Does it bother anyone else the marriageable age was 12 before?

[stpurl]

1925 to 1962.
There was a decline inn menarche WORLD WIDE in the last century or so from the levels it had been at the turn of the century.
But that level might not have been the level at the turn of the PREVIOUS century,
Or the one before.

 

[stpurl]

Did you ever read Romeo and Juliet?
Juliet was not quite 14 when she married Romeo.
Didn’t even raise an eyebrow in the theater, did it?

 

[tuffsmurf]

That was what I found doing a quick search about menarche in Spain. Do you have any sources?

 

[tuffsmurf]

What has that got to do with the age of puberty? Most girls have started puberty at 14, both now and then. As I said, average menarche was probably around 14 during the time of Romeo and Juliet (and individual variation was and is large). So a sexually mature 14-year old wouldn’t have been odd then and it is not odd today.

 

[stpurl]

Would you mind terribly if I got back to you later? I’ve missed my lunch chatting here and I don’t need my blood sugar to go out of whack.

 

[tuffsmurf]

I don’t mind, but then it might be night here so I maybe won’t see it until tomorrow.

 

[Theban]

When is there a clear boundary?

I didn’t mean specifically a boundary regarding age, but I think it’s a good first step if we acknowledge that the youngest it is humanly possible for someone to be mature enough to marry is at twelve, then we could put the general age limit a little higher than that.

Where I think the Church failed in her responsibility is that in spite of common sense and the opinions of many leading theologians they did not require abstinence from marital relations for children. Granted, this follows from natural law and it was certainly widely practiced, but the Church should have mandated it as well. Not doing so has probably led to some horrifying experiences for at least a few people in history.

 

[TK421]

Yes I agree.

 

[Trying2overcome]

the proper age of marriage and consent totally depends on society and culture

 

[Nicene]

People underestimate the impact of the industrial revolution. We went from a consistent 1.5 billion people in the world to 7 billion in a little over a century and a half. Average ages skyrocketed. Average life expectancy was 30-40 years old. For example Edgar Allen Poe died at 40 in 1849. He married his cousin who was 13 at the time. She died at the age of 24 from TB, which was fairly common.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I got married at 22 and some people seem to think that is too young as well, but that mindset is just ridiculous according to me.

Depends on the person. I also got married at 22, and my wife and I are ten years on going strong. I know of other people who got married around that age, or even later, who were not even remotely ready…

 

[Allegra]

The “age of majority” however, was understood to mean that a man had enough experience to be considered competent. As opposed to now, when it means they might know not to put a fork in the microwave.

 

[Vico]

So if this comes down to the cultural are we right to condemn those who are attracted to early teenagers considering canon law states females can be married at 14 and males at 16? For example there are many who view, say a 25 year old man, being attracted to a 14 year old as downright immoral if not creepy.

In the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders V the Paraphilic Disorder is a persistent and intense atypical sexual arousal patterns that are accompanied by clinically significant distress or impairment.

 

[tuffsmurf]

It was the time when a man was no longer under his father’s authority. So I would say it’s pretty much the same thing as today.

 

[1ke]

Let’s not lose sight of the fact that prior to 1917 there wasn’t really a “code of canon law” as we know it today.

The age of 12 was generally accepted as the minimum for marriage and 7 as the minimum for betrothal, as per civil laws across Europe, but there was no canon that established an impediment based on age the way we think of it today.

Until Trent there wasn’t any “form” of marriage per se, and Florence outlawed clandestine marriage but it remained valid. Parental consent was not needed then and it isn’t part of the law now, the consent of the parties made marriage, and still does.

The 1917 code placed a minimum at 14 and 16, it didn’t really “raise” the minimum because it was the civil sphere that governed age prior to that.

And the 83 code allows bishops conferences to place a higher minimum.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

For the record, when I was 22, one of my 22 year old male friends started dating a high school girl (16? 17? Whatever it was, it was technically legal in our country) and I thought THAT was creepy. I’m not saying intrinsically immoral. More like… I mean, honestly, and this might just have been that specific situation, but it seemed sad. In the sense of embarrassing, pathetic. Like, he seemed inadequately mature for girls his own age, and had been rejected by so many women his own age (I’d been one of them), that he had to find a girl young enough that she’d be attracted to him simply because he’s an ‘older man’. I didn’t get close to the situation but remember the impression of ickiness. (It wasn’t just me. Other 22 year old friends of ours also expressed feelings of awkwardness and ickiness about it. It was sort of collectively understood that he was doing something embarrassing and weird.) Again though, not based on some idea of inherent immorality (none of us technically believed in objective sexual ethics at the time anyway), but more because in the context, it seemed to highlight a sheer lack of virtues and competence with women the man’s own age. It was sort of embarrassing to be aware that it was even happening.

Not necessarily advocating, but two questions:

• Did they end up together?
• And did it work out?

If I had a daughter of that age, and if someone that much older wanted to date her, let’s just say that Romeo and I would be getting to know one another very well. There wouldn’t be any aspect of his life that I wouldn’t be all over. His parents and I would become well-acquainted too.

Full disclosure, my wife and I married when I was 32 and she was 24. Many aspects of our life together were wonderful. Some aspects were not. It lasted 14 years. We get along quite well (she’s invalidly “remarried”) and some people at our son’s former school weren’t even aware we were divorced — no affection, but much good will and good humor. I’d like to think this could serve as a model for all divorced parents.

 

[BornInMarch]

You need to look at that law in context.

For most of history medical science was nowhere near as advanced as it is in the present. While people didn’t die as young as commonly assumed, the mortality rate was still much higher than it is in the present even taking infant mortality into account - 60 years old was considered a ripe old age.

Moreover, life was harsher and people often grew up earlier. Children and early teens would often serve in the military during wars - as charioteers and armor-bearers in ancient times, as squires in the middle ages, and as powder boys or drummer boys in the early modern age. Domestically, before the modern age children from working-class families almost always worked alongside their adult fathers whether it be in the field or the factory.

The understanding in the past was that if a young person was mature enough to drum under gunfire or work 18 hour shifts in a textile mill than they would surely be mature enough to get married.

 

[JerryZ]

Sorry for having to contradict you but all the data we have on life span of different cultures were pretty much they all agree the “normal” old age of a human was around 30 years old and that was the direct result of poor diet, almost non existent health care, totally non existent sanitation, lack of potable water how could people actually make it to 50 or 60?
Yes! indeed there were exceptions to the rule and some people did make it to that age but that was not the norm.
I remember while in college I visited the London Museum and to be shocked at how short humans were in the 1600-1700 compared to today’s. Most people were the height of 12 years old of today.
The average height of human beings in Europe around this time was 65.75 inches.
Peace!

 

[TheLittleLady]

Marriage happened at a much younger time in past times and places. We cannot view this through 2020 colored glasses.

Mary was probably 14 when Christ was born.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

So let’s say that it was proposed that 12 is not too young in an agrarian society to make a ‘prudential judgement’ regarding consent. But could be in an industrial one.

No that isn’t what I’m saying.

The age by the church is a prudential judgment in canon law.

We aren’t talking about the church. We’re talking about the Vatican State. Where the legally defined age was 12. And is now 14.