Does it bother anyone else the marriageable age was 12 before?

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Somewhat recently I’ve learned that the marriageable age for girls in the past, according to Canon Law, was 12. I’ve been trying to wriggle my way around this but it bothers me too much that the Church wouldn’t consider it a sin to take marry and take the virginity of a 12-year-old.
It’s a dangerous thing to try to apply our 21st century ideas to people who lived centuries ago. Firstly, consider that the idea of having a “childhood” and “teenage years” as an extension of childhood is relatively recent. In the past children were not regarded in the way they are now. Consider that as recently as the early 1900s, children were expected to go out and do a full day’s work. I’m not saying this was a good thing, just that nobody had thought about this and done studies into human development and psychology that showed that this was bad. You’ll find that the Church, throughout the centuries, was generally quick to embrace new scientific discoveries and psychological developments, once they were well reasoned out. When the idea of childhood and the need for it, became recognised, obviously the Church affirmed the wisdom of this and changed its laws.

If you read Romeo and Juliet, you’ll see that Romeo was about 15/16 and Juliet was 14. The play gives a good idea of how marriageable age was viewed back then. Juliet was considered to be “maybe too young for marriage, but not quite”. And her father’s famous line was “younger than her are happy brides made” so we get the impression that this was just the norm at the time.
 
I think I’m more bothered by how it is apparently getting to the point where, in these days and in this country (USA), 25 is seen (by some) as not a marriageable age.

Dan
 
I didn’t get close to the situation but remember the impression of ickiness
To make things more icky, there are actually forums out there encouraging men in their 30s/40s to date women who are around 18, because they would be more willing to submit and put up with their nonsense 🤢 legal, but predatory.
 
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Freddy:
I’m sure it makes a difference if your daughter"s father runs a farm or a factory. But…no. Actually it makes no difference at all.
Why would you think that has anything to do with what I actually said?
Because you said that in pre-industrial societies twelve might not be too young.
 
I know people bring up culture, but as Catholics I thought we are supposed to put aside arguments of relativism, especially when we’re talking about children being involved in sexual acts.
Children is a very imprecise word. We’re talking about post-pubescent young adults. And this has nothing to do with moral relativism.
 
I thought we are supposed to put aside arguments of relativism, especially when we’re talking about children being involved in sexual acts.
Except that this wouldn’t have been seen as “children being involved in sexual acts”.
It would be seen as “wife having sex with her husband”.
In a culture where she wouldn’t be seen as a child, but have the rights and responsibilities of an adult.
 
Except that this wouldn’t have been seen as “children being involved in sexual acts”.
It would be seen as “wife having sex with her husband”.
Both can be true if a 12 year old is the wife or husband.
In a culture where she wouldn’t be seen as a child, but have the rights and responsibilities of an adult
That’s my point though. The psyche/biology of children isn’t like today’s adults anyway. Giving birth as a 12 year old is very different than giving birth as a 25 year old.

If there’s a 12 year old in 2020 who’s extremely mature, more so than anyone here, I would hope that they are still protected by the law. I can’t imagine it not being immoral to marry them off. Or fight in wars, as that has been brought up.

The difference between a child and adult isn’t that gray, especially when we’re talking about 12 year olds, tbh. The main reason why they were treated like adults was because their dignity as children wasn’t recognised. It was only when a couple of wise men realised that children are different was when we decided to treat them decently.
 
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enough people thought 12 was old enough.
Because it is. Puberty is the onset of the ability to reproduce.
but as Catholics I thought we are supposed to put aside arguments of relativism
Culture and moral relativity are not the same thing.

Although culture can falsely shape beliefs, as it’s done here where the current culture is shaping your belief about the objective morality of the age of marriage. It is not objectively immoral after the onset of puberty. Canon law establishes a minimum age under which marriage would be invalid without dispensation. As culture changes that minimum age might change. There’s a difference between what is objectively moral or immoral versus what is deemed prudent in a particular time and place.
I would think all of us would agree that children being married/involved in sexual activities is a huge no.
I don’t think all of us agree on what is now, and what was in past ages, a child. It is not intrinsically immoral for a person who has reached puberty to engage in sexual relations.
 
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Freddy:
Because you said that in pre-industrial societies twelve might not be too young.
Yes. Which is not what you responded to.
This is what you said:

“But in a pre-industrial agrarian society twelve might not be too young for some individuals even if most would wait longer.”

That’s what I responded to. Your implication that an agrarian society has different concepts of consent to an industrial one. Why do you think that might be so?
 
Your implication that an agrarian society has different concepts of consent to an industrial one. Why do you think that might be so?
I don’t think there was any implication regarding consent. Rather, prudential judgment
 
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I know people bring up culture, but as Catholics I thought we are supposed to put aside arguments of relativism, especially when we’re talking about children being involved in sexual acts. I would think all of us would agree that children being married/involved in sexual activities is a huge no. And even when things are counter cultural, the church should be against it.
If you read the link I posted above, the issue is that society’s idea of what constitutes a “child” has changed over time. Centuries ago, a 12-year-old - boy as well as girl - would have been considered an adult if he or she showed they were ready and able to take on the responsibilities of an adult in society. Many people did not even know their exact age/ date of birth, and civil laws were generally not age-based.

It seems like those who complain about past cultture’s belief on this issue think that all generations had the same concept of childhood that we do today, when actually the idea of childhood as an extended time of learning that went past puberty didn’t start emerging till the 17th and 18th century and took a while to filter through all cultures. The Church was also a big part of this because many saints realized that young men and young women, even those who were married, needed more education both in moral and spiritual matters and in basic skills, and set out to provide that education, often to people who were poor and would not have had the opportunity otherwise. Numerous people have been canonized based in part on their dedication to educating and protecting the young.
 
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I’m not saying we should be marrying off 12 year olds nowadays.

I’m just saying that you have to look at the larger picture of why this happened and how cultures evolve over long scales.

Almost every culture just naturally has a taboo against sex with pre pubescent children. Healthy people simply don’t find kids sexually attractive .

Hunter gatherer societies generally marry as soon as the girl menstruates, but due to the harshness of that life, menarche might not happen until 14 or even 15.
As society’s food source becomes more stable, the age of menarche drops. So an agrarian girl may be more mature at a younger age than a hunter gatherer girl.

Of course, there are other factors that tie into maturity, and a lot of them are culture-based which is why I don’t think we should go back 🙂
 
Puberty is the onset of the ability to reproduce.
Key is onset of the ability to reproduce. 12 year olds face more complications in pregnancy than women in their 20s.

Puberty doesn’t correlate with intelligence/maturity as well. Your daughter would be the same girl as she was the day before she got her period.

I also believe women experience puberty much earlier today than in the past, according to a quick search. So what’s the point of 12? That’s the part I’m grappling with.
It is not intrinsically immoral for a person who has reached puberty to engage in sexual relations.
The thread is about the specific age. Are you saying this because there’s something about the Church specifying that the children needed to have gone through puberty?

Would you say it’s not intrinsically immoral for a 13 year old girl to have consensual sex with a 27 year old man? Not saying this to antagonise you but just to see your reasoning.

My posts are basically saying that I don’t see why the Church says it’s not intrinsically immoral, not where it is or it isn’t. Trust me, I know the Church is OK with 15 year olds engaging in sexual activities
 
As usual there are a lot of misconceptions about these matters.

Although the minimum age was 12, that was not a common marriage age by any stretch during the vast majority of European history. Average age of first marriage for a woman was 20-25 in most countries. Very young girls getting married was primairly a phenomenon among the noble classes. Childbirth at age 12 has always been very unadvisable, in fact most 12-year old are not fertile even today (average age of menarche is 13, and was probably about a year later in pre-modern times).

Average life expectancy, however, had very little to do with this. It is true that the life expectancy was about 35 years in pre-industrial Europe, but that does NOT mean that 30 years was considered ”late in life”. The short life expectancy was partly due to high infant mortality, but even more so because people died of various infectious diseases throughout their lives. One was not considered elderly until age 60 or 70, an age which most people indeed did not achieve.
 
I also believe women experience puberty much earlier today than in the past, according to a quick search. So what’s the point of 12? That’s the part I’m grappling with.
Again, did you read the article I posted about the evolution of age-based consent laws?
 
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Freddy:
Your implication that an agrarian society has different concepts of consent to an industrial one. Why do you think that might be so?
I don’t think there was any implication regarding consent. Rather, prudential judgment
So let’s say that it was proposed that 12 is not too young in an agrarian society to make a ‘prudential judgement’ regarding consent. But could be in an industrial one.
 
Absolutely not. Most 12 year olds who got married were girls married to older boys or men. Most such matches were between aristocratic people, amongst whom a man had to prove himself worthy in some way before anyone would want their daughter to marry him. In the rare case that such a young girl was to get married among the common people, her future husband still had to have to means to provide for her, which most men didn’t until about the age of 20.
 
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