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Freddy
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There’s no need to go back two thousand years. 14 is the current age at which a girl in Italy (and hence in the Vatican State) can marry, have sex and give birth.
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LilyM
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Then as now, having sex with someone who was not consenting (regardless of age) was abuse, was wrong and a sin. Someone who.is not physically ready is hardly consenting are they?TK421:
I didn’t mean specifically a boundary regarding age, but I think it’s a good first step if we acknowledge that the youngest it is humanly possible for someone to be mature enough to marry is at twelve, then we could put the general age limit a little higher than that.
Where I think the Church failed in her responsibility is that in spite of common sense and the opinions of many leading theologians they did not require abstinence from marital relations for children. Granted, this follows from natural law and it was certainly widely practiced, but the Church should have mandated it as well. Not doing so has probably led to some horrifying experiences for at least a few people in history.
Consent was always required, which is why the wedding ceremony requires bride and groom to say yes. A marriage entered without understanding and consent has always been invalid.
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phil19034
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Well, considering that the Life Expectancy was only around 35 years of age, no I don’t have an issue with it.
Children were considered adults once they finished puberty & could become a biological parent.
It wasn’t until the education started becoming mandatory did we start to increase of age of adulthood.
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www.verywellhealth.com
BTW - the average Catholic was NOT getting married at 12 anyway. Twelve was canon law simply because that was viewed as the earliest age people (eps girls) would finish puberty.
The 12 year old marriage were typically limited to the noble class & rich families who were marrying for political reasons. The average Catholic would have been getting married in their late teens or very early 20s (and definitely after puberty).
Children were considered adults once they finished puberty & could become a biological parent.
It wasn’t until the education started becoming mandatory did we start to increase of age of adulthood.
How Has Life Expectancy Changed Throughout History?
Learn from a historical perspective how lifespan and life expectancy have evolved from prehistoric times to ancient times to 1800 to what it is today.
BTW - the average Catholic was NOT getting married at 12 anyway. Twelve was canon law simply because that was viewed as the earliest age people (eps girls) would finish puberty.
The 12 year old marriage were typically limited to the noble class & rich families who were marrying for political reasons. The average Catholic would have been getting married in their late teens or very early 20s (and definitely after puberty).
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1ke
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No we aren’t. The OP said “canon law”.
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phil19034
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- exposing a person to porn at 99 years of age is equally as evil to exposing an 11 year old.
- the reason why (today) we are more “disgusted” is because parents don’t want their children exposed to evil. Porn is evil, plain and simple. However, we have (recently) legalized porn for LEGAL adults.
In Saudi Arabia (for example) at the age of legal adulthood is whenever the physical signs of puberty are are obviously viable (with 15 as the upper limit). In other words, everyone is a legal adult in Saudi Arabia by 15 and any child younger than that is considered a legal adult once it’s obvious they are post pubescent.
In Scotland, you are a legal adult at 16
In the United States, the legal age for adulthood in 47 States (plus DC, Guam, American Samoa, Northern Mariana Islands, & the U.S. Virgin Islands). While the age of adulthood in 19 years of age in Alabama & Nebraska & the age of adulthood is 21 in Mississippi & Puerto Rico.
In 6 of Canada’s Provinces, you are a legal adult at 18. In their remaining Provinces & Territories, you are an adult at 19.
Honestly, it really all depends on where you are from. But the older age for legal adulthood is a very modern invention, driven primarily by mandatory schooling.
Age of majority - Wikipedia
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Nicene
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Actually it’s 16
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1ke
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Uh. Yeah it does. Canon 1083.
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mary77
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the ability to have children is designed by nature to be at puberty and if waiting so much longer gives an advantage then today all these parents having kids should have the most perfect children compared to having them at puberty but is education and age needed or the ability to love to cling to your spouse and to fall in love with your child and be there for them much longer because you had them so young, in fact to probably be there for your great grandchildren too…ive thought about this. Todays divorce rate of 50 percent does not flatter the side of parenthood later in life.
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MNathaniel
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No, they didn’t end up together. It didn’t work out. As far as his online activity indicates, he’s currently single.
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tuffsmurf
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The data from mid 18th century Sweden (which is the most reliable for that time period) shows that average life expectancy for someone who had reached 15 actually was 55 years. So indeed it seems to be the norm to reach your 50s in you didn’t die in childhood.
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Nicene
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Could you share that data Source? According to the UN life expectancy in Sweden in the 1700’s (18th cent) The average Life expectancy was 35-40 in Sweden. Beginning to rise to steady 40’s til 1868. Then the industrial revolution increased the life expectancy, which is consistent with the rest of the industrialized world.
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Theban
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I think that’s a fair argument, and because of this and more of these kinds of natural conclusions I don’t think the old canon law explicitly condoned having sex with children, but I still think it’s problematic that the Church didn’t actively include these conclusions in the official teaching. Coercion before marriage can be difficult to prove, and consent within a marriage is always implied (at least in the past), so relying on these to protect children isn’t good enough, in my opinion.
Several high standing theologians outright condemned sex at a too early age, even though society was such that it was necessary for them to marry then, and since child marriage was so rarely practiced it is fair to assume that the local ordinances of most places were stricter as well. So I think the leaders of the Church did a terrible thing by neglecting to specify that a married child should still not be having sex.
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tuffsmurf
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Yes, of course. It is mostly in swedish though, but the relevant numbers can be found on pages 118-119. Notice the large difference between remaining life expectancy for newborns and for 15 year olds.
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Theban
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Life expectancy in pre-industrial Europe is a really controversial topic among historians. There’s not a lot of data to go by, and so many so called academic papers about it can use it to back absolutely ridiculous ideas. Most seem to propose this strange idea that life expectancy has somehow steadily increased forever, with a large jump in the late modern period.
The worst example of this I’ve seen was one paper that suggested life expectancy in the year 1000 in Europe was about 20(!), with a steady increase up until the effects of the industrial revolution kicked in. They didn’t even bother putting in a symbolic temporary drop in the curve to account for the Black Death.
I think it’s fair to say life expectancy is higher now than it was 300 years ago, but that is mostly because of infant mortality and entirely because of larger mortality rates among young people in the past. Psalm 89 in the Bible, which was written more than two thousand years ago, says that “the length of our days” is about 70 or 80 years, which is the same as today.
The worst example of this I’ve seen was one paper that suggested life expectancy in the year 1000 in Europe was about 20(!), with a steady increase up until the effects of the industrial revolution kicked in. They didn’t even bother putting in a symbolic temporary drop in the curve to account for the Black Death.
I think it’s fair to say life expectancy is higher now than it was 300 years ago, but that is mostly because of infant mortality and entirely because of larger mortality rates among young people in the past. Psalm 89 in the Bible, which was written more than two thousand years ago, says that “the length of our days” is about 70 or 80 years, which is the same as today.
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LilyM
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Well its hardly like it was ever universally accepted for all people in their early teens.LilyM:
I think that’s a fair argument, and because of this and more of these kinds of natural conclusions I don’t think the old canon law explicitly condoned having sex with children, but I still think it’s problematic that the Church didn’t actively include these conclusions in the official teaching. Coercion before marriage can be difficult to prove, and consent within a marriage is always implied (at least in the past), so relying on these to protect children isn’t good enough, in my opinion.
Several high standing theologians outright condemned sex at a too early age, even though society was such that it was necessary for them to marry then, and since child marriage was so rarely practiced it is fair to assume that the local ordinances of most places were stricter as well. So I think the leaders of the Church did a terrible thing by neglecting to specify that a married child should still not be having sex.
Someone mentioned Romeo and Juliet upthread. In that play there is a debate among the adults as to.whether Juliet is actually old enough to safely bear children, and so to be married.
And there are plenty of marriage contracts where a condition is that consummation of the marriage be delayed for a period.of time.
Folks were well aware that for a girl to.have sex and get pregnant too.young might actually damage her body and ruin her fertility.
Marriages among the upper classes (which were the most likely to occur at a young age) were mostly about perpetuating the line and forming alliances rather than love or lust. So they did usually take care about such things.
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Avermaria
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Isn’t this slightly incorrect though? The entire Canon was established in 1917 but the marriageable ages were established by Gratian during the 12th century and it was done with an emphasis in consent being able to be done at 12 (apart from the arguments that puberty begins at 12). I digress, if we use Gratian’s point of view of consent being important then it is important to consider the brain doesn’t finish developing until about 25 but (imo) adulthood (so going to the military, buying alcohol, etc.) can be established at around 21 as puberty is done and the brain is mostly done developing so a person would have the mental capabilties to actually consent.
This raises another question, as the laity is it a sin to critcize or question the Church’s previous law and decisions even if the Church has changed these laws?
This raises another question, as the laity is it a sin to critcize or question the Church’s previous law and decisions even if the Church has changed these laws?
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tuffsmurf
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I saw you edited your reply, and the statement that age of menarche was 12-15 is consistent with all that I’ve red on the topic as well. Happy we cleared that up.
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