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georgemiller
Guest
Does any good love exist in He’ll? Does God still love those that are in He’ll?
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pianistclare
Guest
Why the apostrophe?
Hell is the absence of good and love.
Conversely, I don’t think ever stops loving anyone. But you asked if there is love IN hell. I would say no. :twocents:
Hell is the absence of good and love.
Conversely, I don’t think ever stops loving anyone. But you asked if there is love IN hell. I would say no. :twocents:
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Beryllos
Guest
In the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), the rich man in Hell wants to warn his brothers, lest they come to that place too. His desire for their good seems to be a manifestation of love.
po18guy
Well-known member
Wondering that myself, since hell is a doctrine of the Church.
God is love and love is a good. Therefore, there can be no love in hell, because God and His influence are not in hell. Hell is the absence of good, thus the absence of love.
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fred_conty
Guest
It isn’t that God’s love is absent, but rather those experiencing hell are absent of love. If they could change and be sorry then it would all change for them. But the problem is that in eternity there can’t be change because there is no time. So those in hell are locked into hate.
A large problem of understanding hell is that it is in eternity and not in time. Eternity is a state where there is no change. What is, is what it is, forever outside of time. That is why hellions cannot repent.
In the Gospels Jesus constantly reminds us that it is now the time to repent and be saved. And that once he returns, or the bridgroom comes, it is too late to repent, so that there is knashing of teeth and suffering once a person passes from time over into the eternal state if they are not ready for Christ’s comming.
To say it is horrible is an extreme under-estimation because love will remain an unknown word to hellions.
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mikekle
Guest
The problem is, for there to be gnashing of teeth, that takes time to happen, for one to suffer, that also requires passage of some kind of time.
Since the man was in hell and was asking for permission to go warn his relatives, that implies he remembered his earthly life, meaning he retained knowledge, retained love, or at least concern for other people.
If he was truly in a place without love, I dont see how he could even feel any love or concern for anyone in his past life, or even remember it for that matter.
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Ad_Orientem
Guest
God’s love isn’t like ours. We love the object based on qualities it possesses (beauty, goodness, intelligence, etc); God, on the other hand, in loving the object, gives it those qualities, its very being in fact. If God did not love the damned, they would cease to exist. I realize there are those who say they would prefer not to exist than to suffer torments forever, but whatever people think they want, it remains true that existence is in itself a good, as it is a reflection of God who is pure being.
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ffg
Guest
‘God’s love’ is a term to explain ‘why’ creation is.
Thus where there is creation, God loves it.
Do creatures in Hell reflect that love?
I would guess not, as step 1 to doing so is freely rejected by the entrant, which would seem to be why they are there.
Step one in reflecting the Love of God, is ACCEPTING the love of God.
Which a creature in Hell, does not.
How beautiful is time eh? It’s never too late for step 1.
Take care,
Mike
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fred_conty
Guest
That’s a good point you made … about someone carring for others when they are in hell. If there is no love there, then how could this happen?
When Jesus speaks in parables he is making a specific point. But in doing so he sometimes says other things in the parable that don’t seem to sound quite right. Like the hiring of workers in the vineyard at different hours of the day and still paying them all the same wage. Was the point about the wage or was there some other point that Jesus was making and in so doing the circumstances limped somewhat.
The same with the parable about the cursing of the fig tree. Some have some questions about that one too. But the punch line is that those who don’t bear fruit, or do good, can expect the same end as the fig tree. Even tho it looks kinda bad to treat the poor fig tree thata way. Or maybe Jesus could have gotten his point across using some other story.
So the point of all parables is that they make “a” point and the other circumstances are there to fill in the story tho they are not the point of the story and are not to be judged in the usual sense.
The “point” of the the story is called literal interpretation, or it is “litteraly” the point. What is the “literal” point of this story? Once in hell always in hell because there is a deep wide gorge between heaveners and hellions that cannot be bridged.
“Gnashing of teeth” is just a way of helping to understand hate. When a person grinds their teeth at someone else, it means they hate them. But there is no litteral “gnashing” but there is a litteral hate.
But suffering itself does not take the passage of time. Because being in eternity means “no time”. It is like when we will see God face to face which implies that no thoughts stand between God and the saint. The saint’s mind knows God directly without thought. NO thinking goes on thru our thought processes, but the saint knows imediately what God sees. Again, thoughts now take time, and but there is no time when in eternity.
Maybe the rich man’s intentions really wasn’t about his concern for someone else, but a way of saying that it really isn’t fair that he wound up in hell. If only God had sent someone directly to warn him he would have known. It was a “cop out” denying he was really to blame for his wrong doing and it was really God’s fault for not doing a better job. Jesus’ reply was that he did his job but the rich man didn’t do his. So my own take on this is that the rich man was not about love but about excuses.
Memory on the other hand stores bits and pieces of info to be recalled at a later time. There is no time in eternity. What we know in heaven will be exactly from what God knows. This is a mystery … face to face.
What we know and how we see it will be quite different in heaven than what we are use to in our present condition. We can understand it to some degree, but the experience will be totally new to us. “The eye has not seen nor the ear heard the wonderful things God has prepared for those who love him.” … St. Paul.
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FrancescaMaria
Guest
That is precisely I was always taught (and confirmed of it in recent homily) that the rich man was in Purgatory. If he were in hell, he would not be able to communicate with God and send loving and caring thoughts to his brothers.
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Beryllos
Guest
Fred Conty, that makes sense, that the rich man’s concern wasn’t so much for his brothers as for himself, and that the parable is a literary form for teaching simple folk and therefore leaves out (or takes liberties with) details which are not essential to the lesson.
Francesca Maria, the Purgatory interpretation seems to go against other details, like the grave injustice committed by the rich man, and the great chasm that can never be crossed.
In any case, this parable leaves room for lively discussion.
Francesca Maria, the Purgatory interpretation seems to go against other details, like the grave injustice committed by the rich man, and the great chasm that can never be crossed.
In any case, this parable leaves room for lively discussion.
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FrancescaMaria
Guest
Yes, I agree that there is definitely room for different interpretations. I am not educated in Scripture and have no theological background. I only know from Homilies on this reading that I heard. The priest always said that the rich man was in Purgatory also because he was sorry for his sins and remorse cannot come without God’s grace and God does not send His grace to hell. Also, the rich man was pleading for his brothers, and souls in hell do not/cannot pray for us.
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Beryllos
Guest
Indeed.
With God all things are possible. (Matthew 19:26)
Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good. His love endures forever. (Psalm 126:1)
(Some translations say his mercy endures forever.)
With God all things are possible. (Matthew 19:26)
Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good. His love endures forever. (Psalm 126:1)
(Some translations say his mercy endures forever.)
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paduard
Guest
Very good point methinks; especially the quote from Matthew.
Thanks for that.
paduard
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Gorgias
Guest
Hmm… I don’t recall him expressing sorrow for his sins in the parable. Sad that he’s being punished? Absolutely! But no sorrow for the way he treated Lazarus – in fact, he still doesn’t get it: he asks Abraham to treat Lazarus as a slave and send him out of heaven to run errands for him and his brothers!
I tend to think of it as another expression of self-interest: it’s all about my needs, and my family’s needs. A charitable request would have been “can you send someone from your side to everyone, so that no one ends up here where I am?” But, that’s not what he asks, is it…?
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FrancescaMaria
Guest
Well, he still had a long way to go, that’s for sure. But don’t we all?Hmm… I don’t recall him expressing sorrow for his sins in the parable. Sad that he’s being punished? Absolutely! But no sorrow for the way he treated Lazarus – in fact, he still doesn’t get it: he asks Abraham to treat Lazarus as a slave and send him out of heaven to run errands for him and his brothers!
I tend to think of it as another expression of self-interest: it’s all about my needs, and my family’s needs. A charitable request would have been “can you send someone from your side to everyone, so that no one ends up here where I am?” But, that’s not what he asks, is it…?
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mikekle
Guest
If it was really all about him, why did he not take this probably very rare opportunity when he has Gods ear, to ask God to remove HIM from hell or wherever he is at the time?Hmm… I don’t recall him expressing sorrow for his sins in the parable. Sad that he’s being punished? Absolutely! But no sorrow for the way he treated Lazarus – in fact, he still doesn’t get it: he asks Abraham to treat Lazarus as a slave and send him out of heaven to run errands for him and his brothers!
I tend to think of it as another expression of self-interest: it’s all about my needs, and my family’s needs. A charitable request would have been “can you send someone from your side to everyone, so that no one ends up here where I am?” But, that’s not what he asks, is it…?
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davidv
Guest
Because he didn’t want to be with God?
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Gorgias
Guest
If he were in Purgatory, then perhaps that would’ve been his request: “hasn’t it been enough, God? Can’t I leave now?” … But, if he were in hell (as I believe the story is attempting to tell us), then he’d have known that he was in his eternal abode – and therefore, he only asked for relief, not rescue.
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Gorgias
Guest
If there were anything that suggested that he repented while alive on earth, I’d be with you. But that just isn’t in the narrative. So, there’s really nothing there that suggests that it was purgatory (and a whole bunch that leads us to think he was in hell). If so, then that means he didn’t have a ‘long way’ – he was already at his destination! :sad_yes:
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