Does Humanae Vitae spiritually kill most Catholic’s souls?

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shannon e:
I think you’re trying to start a fight.

I think you ought to read Puzzleannie’s post.
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Hello Shannon E,

Are you refering to me (Steven Merten)? I simply think it would be nice if some Catholics went to heaven. Many Protestants aquse the Catholic Church of having so many sins that no Catholic can get to heaven.

Though I do not believe in only “accept Jesus as your personal Saviour and you will go to heaven” I also believe in not making it so hard to go to heaven that no Catholic can make it to heaven.

There are many Catholics out there paying their tithe to feed the poor, obeying God’s commandments with all their strength, trying to do the right thing. Then I hear that possibly up to 90% of Catholics use condoms or tube tying and Church leaders have made this a condemned to hell issue. I just want to discuss how much load Church leaders should put onto Catholics backs. And if they are going to put a huge load onto Catholics backs, are they going to stand behind it and take on the responsibility of making sure they have done all that they can do to help Catholics into heaven with the load that they have placed on their backs. I do not see this as happening.

I do not believe in the Church Leader attitude of set it and forget in regard to spiritually deadly “Keys to the Kingdom” proclamations like automatic excommunication, automatic anathama and making the use of condoms mortal sin. Once Church leaders use the “Keys to the Kingdom” to initiate these spiritually deadly mine fields I believe they have a moral obligation to make sure that they have done all that they can do to make absolutly sure the flock knows of these threat to their souls. Do the Protestants know and understand how papal use of the “Keys to the Kingdom” could damn their souls to hell? Church leaders should not just set up these spiritually deadly devices and then go off to spend all their time talking about their political opinions of worldly affairs. Lets focus on getting some Catholics (and Protestants) into heaven.

NAB MAT 23:4
They bind up heavy loads, hard to carry, to lay on other men’s shoulders, while they themselves will not lift a finger to budge them.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
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turboEDvo:
If a Catholic didn’t know that birth control was a mortal sin (eg. they think it is a venial sin), then they wouldn’t be committing it with full knowledge, and it therefore wouldn’t be a mortal sin, right? Thus they could still achieve salvation, correct? For example, I always knew mastrubation was a sin, but only found out a few months ago that it was a mortal sin. So, I don’t doubt that there are some Catholics that don’t know. Yes, I think it is their responsibility to educate themselves, but…

Eamon
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If I bought a new house out in the country with well and septic, it would be my responsibility to make sure the well water was safe for my family to drink, and also the responsibility of the seller to inform me if there was any problem with the water. If the water is in fact polluted by bacteria or chemicals from some source, the seller may know about it and cover it up, or may know about it and warn me not to drink. I may ignore the warning, or I may heed the warning and fix the problem, or I may never get the message because nobody knows the well is polluted, or they are hiding the problem.

Either way, if me and my family drink the water we will be injured, perhaps fatally if the pollution is bad enough to cause disease. If the EPA comes out and determines the water is polluted, I can continue drinking the water, or find a new source for drinking water. I may believe the EPA has no authority, but whether I believe their judgement, or whether or not I have knowledge of the polluted water, I will be injured if I drink it.

If I know about the problem and drink the water and give it to my children, I am guilty of deliberately harming them and myself. If I don’t know about the problem, and drink the water and give it to my children, I have no guilt, but we still suffer damage.
 
Humanae Vitae doesn’t kill their soul. Just lets them know that’s what they are doing.
 
I don’t understand the question. How could an encyclical kill one’s soul? :confused:
 
Great answer puzzleannie!!

Most Catholics who aren’t following Humanae Vitae have not even read it! They look at the Pope/Church as ruining their fun. But I doubt this is the only church teaching they aren’t following…
 
Steven Merten:
Hello Shannon E,

Are you refering to me (Steven Merten)? I simply think it would be nice if some Catholics went to heaven. Many Protestants aquse the Catholic Church of having so many sins that no Catholic can get to heaven.

Though I do not believe in only “accept Jesus as your personal Saviour and you will go to heaven” I also believe in not making it so hard to go to heaven that no Catholic can make it to heaven.

There are many Catholics out there paying their tithe to feed the poor, obeying God’s commandments with all their strength, trying to do the right thing. Then I hear that possibly up to 90% of Catholics use condoms or tube tying and Church leaders have made this a condemned to hell issue…all that they can do to help Catholics into heaven with the load that they have placed on their backs. I do not see this as happening.

I do not believe in the Church Leader attitude of set it and forget in regard to spiritually …

NAB MAT 23:4 They bind up heavy loads, hard to carry, to lay on other men’s shoulders, while they themselves will not lift a finger to budge them.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
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Steven,

The leaders of the Church don’t condemn people to hell. The truth about sin and the truth about salvation is available for everyone to see and partake in.

You are overlooking the fact that the Church leaders also implore its members to avail themselves of daily Eucharist, and frequent reconciliation. These Sacraments allow us to receive the gift of God’s great mercy and forgiveness.

Those who know the truth and still choose to sin-- place the heavy burden on themselves-- by actively separating themselves from God and salvation. But they can always ask for and receive mercy and forgiveness. That is the truth that Jesus, his Church, and her leaders have always conveyed.

Free will is the real culprit, here. God will not impose or force his salvation upon us. We can choose to reject Him and the truth.
Our leaders would be remiss if they do not inform us of what happens if we choose to not live by that truth, or if we choose not to repent of our sins.

Peace
 
Steven Merten:
Hello Adam Costanzo,

So you are saying that using a condom, though no conception occurs, is murder? Does Pope John Paul II and Pope Paul VI state this in Humanae Vitae? Can you direct me to such a statement?

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
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Steven Merten, Way back when…some 45 years ago at a major State University I had to give a 10 min speech with the subject being one with which most of the population would disagree. My speech was about “murder” of the unborn. This was before Roe vs Wade.

About 2 minutes was spent on contraception as murder. It is simply an extension of common abortion. Since this was a Sr. level Philosophy Class (Ethics 418) I found it easy to apply Aquinas Ethicus. The class had about firty members and not one sound or protest was heard. I think I recieved an A - on it. No, I didn’t mention that I was using a Catholic background.
 
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puzzleannie:
If I bought a new house out in the country with well and septic, it would be my responsibility to make sure the well water was safe for my family to drink, and also the responsibility of the seller to inform me if there was any problem with the water. If the water is in fact polluted by bacteria or chemicals from some source, the seller may know about it and cover it up, or may know about it and warn me not to drink. I may ignore the warning, or I may heed the warning and fix the problem, or I may never get the message because nobody knows the well is polluted, or they are hiding the problem.

Either way, if me and my family drink the water we will be injured, perhaps fatally if the pollution is bad enough to cause disease. If the EPA comes out and determines the water is polluted, I can continue drinking the water, or find a new source for drinking water. I may believe the EPA has no authority, but whether I believe their judgement, or whether or not I have knowledge of the polluted water, I will be injured if I drink it.

If I know about the problem and drink the water and give it to my children, I am guilty of deliberately harming them and myself. If I don’t know about the problem, and drink the water and give it to my children, I have no guilt, but we still suffer damage.
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Wow! good post and good analogy!

It only takes a little time to look at a couple of statistics: the divorce rate among couples who contracept and the rate among couples who us NFP. Depending on the statistics, the divorce rate for the contraceptors is something between 17 and 50 times more likely.

The sad part is that for the great majority of couples, little or nothing is done to teach them all of the positive aspects of NFP until they are on the verge of marrying; and at that point they have had 5, 10, 15 or more formative years, years that have been formed by society at large rather than the Church.
 
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otm:
It might help to keep in mind the difference between something objectively sinful and subjectively sinful.

Given the poor state of catechesis, one might hesitate about expounding about all the sinners; sinnig requires knowledge, and many, if not most, don’t have that.
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Just to clarify…Whether I have knowlege or not is irrelevant to an act being a sin. That’s the objective part. If I am ignorant of the objective fact that a particular act is a sin, God will take that into account when assigning blame. However, if I am ignorant through any fault of my own, and there is no fooling God in this, then he will also take that into account.
 
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caroljm36:
I don’t understand the question. How could an encyclical kill one’s soul? :confused:
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If it is the word of Jesus then Jesus tells us that it is that word which will condemn us on judgement day.

If it is the Pope using his Christ given power of the “Keys to the Kingdom” then it is Jesus sworn oath that He will hold bound in heaven what Apostolic Successors hold bound on earth.

We have to ask ourselves, "When a priest uses the “Keys to the Kingdom” to forgive men’s sins in the confessional, is that an infallible decision from Christ that this man is truly repentant and Christ forces the priest to say you are forgiven. Or is it the priest’s best judgement that the man is repentant and Christ, obligated by His sworn oath to forgive any sin a priest calls upon Him to fogive, regardless of repentance, that is an application of the “Keys to the Kingdom.”

I am told that it is by the Power of the “Keys to the Kingdom” that Popes make binding proclamations. Is it Christ who forces the Pope to say exactly what He wills or is Christ obligated to “hold sins bound” that a Pope holds bound, regardless of what Jesus will is? Jesus did not say you Apostolic Successors will hold bound on earth what ever I hold bound in heaven. Jesus said, “I will hold bound in heaven what ever you hold bound on earth.”

I think St. Peter should step away from the Pearly gates and let a few Catholics in.

**NAB JOH 12:47 **

(Jesus is speaking.)
“If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken - it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me.”

**NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
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miguel:
Just to clarify…Whether I have knowlege or not is irrelevant to an act being a sin. That’s the objective part. If I am ignorant of the objective fact that a particular act is a sin, God will take that into account when assigning blame. However, if I am ignorant through any fault of my own, and there is no fooling God in this, then he will also take that into account.
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That is correct; the difference between vincible and invincible ignorance.

I make the point because any number of people have a tendency to say “Sinner”, when what they should say is “Sin”. There is a lot of loose talk about how many people are going to hell, or losing their souls over various serious moral issues. Most of that talk is by people whom I (and they, too) would label as conservative, and should know better. That is, they should know the difinition of sin requires knowledge as they are using it. They are the same people who (correctly) decry the lack of proper catechesis; but they never seem to draw a connection between the two statements.
 
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miguel:
Just to clarify…Whether I have knowlege or not is irrelevant to an act being a sin. That’s the objective part. If I am ignorant of the objective fact that a particular act is a sin, God will take that into account when assigning blame. However, if I am ignorant through any fault of my own, and there is no fooling God in this, then he will also take that into account.
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Exactly, some think ignorance is a sacrament. As if there is a get out of going to hell free card because we decided not to take the time and effort to properly learn the truth.

We know baseball stats back to 1950, yet we supposedly are ignorant of all the basic moral laws?? What are we doing we all out talents? There will be an accounting to give.
 
Steven Merten:
…I am told that it is by the Power of the “Keys to the Kingdom” that Popes make binding proclamations. Is it Christ who forces the Pope to say exactly what He wills or is Christ obligated to “hold sins bound” that a Pope holds bound, regardless of what Jesus will is? Jesus did not say you Apostolic Successors will hold bound on earth what ever I hold bound in heaven. Jesus said

“Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
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Sorry for butting in. I haven’t read all the posts yet. But I just want to add here that this is the source of Catholic teaching on papal infallibility. It’s important to understand that Christ doesn’t force the Pope to say anything. But he does protect the Pope from saying the wrong thing in matters of faith and morals. And this is not a huge task for the creator of the universe. This is the only way to reconcile what Jesus said to Peter. Obviously, Christ will not affirm error in heaven that is uttered on earth. God can neither deceive nor be deceived. So in keeping with his promise to Peter and his own indefectability as God, he must protect what Peter (and his successors) teach.
 
Steve,
But I, the Pope, am still going to enforce condom use as a mortal sin with the ‘Keys to the Kingdom’.
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The pope didn’t make this a sin, God did. The pope merely teaches authoritatively that truth that God has taught through natural law, and positive Divine law. You have a bizzare perspective of Church doctrines. Instead of trying to force fit these doctrines into your own flawed framework, I suggest you simply listen and believe.
 
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fix:
Exactly, some think ignorance is a sacrament. As if there is a get out of going to hell free card:rotfl: because we decided not to take the time and effort to properly learn the truth.

We know baseball stats back to 1950, yet we supposedly are ignorant of all the basic moral laws?? What are we doing we all out talents? There will be an accounting to give.
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Remember Schultz always trying to duck blame on Hogan Heroes?..“I know notheeeng.” Fortunately we have a God who can sort all that out.
 
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fix:
Exactly, some think ignorance is a sacrament. As if there is a get out of going to hell free card because we decided not to take the time and effort to properly learn the truth.

We know baseball stats back to 1950, yet we supposedly are ignorant of all the basic moral laws?? What are we doing we all out talents? There will be an accounting to give.
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I agree, but I didn’t answer the poll. It’s too black-and-white. I believe the correct answer is…“each person’s situation is different.” Everyone has to account for their own sin, ignorance, etc., but God is the final arbiter. I think this is important to keep in mind, because of the way we come to understand the Church’s teachings. Improper catechesis is a HUGE problem.

In my own case as a convert, I struggled with the ABC teaching of the Church. In RCIA, the issue was dismissed as a “matter of conscience”. I think this is the get-out-of-hell-free card a lot of Catholics use. If you get the understanding of conscience wrong, it gives you license to all sorts of sin. I even had a priest tell me “nobody confesses that anymore…don’t worry about it” in confession! I researched further, found out I was wrongly instructed, and repented, but it took a long time. If I had died before I knew the teaching I received was incorrect, would I have gone to hell due to ABC? I don’t think so.

Now, if you received proper catechesis, have a good confessor who doesn’t gloss over mortal sins and still reject the teaching without ever repenting, then I believe you are on the one way trip south.

God Bless,

Robert.
 
I guess I don’t really like the way this question is phrased. People spiritually kill themselves by not listening to the teachings of Christ. I don’t know what the big deal is anyway. My wife and I used natural family planning (NFP) and we never considered it a burden…no more of a burden than the yoke of Christ. And it worked fine but most importantly, our conscience is clear.
 
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turboEDvo:
If a Catholic didn’t know that birth control was a mortal sin (eg. they think it is a venial sin), then they wouldn’t be committing it with full knowledge, and it therefore wouldn’t be a mortal sin, right? Thus they could still achieve salvation, correct? For example, I always knew mastrubation was a sin, but only found out a few months ago that it was a mortal sin. So, I don’t doubt that there are some Catholics that don’t know. Yes, I think it is their responsibility to educate themselves, but…

Eamon
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The clergy have remained silent for many years and privately counseled couples that it may be OK - does this reflect their own pastoral concerns and that if they keep us ignorant it lessens our sin? A conspiracy of sorts?
 
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rlg94086:
I agree, but I didn’t answer the poll. It’s too black-and-white. I believe the correct answer is…“each person’s situation is different.” Everyone has to account for their own sin, ignorance, etc., but God is the final arbiter. I think this is important to keep in mind, because of the way we come to understand the Church’s teachings. Improper catechesis is a HUGE problem.

In my own case as a convert, I struggled with the ABC teaching of the Church. In RCIA, the issue was dismissed as a “matter of conscience”. I think this is the get-out-of-hell-free card a lot of Catholics use. If you get the understanding of conscience wrong, it gives you license to all sorts of sin. I even had a priest tell me “nobody confesses that anymore…don’t worry about it” in confession! I researched further, found out I was wrongly instructed, and repented, but it took a long time. If I had died before I knew the teaching I received was incorrect, would I have gone to hell due to ABC? I don’t think so.

Now, if you received proper catechesis, have a good confessor who doesn’t gloss over mortal sins and still reject the teaching without ever repenting, then I believe you are on the one way trip south.

God Bless,

Robert.
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I see your point and there is merit to it. I guess my point is that given we live in a very sophisticated society with many educated people, one is hard pressed to claim they are invincibly ignorant.

Using your example, I would think the entire country knows the Catholic Church teaches contraception is a sin, they may not know why, but they know the Church forbids it. That is full knowledge. Now, if a cleric, or nun, tells soneone that the Church teaching is the exact opposite I would think that person has an obligation to seek out the correct answer. We can’'t always say it was bad catechesis as if we have no furher obligation to clarify the contradiction.

In the end, God will read our hearts. I just want to clarify we use our God given talents in many secular ways, yet do the minimum to learn the faith and then declare we are without sin when we have done very little to learn the truth. What is more important than learning about eternal salvation?

BTW, the CCC says Catholics are under a serious obligation to form their consciences correctly, I thnk #s 1740 and 1741. Bad catechesis may limit one’s culpability, but it can’t always completely obviate it given one’s access to so much info these days.
 
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