Does it bother anyone else the marriageable age was 12 before?

[Lea101]

So they became pen pals romantically. And by the time they actually got married, 10 years passed. So from 1956 to 1966 with a few meetings in person, an immigration to the US. And finally a reunion.

I’m glad their parents have sense. Waiting 10 years showed good intentions. I don’t think I can keep anyone that long lol!

I remember hearing that my grandparents only married so that my grandmother could avoid rape (during the Japanese occupation in Singapore). Apparently they were depraved enough to rape, but not enough to rape wives. Hmm.

She was 14, I think. Him being 18. I don’t think they had relations until years later.

 

[F_Marturana]

The immigration part impeded their wedding plans, and then the death of my paternal grandfather after a long illness.

My dad had suggested eloping () before my mom left for the US. My mom refused.

 

[BT3241]

Considering the average life span was about 35 back them when a women could conceive they were married. Pretty short life back then.

 

[TK421]

@Lea101

Okay, so when is a person at an age that they are completely mentally and emotionally equipped for marriage? From a cognitive/developmental perspective I can already give you the correct answer: never. People never reach such an age.

Or, what is the cutoff, if we are going to insist on a chronological age? Chronological age, biological age, emotional age, and mental age can all vary widely from person to person. Governments choose a certain cutoff point but this is to some extent arbitrary and can be debated.

I don’t disagree with you that an older age is more prudent for that kind of commitment but it’s anachronistic and Puritanical to look at past cultures and to say that what they were doing was intrinsically immoral. For almost all of human history people started working pretty much as soon as they had the motor skills to thread a needle or work a hammer. Once they hit puberty they were at a viable age for sexual relations. It still happens in remote cultures. That is life/biology.

And as far as religion goes: we already the know the answer because it isn’t something the Church has historically condemned, and the Church has a grave responsibility to do this. It would have meant that people were being led into grave sin and that the Church said nothing, in spite of the promise by Jesus to Peter.

 

[tuffsmurf]

Average marriage age was way older than 12, more like 20.

 

[VeryBlessed]

It’s funny. Racism is largely a function of assuming that your own particular racial culture is vastly superior to other racial cultures. And of course, we consider that wrong, and it is for many reasons. But it’s funny that we feel very free to make a similar sort of judgment about cultures of the past. We assume ours is vastly superior. Judging another culture is dicey business. It’s so easy to completely misunderstand. We might want to use that same caution in judging the cultures of the past. Because every culture is made up of fallen human beings, there will be sin and consequences of sin in every culture.

 

[Allegra]

I was astounded to learn that August Chouteau was 13 years old when he helped organize the settling of the city of St. Louis. And by “helped” I mean, Laclede, his stepfather, left him some instructions and he basically carried them out. Until fairly recently, childhood ended much earlier than it does today. People just didn’t have the time to “find themselves” that we provide children. By 12, it was expected that most young people would have learned the skills required for them to start course on their adult lives. Obviously, they were still young, and it was expected that the more senior member of society would continue to advise and support them to some degree until they were more experienced, but they were considered grown. My maternal grandmother had a graduation portrait of herself on her wall and I always though she looked very young for a high schooler. Later, I realized that she was 13. She was graduating from elementary school, and that was considered “graduated” for a working-class girl. She raised four children, mostly on her own after her husband died, on an 8th grade education. And that was normal. I’m not sure what happened and when or how. But the idea that people aren’t really “adults” until they are 18, 21, or 25 is certainly new in the history of the word.

 

[BT3241]

I don’t know about that its said Mary was about 12 -14 years old when she married - 12 years old and half your life is gone back then.

 

[tuffsmurf]

The age of majority in feudal England and onwards was 21 for men though. Teenagers was not usually seen as fully adult, but not children either.

 

[tuffsmurf]

For some people life lasted very long while others died as infants. 30 years was not considered to be old, ever in human history. Diseases could kill you at any age, at 20 as well at 40.

 

[Lea101]

Okay, so when is a person at an age that they are completely mentally and emotionally equipped for marriage? From a cognitive/developmental perspective I can already give you the correct answer: never. People never reach such an age

You may disagree with my view, but even you would say a 5 year old shouldn’t marry in any context. If you were to have a 12 year old who’s somehow as mature as the 12 year olds then, I’m sure you would put your foot down as well. Especially when it comes to an older person

In terms of a cognitive point of view we know the ‘normal’ progress of development, sure.

I’ve never said there was a clear cut age. But perhaps a focus on age gaps would have been prudent if we’re talking about the Church. While children were treated like adults, they didn’t act exactly like adults. It was precisely because they were different, that certain people noticed and written about the concept of a childhood.

I think handing a 12 year old a rifle and being sent to war is immoral. Same with handing a 12 year old to an adult and expecting her to birth a child (which we know now that this age isn’t optimal). I’m not saying I have all the answers, because I’m commenting precisely because I’m upset that they haven’t either. If people want to scream at me and say that’s my opinion…then go ahead. I’ll forever remain disgusted at anyone who even wants to be with a child!

People have been torturing each other forever, to the point where they took their children to see a man being burnt to death or whatever. I would say despite this and the progress we’ve made regarding our view towards life and humane punishment, that those methods were immoral and didn’t respect their dignity.

we already the know the answer because it isn’t something the Church has historically condemned, and the Church has a grave responsibility to do this.

I get your point, but the Church has been known to be inadequate when it comes to condemning certain things. We usually see a change of mind once things in the culture are beginning to change. E.g. Death penalty

I’m not saying that the Church has condemned it, because obviously this thread is precisely about the Church permitting it already. So I’m not denying that part. I’m just saying that the treatment and view of the child back then was wrong, and I strongly dislike cultural relativism especially when we’re talking about the treatment of people. Chickens vs dogs, then maybe I’ll participate

 

[BT3241]

I agree but its still apples and oranges - as some one said different times different world.

 

[Lea101]

12 years old and half your life is gone back then.

I would think people felt Jesus was somewhat in good health/at his prime when he died at 33? I believe there were mentions of elderly widows in the NT. 12 year olds were actually still seen as pretty young iirc

 

[BT3241]

Nobody said there were no old people - look it the average life span at that time - which mean the average person died at that age.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Nobody said there were no old people - look it the average life span at that time - which mean the average person died at that age.

The issue with that is that the statistics are skewed because of how many people died in the first few years of life. If you made it to around 10 there was a pretty good chance you’d see 60, not accounting for accidents / murders.

As to the question at hand, no, it doesn’t really bother me.

Firstly, there are debates about how often this type of marriage actually occurred.

Secondly, the purpose of marriage is the procreation and rearing of children. It might not be ideal, and it seems pretty messed up by today’s standards given what we know about human development, but they didn’t have the knowledge we do and a twelve/thirteen year old has generally started puberty and is therefore biologically capable of having children.

To be clear, given what we know now it is unequivocally a bad idea and not in the best interests of the child, but we cannot judge the past based on our current level of knowledge, we must examine their motive and understanding given the time period.

 

[tuffsmurf]

It rather means that half of the people died before that age and half died later, not that people died in particularly high rates at that age. If we were to make a curve of ages at deceased people in the USA or any country in Western Europe last year, we would see very low numbers for ages younger than 60-something. Then the numbers would getting higher very fast, peaking with late 70s. And a few 100 year olds, but very low on these extremly high ages as well.

If we were to make the same curve for first century Palestine, or feudal Europe, or any other pre-industrial society, it would be very high numbers for infants, then they would drop significantly but still be much high than for adolescents today, and then that curve would be flat/constant until ages 50 or 60, where we would see a slight increase, and then a few people who died at a very high age.

 

[tuffsmurf]

You are right but the low life expectancy was not entirely (or perhabs even mainly) due to high infant mortality. The most common cause of death was infectious diseases.

 

[BT3241]

All true but the fact remains that the average life span was very short - are today’s numbers valid ?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

You are right but the low life expectancy was not entirely (or perhabs even mainly) due to high infant mortality. The most common cause of death was infectious diseases.

Very true, but I believe infant mortality rates were still the highest factor in skewing the number to appear so young.

Thank God we have the medicines we do.

 

[tuffsmurf]

The oldest accurate statistics of those things as far as I know come from Sweden, where all births, deaths and marriages have been put in a national register since 1749. In the mid 18th century life expectancy there was about 35 years for a newborn, but had risen to 55 for those who already had reached their 15th birthday. I don’t know how representative that is for other countries, though.