Does Intelligent DEsign Belittle God?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Charlemagne_II
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ambrose
*
You have also completely missed my point, and jumped to wrong conclusions. **This sort of debate requires a very refined and sensitive understanding ***of precisely what people are saying and not saying.

Instead of smarmy* ad hominems*, why not just stick to the argument?

Where has science proved abiogenesis by chance? You are aware, of course, that for science to say anything it has to have proof. So where is the proof that abiogenesis happened by chance, when the mathematical likelihood is so remote as to be impossible?

Where’s the beef?
You don’t take criticism well do you? (uh oh, another big ad hominem accusation on the way… :rolleyes: You have no idea what I was talking about, your answers only prove that beyond any doubt. I have no wish to address your current questions, as they have nothing to do with this thread, or my post. 🤷
 
Please keep the discussion civil everyone. Discusssion can get heated, but let’s agree to not be disagreeable. Okay? Thank you all.
 
Amb*rose

You don’t take criticism well do you? *

I see you don’t want to answer the question. Fine.
 
The question is whether Intelligent Design belittles God? How can it? If composers can glory God in their music, architects in their cathedrals, poets in their poems, philosophers in their books … why is science to be left out by saying that the notion of Intelligent Design, one that even Einstein could derive from his study of the universe, somehow belittles God?

The Catholic evolutionists here seem to be unwilling to show precisely where and on what grounds this so-called belittling is done. They make the charge, but they never back it up with good hard science or philosophy. I am puzzled as to why so many Catholic intellectuals are making common cause with Dawkins-type atheists.

The usual comment, and it’s been heard in the last few posts is … “you really don’t know what you’re talking about.” Or, “You won’t win anyone over with ID.” Is that an argument worthy of a Catholic intellectual?
 
In short, ID does not belittle God, who cannot be belittled. We belittle our understanding of ourselves and God by believing such things as ID.
What? And your understanding of God is so complete that it does not belittle God? Tell me how that works, please.
 
The Jesuit and myself are not saying that at all. We are saying that it is just not likely (with the state of Science and Intelligent Design as it exists in the 21st century.) IOW, it is still very possible, just as the Church teaches.
You say it is “very possible” but “not likely”. In either case, you’d have to engage the theory to determine how possible or how unlikely it is. Somehow, you’ve built some kind of measurement for that.
However, it is not a convincing argument by any means, or else there would be no Atheists or Agnostics in the world. Do you see the difference?
Perhaps you should start by counting the number of people who do find it convincing and then measure that against whatever counter-argument you’re proposing (Fr. Coyne’'s version of evolution with an “ignorant god”?). It might help to point me to the books that support your brand of theistic evolution. For myself, I can point you to perhaps 40 books on Intelligent Design that have been convincing to readers and publishers. I would think also, you’d have to claim that “there are no convincing arguments in favor of Catholicism”.
This follows your proof for this in the fact that many people do not accept Catholicism – therefore, there are no convincing arguments in its favor (according to this view).

At any rate, it appears that you do have a “convincing argument” of some kind and I’d like to hear what that is. If it is convincing, then nobody could disagree with it, apparently.
Therefore arguments from Intelligent Design are rarely productive in today’s atmosphere. In fact, depending on how those arguments are conducted, they can actually be counter-productive, as your own reaction has shown.
Pointing out the theological problems in your position was “counter-productive” to anyone trying to advance that position – so, yes that is true.
My siding with the Jesuit is not heretical, and neither are his opinions.
The Holy See has proclaimed an opinion to be anathema - and therefore heretical. You proclaimed that very opinion and have done nothing to correct it thus far. It may be more helpful to explain your own views rather than attack me.
However, if you have converted Atheists using arguments from Intelligent Design, I congratulate you! 😉
Two of the world’s most prominent atheists have recently been converted to theism through Intelligent Design arguments. This was not my doing, so I hope you’ll direct your congratulations to the scientists who advanced Intelligent Design theories.
 
“*Originally Posted by Detales
In short, ID does not belittle God, who cannot be belittled. We belittle our understanding of ourselves and God by believing such things as ID.”

ricmat: “What? And your understanding of God is so complete that it does not belittle God? Tell me how that works, please. *”

First you must explain your claim that my understanding belittles the God I say cannot be belittled. If you can do that, you will have answered a whole raft of questions evaded by many on here.

Bindar Doondat, FZPC
 
The usual comment, and it’s been heard in the last few posts is … “you really don’t know what you’re talking about.” Or, “You won’t win anyone over with ID.” Is that an argument worthy of a Catholic intellectual?
Win over to what? Pantheism? Theism? Some other philosophical allowance for a first cause? Is that how the Apostles preached the Gospel? Is that how they were commissioned to preach the Gospel by Jesus Christ?
 
MoM~“What do you mean by rational? Are you saying there is an objective standard? Should i find the rational more wonderful then the unknown? And why is the unknown less rational?

That is a good question. Rational means ordered by reason into valid an/or true relationships, or at least relationships that work ad hoc, or anything derived from reason that is testable and/or repeatable. I don’t know for you if you should find anything anyway. To me, the rational and the unknown are bot wonders. And often the rational seems to appear miraculously out of the unknown. That is a miracle in itself. And the rational to some extent is modified by new experiences. Some things remain and are as durable as 2+2, and others are more at the edge of physics and more likely to morph.

I’m not sure what you man by naturalism, but my take on the Inverse is so far a much more intimate proposition than creationism, ID, or atheism. I don’t think that it happened by chance, though what looks to us to be chance is part of it.

As for something appearing miraculous, I’m referring to the idea that over time many things that are unknown become know, at least in some regard. When it was unknown, it might have been regarded as a miracle. Known, we have an accounting of that event in thinkable terms. But certainly not all of human experience appears to be rationally thinkable. That is why we have such words as sense, feeling, wonder, and miracle.

I don’t feel that the Universe exists other than to discover what can be, at every level of manifestation and experience.
 
Ambrose

Win over to what? Pantheism? Theism? Some other philosophical allowance for a first cause? Is that how the Apostles preached the Gospel? Is that how they were commissioned to preach the Gospel by Jesus Christ?

The Scientists doesn’t have to use his science to preach the Gospels. But, like the poet, the architect, and the composer he has a cognitive avenue to God that should not be suppressed. Reggie referred to new converts from atheism (Antony Flew is certainly one of them) who have been impressed by developments in modern science. They can move from that spot farther on down the road (as Flew appears to be doing by corresponding with Bishop N.T. Wright about Jesus). The question is not whether Intelligent Design is a substitute for the Gospels, but whether it shows that science cannot arrogantly be used by atheistic scientists to demonstrate that the universe is not filled with laws that strongly argue a Lawgiver. Scientists are bound by the same rules of evidence as anyone else. If they cannot prove abiogenesis by accident, and if abiogenesis by accident looks to be so unlikely as to be ludicrous, then the alternate explanation wins the day.

Every scientist will take that as his modus operandi, that when you make a scientific assertion you have to supply evidence. When the evidence is extremely doubtful, and worse, when it doesn’t even exist, one has no business denying the better and more believable hypothesis, assuming there to be no other competing alternatives.

Irreducible complexity argues very strongly for design. Science has been trying for fifty years to explain abiogenesis by accident and cannot. Don’t even try to explain it by evolution, as evolution does not apply to the origin of life but rather to what happened after life was fully established on the planet.
 
reggie

Two of the world’s most prominent atheists have recently been converted to theism through Intelligent Design arguments. This was not my doing, so I hope you’ll direct your congratulations to the scientists who advanced Intelligent Design theories.

Antony Flew was one. Who was the other?
 
Charlemagne II:
The question is not whether Intelligent Design is a substitute for the Gospels, but whether it shows that science cannot arrogantly be used by atheistic scientists to demonstrate that the universe is not filled with laws that strongly argue a Lawgiver. Scientists are bound by the same rules of evidence as anyone else. If they cannot prove abiogenesis by accident, and if abiogenesis by accident looks to be so unlikely as to be ludicrous, then the alternate explanation wins the day.
I must have somehow missed what the question was (only going by the thread title.) However, I see your point (I think) But my viewpoint was whether ID was a substitute for the Gospels, therefore tending to belittle God, and so my posts were meant. Your argument then, is actually with scientists that have overstepped their scientific boundaries and have been preaching abiogenesis like some sort of new religion. That is a valid complaint. But how are they to be reined in? They must be shown that they have overstepped their boundaries.
 
“*Originally Posted by Detales
In short, ID does not belittle God, who cannot be belittled. We belittle our understanding of ourselves and God by believing such things as ID.”

ricmat: “What? And your understanding of God is so complete that it does not belittle God? Tell me how that works, please. *”

First you must explain your claim that my understanding belittles the God I say cannot be belittled. If you can do that, you will have answered a whole raft of questions evaded by many on here.

Bindar Doondat, FZPC
Your claim was that ID belittles our understanding…of God. You said so yourself above. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you know that ID does not present itself as a complete understanding of God. ]

My point is that since we are infinitely inferior to God, that any understanding we claim to have about God is very incomplete and not close to the real thing. Including your alternative understanding of God (which you seem to believe to be superior to ID in some regard).

So tell me, how much “better” is your understanding of God than ID? How much less does your understanding of God belittle him than ID? Is whatever superiority you claim for your own views over ID even perceptible on the scale of “no understanding of God at one end, to complete understanding of God at the other end”?

To say that there is design in nature, which is detectable (which is what ID is about), acknowledges God as the intelligent (not random) creator of all things. No one claims it is the whole story.
 
Ambrose

Your argument then, is actually with scientists that have overstepped their scientific boundaries and have been preaching abiogenesis like some sort of new religion. That is a valid complaint. But how are they to be reined in? They must be shown that they have overstepped their boundaries.

Yes, there must be a kind of scientific mysticism about abiogenesis if it cannot be explained scientifically to have happened by pure chance. But people like Dawkins go further to assume that chance is the default position to take regarding abiogenesis. Why? The only reason can be that it (chance abiogenesis) supports the atheist presumption that the universe is purposeless and undirected.

The question you raise is not an easy one to answer. I don’t know how you get into an atheist’s head and help him to see that it is atheism governing his science at the same time he complains that it is religion governing Intelligent Design. If I was talking to an atheist up close and personal, the main point I would want to make is to ask him if he sees intelligent design anywhere in the universe. If he doesn’t, he is a hopeless case, because he is denying even the intelligent design I use in my sentences, or he uses in his, when we are talking to each other. Since, then, intelligent design of a particular kind clearly exists, the atheist has a model from which to construct a more general idea of intelligent design wherever order is seen anywhere in the history of the universe.

The mathematicians and astronomers are in some ways more design oriented than the biologists. Starting at the beginning of the universe, they look for, and find, that the first elements and laws of creation (the Big Bang) were conducive to the eventual appearance of life somewhere in the universe. If the conditions of the Big Bang were only slightly different than they were, life would not have been possible.

This is the same tack I would take with atheists. If the conditions of planet Earth were only slightly different than they were, life would have been impossible. If there had been no water, or if our distance was just slightly closer to or farther away from the sun, or if there was no adequate gravity to support life, or if all the 25 elements that compose living matter were not present in abundance, or if the actual coming together of those elements to create the first living organisms (irreducibly complex to boot) was not believable as an accident of nature, or if you take these and a thousand other observable conditions necessary for life and total them up, then I would say that science is not on the side of pure chance. It begins to look more and more as though the planet is a laboratory, an experiment designed by some intelligence far greater than our own.

But this is approaching a philosophy of science that the atheist cannot abide. I think this is not because it is intellectually unacceptable, but because atheism is rooted in the emotions rather than in the intellect, so I’m not sure how far we get with atheists by trying to point out signs of intelligence behind the universe, the signs that Newton and Einstein took to be clearly visible. Antony Flew is a classic case of the atheist who follows the evidence where it leads … in Flew’s case to God. But I have not in my experience found many atheists who are equally open to a point of view most of them have passionately held since they were teenagers. In that sense, as you suggest, there is a new mysticism, a new religion called Atheism.

This new religion tries to belittle God by denying that God exists … and forbids that anyone should even deduce their way to God by any scientific discovery that challenges the idea of a purposeless universe.

MIght as well say all Sacred Music should be outlawed because it proves nothing about God, yet proves that people are fools for singing it.
 
ricmat,

It might be useful if you read what I stated and repied on those grounds rather thatn advancing your interpretation of what you think I said. If you can do that, I would be happy to continue our conversation.

BD
 
Charlemagne II:
But this is approaching a philosophy of science that the atheist cannot abide. I think this is not because it is intellectually unacceptable, but because atheism is rooted in the emotions rather than in the intellect, so I’m not sure how far we get with atheists by trying to point out signs of intelligence behind the universe, the signs that Newton and Einstein took to be clearly visible.
At last! We are on the same page! 😉
 
Ambrose

so I’m not sure how far we get with atheists by trying to point out signs of intelligence behind the universe, the signs that Newton and Einstein took to be clearly visible.

My saying that means that whereas Dawkins will not be won over by intelligent design, Flew will. But the reasoning behind ID is not to advance it as a tool for conversion so much as an insight into Creation.

The atheists will fight ID just as they fought the Big Bang (and some of them still do fight the Big Bang because they can’t stand the idea of a created universe … Whoa! Too close to Genesis!).
 
reggie

Two of the world’s most prominent atheists have recently been converted to theism through Intelligent Design arguments. This was not my doing, so I hope you’ll direct your congratulations to the scientists who advanced Intelligent Design theories.

Antony Flew was one. Who was the other?
A.N. Wilson. He read the ID book, Why Us? by James Le Fanu and that prompted his conversion to Christianity.

edit – it was one of several influences that converted him. He questioned Darwinian theory especially with regards to the origin and meaning of morality, and he found the Le Fanu book to be a strong challenge to scientific-materialism.
 
But my viewpoint was whether ID was a substitute for the Gospels, therefore tending to belittle God, and so my posts were meant.
If ID is used as a substitute for the Gospels (and it may be for some), then I would fully agree with your concern.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top