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Angelos
Guest
Planten, I am shocked to hear that you believe Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad are God!
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Angelos
Guest
We Christians have no problem with this passage from the Book of Deuteronomy. As usual, I have a number of objections to the irrational Islamic allegations regarding this part of our Bible:
1) The words uttered by Moses before his death are not a prophecy, but a blessing. Let’s read the verses:
Deuteronomy 33:1-2
This is the blessing, wherewith the man of God, Moses, blessed the children of Israel, before his death. And he said:
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**The Lord** came from Sinai, and from Seir **he** rose up to us: **he** hath appeared from mount Pharan, and with **him** thousands of saints. In **his** right hand a fiery law.The Islamic allegations and interpretation are exteremely blasphemous!
3) If we consider the Islamic lies true for a short time, nothing can prevent us from posing the question “Why are the names of these three places missing from the Koran?” and “Why is Jesus allegedly associated with Seir rather than with Nazareth?” (The Koran calls Jesus’ followers Nazareans!)
4) Why is Abraham not included into this so-called prophecy? According to Islam, he is the father of Muslims (their Islamic faith/nation), the Imam of mankind, and the constructer of the Cube. How is it possible for this prophecy to lack Abraham, such a significant person for Islam???
5) Where is David’s name in this supposed prophecy? According to the Koran, he was one of the three major Israeli prophets who was given a revelation from Allah!
Waiting for answers as soon as possible.
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SimonArizona
Guest
Prophecy?
**Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. **
The Catholic Church has Mass everyday that is the same offering on every shore. The Mass is this pure and holy offering.
**Psa 113:3 From the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same the LORD’S name [is] to be praised. **
**Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. **
The Catholic Church has Mass everyday that is the same offering on every shore. The Mass is this pure and holy offering.
**Psa 113:3 From the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same the LORD’S name [is] to be praised. **
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jblake
Guest
hamba2han;:
b) As part of the creation of the Q;ran, it has been proven beyond any shadow of doubt, that earlier stories were taken, then retranslated into a form to make the political domination more palatable to the victims of the political controllers. Part of this process aws to prohibit any but the official interpretation of the doctrines, and texts used. This is so that independent thought does not instantly prove that the proposed theology is literally chasing after false gods, as the Africans proved a millennium ago.
c) One major fallacy is that you are assuming that the place being referred to is the place that you think it is. (Biblical Geography and theological bias are always 100% congruent.)
d) If you really paid attention to that verse, you’d realize that it was referring to the area over which God’s Glory, and all of his Saints covered at the time that Blessing was being given.
Aargh, I just realized what your handle translates into English as.
jonathon
a) The Q’ran has been demonstrably proven beyond any shadow of doubt to have been constructed for political purposes, unifying nomadic tribes in their destruction of other people, rather than themselves;
b) As part of the creation of the Q;ran, it has been proven beyond any shadow of doubt, that earlier stories were taken, then retranslated into a form to make the political domination more palatable to the victims of the political controllers. Part of this process aws to prohibit any but the official interpretation of the doctrines, and texts used. This is so that independent thought does not instantly prove that the proposed theology is literally chasing after false gods, as the Africans proved a millennium ago.
c) One major fallacy is that you are assuming that the place being referred to is the place that you think it is. (Biblical Geography and theological bias are always 100% congruent.)
d) If you really paid attention to that verse, you’d realize that it was referring to the area over which God’s Glory, and all of his Saints covered at the time that Blessing was being given.
Would you prefer it shredded letter by letter, or word by word. It outdoes Jack Chick in its utter lack of compression of what it allegedly demonstrates.
Probably because Muslims have repeatedly failed to adhere the commandments in their own work, recognizing it to be a book encouraging the worship of false goddesses, and a false god. (When was the last time you prayed to your Lunar Goddesses that the Q’ran commands you to worship on a daily basis?)
Aargh, I just realized what your handle translates into English as.
jonathon
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TomaszA
Guest
Deut 33:1 is referring to the Israelite conquest of Canaan
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hamba2han
Guest
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ZAKI
Guest
Firstly, you are off the topic!
Secondly, you are being rude
thirdly, Muhammed (pbuh) being illiterate proves that he must of got the Quran from god
fourthly, talking on battles-how about we start talking about the crusades when millions of christians went to jerusalem to claim it-how about we talk about the hundreds of battles and wars, christians fought in-fighting each other for power or against other religions.
Finally, you should see at least one simialarity between the christian and muslim god and that is: they are both worshipped
wasalam
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planten
Guest
Zaki, you missed the most important killing of the christians by the crusaders. The Crusaders killed many christians of Jerusalem not knowing that they were christians. That was a man slaughter of their own faith people. Such ignorant warriors came from such along distance.Firstly, you are off the topic!
Secondly, you are being rude
thirdly, Muhammed (pbuh) being illiterate proves that he must of got the Quran from god
fourthly, talking on battles-how about we start talking about the crusades when millions of christians went to jerusalem to claim it-how about we talk about the hundreds of battles and wars, christians fought in-fighting each other for power or against other religions.
Finally, you should see at least one simialarity between the christian and muslim god and that is: they are both worshipped
wasalam
I need not make another post.Hamba has very nicely and very gently given very good reply in the post above. Nothing could be better. Wassalam.
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Angelos
Guest
Your argument is impertinent to the current debate. The words in Deuteronomy apparently refer to God through the repetitive use of the same personal pronoun after the word “The Lord”. If someone claims that each identical personal pronoun refers to different prophets, the conclusion is that Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad were considered equal to the God of Israel. As far as I know, Islam does not support such a belief or doctrine.
As for Christ’s divinity, Jesus is always with the Father and in the Father. This is why every reference to the God of Israel also refers to Jesus. Jesus, as the Word (Logos) existed at the time of Moses and gave Israel His Law.
It seems that this question is a very challenging one and that you have not studied your lesson well.
Your argument implies that God (supposedly) made a mistaken reference while predicting the the place of Jesus’ prophetic mission because he did not know and could not predict that a place with the name “Nazareth” would exist in Jesus’ period and would be associated with Jesus.
More to the point, your presumption fails to answer why specifically Seir, and not any other existing and/or known place at that time, was allegedly added to this so-called prophecy to predict Jesus’ mission. Why was Seir considered such a significant place?
Above all, Allah somehow forgets about this so-called prophecy of Deuteronomy and never refers to Seir while relating Jesus’ prophetic mission.
This response of yours absolutely undermines your theory as it contradicts the fact that you interpret the first referent in the verses as Moses . If this is a prophecy of the future events, how can the first personal pronoun (he) refer to Moses?
This answer is not actually an answer since it fails to answer my question. I still wonder what criterion determines the number and names of the figures in this so-called prophecy? Is it something arbitrary? Why Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad?
Islam considers David one of the four prophets who was (allegedly) revealed a book. He was also an Israeli. This tenet puts David into the same category as Moses and Jesus. It is not plausible to see Moses skip David in this so-called prophecy.
The following question remains:
Why is David missing from Moses’ supposed prophecy? (Jerusalem would be associated with his prophetic mission and kingdom)
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ralphinal
Guest
DAvid could be skipped because one of his main prophacies is the Crucifixion of Christ…Your argument is impertinent to the current debate. The words in Deuteronomy apparently refer to God through the repetitive use of the same personal pronoun after the word “The Lord”. If someone claims that each identical personal pronoun refers to different prophets, the conclusion is that Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad were considered equal to the God of Israel. As far as I know, Islam does not support such a belief or doctrine.
As for Christ’s divinity, Jesus is always with the Father and in the Father. This is why every reference to the God of Israel also refers to Jesus. Jesus, as the Word (Logos) existed at the time of Moses and gave Israel His Law.
It seems that this question is a very challenging one and that you have not studied your lesson well.
Your argument implies that God (supposedly) made a mistaken reference while predicting the the place of Jesus’ prophetic mission because he did not know and could not predict that a place with the name “Nazareth” would exist in Jesus’ period and would be associated with Jesus.
More to the point, your presumption fails to answer why specifically Seir, and not any other existing and/or known place at that time, was allegedly added to this so-called prophecy to predict Jesus’ mission. Why was Seir considered such a significant place?
Above all, Allah somehow forgets about this so-called prophecy of Deuteronomy and never refers to Seir while relating Jesus’ prophetic mission.
This response of yours absolutely undermines your theory as it contradicts the fact that you interpret the first referent in the verses as Moses . If this is a prophecy of the future events, how can the first personal pronoun (he) refer to Moses?
This answer is not actually an answer since it fails to answer my question. I still wonder what criterion determines the number and names of the figures in this so-called prophecy? Is it something arbitrary? Why Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad?
Islam considers David one of the four prophets who was (allegedly) revealed a book. He was also an Israeli. This tenet puts David into the same category as Moses and Jesus. It is not plausible to see Moses skip David in this so-called prophecy.
The following question remains:
Why is David missing from Moses’ supposed prophecy? (Jerusalem would be associated with his prophetic mission and kingdom)
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hamba2han
Guest
The way that God Almighty sees the Prophets (peace be upon them all) who He has sent and the way that the people see them are two different things.
The fact that you are placing emphasis on certain Prophets shows a certain bias in your belief.
The Creator however knows exactly all the trials and tribulations that every one of His Prophets would have endured in their mission whereas we the creations would not know the severity of these trials and tribulations that they had to endure apart from what we learn in the scriptures.
Islam teaches that the 5 mightiest Messengers of Allah are the Prophets Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all).
Others like Adam, David, Solomon, John the Baptist, Ishmael, Isaac, Joseph, Lot, Jonah and Aaron are among the 25 Prophets (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all) who are also mentioned in the Qur’an.
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Angelos
Guest
This is what I have long been trying to remind you! Your interpretation of the supposed prophecy in Deuteronomy is based on how some Muslim scholars arbitrarily choose some prophets and ignore others.
Actually, this is what I am blaming some Muslim scholars for! The fact that they lay emphasis on certain prophets shows a certain bias in their Islamic beliefs.
This brief lecture is impertinent to my post. My questions are still there.
The Islamic interrpretation of Deuteronomy 33 makes the reader conclude that the number of the mightiest prophets in Islam is 3 rather than 5!
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hamba2han
Guest
When read together with John 10:30 i.e. “I and my Father are one”, the Christian interpretation of Deuteronomy 33 makes the reader conclude that Jesus (pbuh) came from Sinai and shined forth from mount Paran with ten thousand of saints and that he brought in his right hand a fiery law for them.
Am I right… or is there a theological reason why John 10:30 has no relation whatsoever with Deuteronomy 33:1-2?
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pismopal
Guest
You have a computer. Google the Nicene Creed and read it carefully slowly and think really hard. This is what we Catholics believe and it is what we will always believe. If Jesus was not what He said He was and is…then He was either a liar or a lunatic and He was neither of those but certainly not a Prophet. The Trinity may be hard for you to wrap your mind around but true it is regardless.
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TomaszA
Guest
It’s actually debatable whether Muhammad was really illiterate. It may be a claim the Muslim community applied to him in order to make the Qur’an miraculous.
We have to remember the Arabs of the Hijaaz had a strong oral tradition such that being illiterate would not necessarily mean inability to make prose.
I think the important distinction is that Christianity does not call for war as a means of spreading itself or solving problems. There is what we call “Just War” when society is pushed out of necessity to defend itself because there is no other option. This can’t be compared to the Islamic call for Jihad, which is waged against even non combative nations that pose no threat to the Islamic state.
As for the Crusades I am no historian, however I understand that they were initiated as a response to Jihad. As the Seljuk Turks began capturing more and more Christian territory, the Eastern Emperor sought aid from his Christian neighbors in the West, to which the Pope responded. I think those Christians had the right to defend themselves against the Islamic onslaught, though we can’t say that everything that occurred in the Crusades was justifiable, in fact, there was much evil. As a Christian I can distinguish between the justness of war and the justness in war.
I agree and I would look to see what the Church actually says about this. This is a relevant passage from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:Finally, you should see at least one simialarity between the christian and muslim god and that is: they are both worshipped
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
Jimmy Akin comments on this passage and clears up and misunderstandings especially regarding “plan of salvation” and “professing to hold the faith of Abraham”: catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207bt.asp
God bless,
Tomasz
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Angelos
Guest
Jesus existed as God almighty prior to His incarnation. The verses in Deuteronomy are related to the Theophany (manifestation) of the God of Israel:
Numbers 10:12
So the Israelites set out on their journeys from the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud settled in the wilderness of Paran.
Since the Father and the Son are ONE in essence and nature, it is true that Jesus, prior to His incarnation, was with the Father when God appeared to Israel in glory and splendour .The verses in Deuteronomy apparently refer to the divine Theophany, which has nothing to do with Jesus’ prophetic mission in flesh.
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hamba2han
Guest
The verses refer to the Theophany, you say??
How then do the “ten thousands of saints” fit into the picture?.. Who were they exactly and did the Lord appear to them as well?
What indeed was the “fiery law” that was given to all of these ten thousands of saints?
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Sailka
Guest
Well said, Zaki! And you are almost 15! :clapping: Selfish Problem people create false images, propaganda we must correct. And God/Allah/Budhah/Jahwe, Whatever name we use, wants Only helping, respecting each other. And stopping lies. Our Obligation is to Always help others,Firstly, you are off the topic!
Secondly, you are being rude
thirdly, Muhammed (pbuh) being illiterate proves that he must of got the Quran from god
fourthly, talking on battles-how about we start talking about the crusades when millions of christians went to jerusalem to claim it-how about we talk about the hundreds of battles and wars, christians fought in-fighting each other for power or against other religions.
Finally, you should see at least one simialarity between the christian and muslim god and that is: they are both worshipped
wasalam
Not ourselves.Peace!
One technical correction to all: All ‘religious wars’ were started by selfish rulers, Powers, Using religion falselly to justify their aggression. Full History Proves that. All ‘religious wars’. By irreligous leaders, violating God’s intentions. None of the Crusades were led by Catholic Church, but secular leaders, often after Property, Power.
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cathopologist
Guest
Not necessarily true. The Crusades were in fact to reclaim the Holy Land from the Muslims who invaded God’s land. It was also to protect pilgrims from being robbed, harassed and in some cases raped or murdered by Muslim bandits/soldiers.
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Sailka
Guest
Very true, initially. But things quickly degenerated by Irreligious Secular Leaders, like the Pillaging of Constantinople, sponsored by the Venetian Bankers, initially to collect Loan IOU’s; etc, etc. None of the Crusades were Church Led, and most degenerated to selfish hatred, property and power grabbing. Several Muslim cities saw the entire population massacred. Is no Religious excuse. The Reason was the often false or exaggerated Propaganda to Incite the Crusaders to Fight. Is true of almost all wars except some of WW II.
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