend Eugenio Scalfari has caused a headache for the Vatican communications people. Their latest release on the subject reads as follows:
In a statement released on Mar. 29, after Scalfari’s report garnered worldwide attention, the Vatican said:
“The Holy Father Francis recently received the founder of the newspaper La Repubblica in a private meeting on the occasion of Easter, without however giving him any interviews. What is reported by the author in today’s article [in La Repubblica] is the result of his reconstruction, in which the textual words pronounced by the Pope are not quoted. No quotation of the aforementioned article must therefore be considered as a faithful transcription of the words of the Holy Father.”
https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michae...utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=sumome_share
In a statement released on Mar. 29, after Scalfari’s report garnered worldwide attention, the Vatican said:
“The Holy Father Francis recently received the founder of the newspaper La Repubblica in a private meeting on the occasion of Easter, without however giving him any interviews. What is reported by the author in today’s article [in La Repubblica] is the result of his reconstruction, in which the textual words pronounced by the Pope are not quoted. No quotation of the aforementioned article must therefore be considered as a faithful transcription of the words of the Holy Father.”
https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michae...utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=sumome_share
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Cruciferi
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Remind me again why I’m supposed to care about this?
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JimR-OCDS
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Pope Francis didn’t give an interview.
He had a private meeting with Scalfari, as he has done in the past.
Pope Francis is probably trying to help Scalfari, convert, which is why he agrees to have private talks with him.
Jim
He had a private meeting with Scalfari, as he has done in the past.
Pope Francis is probably trying to help Scalfari, convert, which is why he agrees to have private talks with him.
Jim
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guanophore
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After he did it one time, I would never see him again or have any interaction. How sad.
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Feanor2
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The Church has never stated that anyone is in Hell.
We have no way on knowing whether anyone is in Hell.
We are not obliged to believe that anyone is.
We have no way on knowing whether anyone is in Hell.
We are not obliged to believe that anyone is.
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exnihilo
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I have trouble understanding many things Pope Francis does or says, and his style isn’t always my favorite. But isn’t the Pope supposed to be like Jesus and meet with the worst sinners? Some of the reactions I have seen to this suggest that people think the Holy Father should only be around saints. We Christians should particularly remember Jesus words of Holy Week, ‘woe to you Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites’.
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billy15
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Why people believe this stuff, I’ll never know. Pope Francis has gone on record many many times warning us of the reality of Satan and his domain, hell. But everyone seems to throw that out of the window because of words inaccurately ascribed to him. Perhaps Scalfari really is the Pope’s friend, but friends don’t twist and distort the words of their friends.
I have to say though, after seeing the things that people have had to say on this all over, I haven’t come across anything more ridiculous or absurd than the claim made here that these words ascribed to the Pope make it sound like he is an annihilationist. Such a leap from falsely attributed words to Pope Francis sounding like annihilationist shows considerable bias to such a, yes, heretical view on hell and the immortality of the human soul. CCC 1035 should be clear enough on that point.
But far from coming into popularity only in the Middle Ages, the Early Church Fathers taught that the eternality of the punishments of hell is Biblical and such a concept consistent with the concept of a merciful and just God. (cf. Ps. 116:5; Ps. 145:17). An annihilationist view is indeed heretical, and to think that His Holiness holds to that anymore than to the non-existence of hell is honestly asinine. It doesn’t matter if we find the annihilation view to be “superior”; what matters is what the Church, through Scriptuure and Sacred Tradition, declares to be true. The heretical Valentinians held to this annihiliationist view of hell and were condemned (for not just this, but other Gnostic heresies) by the Church back in the middle of the 2nd century. In the early third century, St. Hippolytus teaches that “To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest… no death will deliver them from punishment…”
In his letter to Demetrian, St. Cyprian of Carthage also points out in the 3rd century that "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies.
I have to say though, after seeing the things that people have had to say on this all over, I haven’t come across anything more ridiculous or absurd than the claim made here that these words ascribed to the Pope make it sound like he is an annihilationist. Such a leap from falsely attributed words to Pope Francis sounding like annihilationist shows considerable bias to such a, yes, heretical view on hell and the immortality of the human soul. CCC 1035 should be clear enough on that point.
But far from coming into popularity only in the Middle Ages, the Early Church Fathers taught that the eternality of the punishments of hell is Biblical and such a concept consistent with the concept of a merciful and just God. (cf. Ps. 116:5; Ps. 145:17). An annihilationist view is indeed heretical, and to think that His Holiness holds to that anymore than to the non-existence of hell is honestly asinine. It doesn’t matter if we find the annihilation view to be “superior”; what matters is what the Church, through Scriptuure and Sacred Tradition, declares to be true. The heretical Valentinians held to this annihiliationist view of hell and were condemned (for not just this, but other Gnostic heresies) by the Church back in the middle of the 2nd century. In the early third century, St. Hippolytus teaches that “To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest… no death will deliver them from punishment…”
In his letter to Demetrian, St. Cyprian of Carthage also points out in the 3rd century that "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies.
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JimR-OCDS
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Not sure I understand the point you’re trying to make ?
Pope Francis is doing as Jesus did, i…e. meeting with sinners.
Jim
Pope Francis is doing as Jesus did, i…e. meeting with sinners.
Jim
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Cathoholic
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pnewton . . .
WHY are you dragging President Trump into this discussion??
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pnewton
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What is the problem of late with all the insults? I hold the position of the Church and saints and you call it bias. A metaphor still is a reflection of a reality.
But then there is the teaching of Jesus.
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
And the teaching of the Church:
Fire may be a metaphor, but eternal pretty much means forever, in whatever sense time has after death.
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petra22
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This is true what you say. However, there is a Hell that Jesus spoke of… it is a place where God is NOT…
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pnewton
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Context. “In the sense that…”
We have a case here where there is zero evidence of something being said, what reported was denied, and yet two posters here swallowed the thing hook, line, and sinker. The problem is not the Pope, (or in the sense I said, not Trump, or not election news), but sorry reporting. Trump, in case you did not know, is the president. I could have used Obama as an example, if he was still in office, or someone else if they were.
We have a case here where there is zero evidence of something being said, what reported was denied, and yet two posters here swallowed the thing hook, line, and sinker. The problem is not the Pope, (or in the sense I said, not Trump, or not election news), but sorry reporting. Trump, in case you did not know, is the president. I could have used Obama as an example, if he was still in office, or someone else if they were.
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exnihilo
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I’m saying despite my not liking some of the changes the Holy Father has made, having concern about ambiguities he promotes etc. I recognize he should be meeting with sinners.
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