Does it bother anyone else the marriageable age was 12 before?

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Tis_Bearself said:
It seems like those who complain about past cultture’s belief on this issue think that all generations had the same concept of childhood that we do today,
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I’ve been studying developmental psych, and I’m familiar with the view of childhood throughout Western history. My main point was that children weren’t treated with dignity in the past and we’ve slowly come to realise this.

This isn’t new. People once thought black people weren’t fully human. Even if it was a widely held belief, it was morally wrong. I’m just saying that children being seen as little adults were false and treating them that way was immoral. I’m not saying the adults are all burning in hell because sufficient knowledge needs to be had for that. I’m saying I wished these children were protected sooner, especially by the church.
0Scarlett_nidiyilii said:
Of course, there are other factors that tie into maturity, and a lot of them are culture-based which is why I don’t think we should go back 🙂
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No doubt on the culture’s influence. I’m just saying that those cultural views are wrong/immoral. I’ve seen many trying to use these arguments to bring back those norms (maybe because that’s the only way they’ll get wives), and I just don’t grasp how people can’t see it as immoral.

I would definitely think God would have a word with a 26 year old man if he’s trying to marry a 15 year old today. 😂
 
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Yes. I understood that very young marriages were usually those that were arranged by the higher members of society, then not consummated until the husband had his military training and whatever else a young noble man needed to learn.

And lack of consummation was also a way to ensure fidelity of the bride. If the husband was off in the military, a non virgin bride there would be no proof of fidelity at hip return. Hymen checks after the first time were standard.
 
neophyte said:
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Freddy:
Your implication that an agrarian society has different concepts of consent to an industrial one.
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I implied no such thing.
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“But in a pre-industrial agrarian society twelve might not be too young for some individuals even if most would wait longer.”

Then why specify that 12 in an agrarian society might possibly not be too young? As opposed to an industrial one?
 
Hunter-gatherer societies can be very different from each other, but the research that has been done show that very early marriages doesn’t seem to be very common. The most comprehensive anthropologic study (that I know of) that has been done on one such culture, The Bushmen of the Kalahari by H.P. Stein, concluded that average age of marriage for women was 19 years old.
 
Another practice that was common is some places during the high middle ages was sending a betrothed girl to a nunnery where she would learn to read and write and be protected from seductive men until the proper time came for the wedding (obviously only among the upper classes, though).
 
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I’m Italian American. My mom passed away recently at 77 but this was something she heard of. She had a married friend when she first moved to the US who was still a virgin.

She explained her husband refused to consummate the marriage because she was immigrating to the us before his visa was ready. His reason was how could he be sure she didn’t cheat on him.

This was early 1960’s not medieval times.
 
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Lea101 said:
I’m just saying that children being seen as little adults were false and treating them that way was immoral.
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That’s your opinion. Taken literally, you’d be saying that if the Virgin Mary was 14, or even 12, when she was married to Joseph, which would have been a reasonable age for her then and some apocryphal writers have indeed stated her age as 12 or 14, then her marriage was immoral. And her becoming pregnant by God at that age would have been immoral. I have actually seen anti-religion or anti-Christian people making this sort of statement.

I think you need to back off the moral absolutes and look at the cultures of the past time.

We can certainly say that treating any human of any age without respect for their dignity, such as forcing them into a marriage or other adult role against their will, or abusing them, was and is immoral. However, when a person was ready to take on an adult role in accordance with their past cultural norm and did so wilingly and without being abused or forced, I don’t see how we can say that was immoral. Otherwise, Mary and Joseph would have had a immoral marriage and God would have been encouraging Mary to commit immorality.
 
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F_Marturana said:
She explained her husband refused to consummate the marriage because she was immigrating to the us before his visa was ready. His reason was how could he be sure she didn’t cheat on him.

This was early 1960’s not medieval times
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Jeez. Why marry if you can’t even trust your spouse. People have been cheating on each other even in the same house!

My grandparents had similar stories too. Yuck.
 
Lea101 said:
. I’m just saying that those cultural views are wrong/immoral
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I’m not trying to troll.
I really want to get some clarity here, so I’m spit-balling a bit.

It seems to me, that the phenomenon of 12 year old marriage isn’t the same as a modern pedophilic act.
Marriage is permanent, and under canon law required the consent of both parties.

(Although I agree with you about the red-pill types on the internet who want religious, Virgin brides they can impress in bed 🤮)
 
We don’t know how old Mary was at the time of the marriage, but more importantly we do know that it was never consumated. So it doesn’t seem to belong in this discussion. It is true that 12 is the minimum marriageable age according to jewish law.
 
Yes, you can never ”be sure” of your spouse’s fidelity. You just got to have trust.
 
Jewish society did not know the marriage was unconsummated. Jesus was thought to be Joseph’s son by almost everyone during his lifetime.

Also, God made Mary pregnant at whatever very young age she likely was, so I think Mary definitely belongs in this discussion. Mary doesn’t sin and God doesn’t commit immoral acts.
 
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Lea101 said:
I would definitely think God would have a word with a 26 year old man if he’s trying to marry a 15 year old today.
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My parents met when my mom was 14 and my dad 21. They lived in two different and distant towns and their relationship at first involved first letter writing.

Dear Good friend, my son is interested in your daughter after they met at the wedding of our mutual friend.

Response: My daughter is quite young still, and if your son has honorable intentions he can write to her.

So they became pen pals romantically. And by the time they actually got married, 10 years passed. So from 1956 to 1966 with a few meetings in person, an immigration to the US. And finally a reunion.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
her marriage was immoral.
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I would say that those norms, that allowed 12 year olds to be married to adults, were immoral.

As for smaller age gaps, I can see an argument for it. Children this age are having relationships despite our modern view of childhood anyway. There’s no obvious abuse. But I would still say the general culture that treated them as adults are wrong for it (in terms of labour, war, etc).

I don’t know how old Joseph is. Mary was going to be a virgin throughout anyway, so I don’t see why their marriage is relevant here. I’m also not saying that they both sinned, if that’s what you’re insinuating.
Tis_Bearself said:
And her becoming pregnant by God at that age would have been immoral.
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That’s a huge jump from all of my points.
0Scarlett_nidiyilii said:
It seems to me, that the phenomenon of 12 year old marriage isn’t the same as a modern pedophilic act.
Marriage is permanent, and under canon law required the consent of both parties.
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If you’re talking about two twelve year olds wanting to marry vs an adult and a child, then yes. My previous posts were basically referring to a culture that allowed the latter, if that clears anything up.
0Scarlett_nidiyilii said:
Marriage is permanent, and under canon law required the consent of both parties.
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This I understand and appreciate. It certainly did ward off child marriages, especially from parents that were trying to be holy. But if nobody cared and you’re marrying just for the sake of money and security, and financial security are difficult to achieve especially for women at those times, it’s not enough protection imo.

Edit to add: I understand my complaints seem unnecessary. If we look at the past it wasn’t as if the Church was busy ardently defending all oppressed groups. In fact at times we weren’t even neutral about it. My gripe is that somehow the idea of a child with an adult isn’t universally condemned
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
No, it’s not. You just don’t want to give up your psychology-based viewpoint and are looking for a way to make the Mary story go away.

I’ll be stepping off the thread now. Have a nice day
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My point was about children having sex (and that the excuse that it’s okay because children can give birth wasn’t a good argument). So it’s upsetting to me that your mind went to God and Mary. You have a habit of stirring the poop pot, and then announcing your exit. Maybe avoid the uncharitable assumptions first.
 
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Right. Boys who were not the first born and in line to inherit the estate were apprenticed out at around seven or eight to a blacksmith or cooper or baxter to learn the trade. They couldn’t expect much help from home, since the eldest son got it all, so they were pretty much on their own at a fairly early age.
 
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