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Avermaria
Guest
My bad I should have worded this question differently. What about someone who does want to have sexual thoughts for minors and have these acts with them as well?
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Avermaria
Guest
The reason I said porn is because it is a form of sex (albeit one that is fake and immoral) that many kids are exposed to these days. If we agree that canon law said marriageable age is at 12 then would it be immoral to expose a 12-year-old to sex (or in this case a 14-year-old according to canon law)?
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Avermaria
Guest
This is heavily believed but actually false. Infant moratlity rates were through the roof so it brought down the average mortality rate. If you lived up to be 20 you could live up to around 50 or 60 provided you didn’t die of war or disease.
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Theban
Guest
Lust remains a sin, and it has always been so. It may not have been illegal to marry a twelve year old in some times and places, but pedophilia is still a crime against nature, just like all other forms of sexual immorality.
Marriage is not meant to scratch someones sexual itch, it is an indissoluble bond between a man and a woman lasting their whole life. The Church didn’t forbid children to marry, because of the assumption that there might be legitimate reasons that a twelve year old should need to marry in those days.
It was not meant to be a vindication of pedophilia, as any marriage based on lust is clearly against Church teaching, rather; this is an example of how weak leadership from the Church enabled abuses to occur without incurring penalties. The moral law has not changed, though.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Well, now we’re back to the definition of “minor” and how our society handles age of consent and marriage.
A “minor” in US society legally is someone under 18 and the age of consent usually ranges from mid-teens to higher based on whether it’s “Romeo and Juliet” situation (such as a 19-year-old dating a 16-year old, which is still technically an adult romancing a minor) or a larger age difference or someone who is in authority over the minor (such as teacher or boss) pursuing them. So we punish people who violate the law, basically.
By contrast, the age of consent in some past cultures was 10-12. And often the parents were arranging marriages, the 12-year-old wasn’t just out cruising for dates.
http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-mo... U.S., each state,age to incorporate into law.
The civil laws reflect the culture. Catholics have a duty to follow civil laws as long as they aren’t unjust.
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MNathaniel
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For the record, when I was 22, one of my 22 year old male friends started dating a high school girl (16? 17? Whatever it was, it was technically legal in our country) and I thought THAT was creepy. I’m not saying intrinsically immoral. More like… I mean, honestly, and this might just have been that specific situation, but it seemed sad. In the sense of embarrassing, pathetic. Like, he seemed inadequately mature for girls his own age, and had been rejected by so many women his own age (I’d been one of them), that he had to find a girl young enough that she’d be attracted to him simply because he’s an ‘older man’. I didn’t get close to the situation but remember the impression of ickiness. (It wasn’t just me. Other 22 year old friends of ours also expressed feelings of awkwardness and ickiness about it. It was sort of collectively understood that he was doing something embarrassing and weird.) Again though, not based on some idea of inherent immorality (none of us technically believed in objective sexual ethics at the time anyway), but more because in the context, it seemed to highlight a sheer lack of virtues and competence with women the man’s own age. It was sort of embarrassing to be aware that it was even happening.
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Freddy
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Do you have a daughter?Freddy:
That seems to me to be one of the exact reasons to marry well and young. Mutual neurological development, growing into relationship with each other, etc. It’s called One Flesh for a reason.
And I guarantee that pubescent twelve year olds in agrarian societies are quite aware of the facts of life and are very eager to get on with it.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I suspect it was the specific situation.
Growing up I was aware of girls of 16 or 17 who dated guys 4 or 5 years older with the consent of their parents. Usually the guy involved was a family friend, someone known to the girl’s father. It wasn’t creepy and the guys weren’t specifically looking for younger girls, they just got to know the girl from growing up in the same area and over time an attachment grew.
I also knew a girl from my class who, when we were 17-18, got to know a male teacher at our school who was in his 30s and divorced, and I’m pretty sure he eventually got an annulment. He wasn’t creepy either. He was a nice, funny guy. They waited to date until she graduated. They got married and had 4 kids and a long happy marriage before he died of a heart attack.
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MNathaniel
Guest
Those are lovely stories and I should have acknowledged that other half of the coin more explicitly in my comment. Because I do agree and have heard of stories like that before: couples where there happens to be an age gap and they happen to meet before the younger person is out of their teens, but the older person is balanced and healthy, the couple proceed respectfully and with parental approval, and they go on to be happily married for life.
The situation I’m referencing was definitely not that, so yeah, it was just the situation.
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1ke
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Which doesn’t change the fact it’s a false equivalence.
It would be immoral to expose a 12 year old to pornography.
The marital embrace is not pornography.
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neophyte
Guest
Sure do, but that’s not relevant. In our society twelve is too young, and even if it weren’t she wasn’t ready at that age (nor is she now at 22). But she has friends who certainly had the emotional, mental and spiritual maturity to get married when they were sixteen, which in the US would currently be considered insanely young.
But in a pre-industrial agrarian society twelve might not be too young for some individuals even if most would wait longer.
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AngelaMarie
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The idea that marriage is about love is a fairly new idea, culturally speaking.
Historically, it was about economics, security, especially for females, as well as procreation. Also about alliances
Not love.
The idea of marriage and “romance”, in terms of human history, is very new
Historically, it was about economics, security, especially for females, as well as procreation. Also about alliances
Not love.
The idea of marriage and “romance”, in terms of human history, is very new
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Aulef
Guest
Humans laws may change over time as long as they don’t contradict natural an divine laws and are fit to a certain culture.
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OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
In an age where 12 years old led armies and/or countries? I am not too shocked they were allowed to marry…
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1ke
Guest
The current culture has artificially extended and expanded “childhood”. One need only look to the indigenous tribes in South America and Africa, the nomadic tribes in Asia and the Middle East who are living in traditional pre industrial ways to see that a 12 year old is not a child in those cultures.
They are in our culture.
They are in our culture.
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petra22
Guest
Only God is unchangeable. Same yesterday, today and forever…
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LeonardoArruda
Guest
12 year olds usualy marry other 12 year olds, Mary the Mother of God was between 12-16 and Joseph was well, Joseph was older than Mary if i am not mistaken, back then people were not expected to live much so they had to achive maturity much early, they only get married when they chose (if it was forced then the marrige was not valid and the Church tells that at least 5 times at an wedding), and if you didnt have the maturity of a today-equivalent-of-a-20-year-old at the age of 12 back then, life would be much harder, Mary’s parents died very early becuse they were old, Mary had to grow up fast to catch up with the harsh reality that she lived.
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Freddy
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I’m sure it makes a difference if your daughter"s father runs a farm or a factory. But…no. Actually it makes no difference at all. Why would you think so?Freddy:
Sure do, but that’s not relevant. In our society twelve is too young, and even if it weren’t she wasn’t ready at that age (nor is she now at 22). But she has friends who certainly had the emotional, mental and spiritual maturity to get married when they were sixteen, which in the US would currently be considered insanely young.
But in a pre-industrial agrarian society twelve might not be too young for some individuals even if most would wait longer.
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Lea101
Guest
Yes, mostly, but procreation requires sex. We basically had 12 year olds having sex with older people, and that wasn’t seen as wrong. On top of it all, marital rape is mostly acknowledged and recognised only in recent times.
Same here. According to some stats though, it was apparently rare for girls that young to be married off in Europe (can’t remember the time periods though). Not that it changes your point because clearly enough people thought 12 was old enough.
I know people bring up culture, but as Catholics I thought we are supposed to put aside arguments of relativism, especially when we’re talking about children being involved in sexual acts. I would think all of us would agree that children being married/involved in sexual activities is a huge no. And even when things are counter cultural, the church should be against it.
I would hope that God would have ensured the protection of young children especially in terms of abuse and sex in church law. Like age gap restrictions or something like that? We have informed consent, but i dont think that actually deterred children from refusing since marriage was an economic proposition
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neophyte
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Why would you think that has anything to do with what I actually said?
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