Does Man make God's message to complex?

[ALLFORHIM]

Royal Mess/Mangling: Multiple denominations, multiple interpretations of scripture of which Catholic Church is 1 of many. Traditions that may or may not have biblical backing. Catholics killing Protestants, and vice versa, etc.

Straightforward Messages: See my original post.

All over the place: All Christians believe in Jesus Christ and what he stood for which is overall the right direction. However, because of the many different ways Christians worship Christ, and each denomination thinking the others are all wrong, even to calling each other Heretics at times.

Being judgemental: No, not quoting from the CCC, at least not directly. Again I’m talking about one denomination condemning another. Catholics condemning other Catholics, etc. You see it all the time on this board, as well as on other Christian boards. God provides the ultimate judgement, period.

Does this help clarify my thoughts and frustration a little bit?

Hi,
Im with you Mike. Christians from all walks of life do things slightly different and bam you are doing it wrong. I was never catholic but I have been to many a Mass and I dont find anything wrong with theway they worship. Yes it is a little boring for me but just because I dont particularly like the style Im not going to say the CC is wrong. We have a praise band–so what–that doesnt make our worship any less of worship does it–NO.
I believe Jesus did leave us a much simpler message then we make it out to be. Humans just need to intellectualize, rationalize and rules up the wazoo because that seems to be human nature. Oh well, I just keep striving to follow Christ the best way I know how–to keep studying the Word that was left for us:thumbsup:

 

[Thoughtful]

Yes it is a little boring for me but just because I dont particularly like the style Im not going to say the CC is wrong. :

I would hate to think that we belong to a particular church based on “style.” How many protestants shop around because they don’t like the pastor’s style?.

.

Humans just need to intellectualize, rationalize and rules up the wazoo because that seems to be human nature. :

I think human nature actually likes simplicity, however we live in a complex world that demands complex answers. I would highly suggest re-reading post #11 by Scylla.

Oh well, I just keep striving to follow Christ the best way I know how–to keep studying the Word that was left for us:thumbsup:

I think I’m just going to keep striving to follow Christ His way.

 

[Thoughtful]

Im not going to say the CC is wrong.

So if it’s not wrong (which many of your posts contradict by the way), why don’t you become Catholic?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

So if it’s not wrong (which many of your posts contradict by the way), why don’t you become Catholic?

Hi,
I would have got back to you sooner but I forgot which thread this was on.

I still have to many differences in doctrine/dogma that I cannot reconcile.
If you want to know which ones just go through all the ones that have already been mentioned to death.

 

[Thoughtful]

Hi,
I would have got back to you sooner but I forgot which thread this was on.

I still have to many differences in doctrine/dogma that I cannot reconcile.
If you want to know which ones just go through all the ones that have already been mentioned to death.

No problemo

Yes, I’ve read many of your posts

But, let me ask you, as a Protestant, do you honestly think that** all** faiths - irrelevant of style - have the fullness of faith especially since many view such essentials as Baptism and the Eucharist differently.

I’m going to take a guess…correct me if I’m wrong…but you’d say that they’re not all equal. And you defend your position with all the resources you have. I haven’t seen many wishy-washy posts from you!

If you disagreed with something your pastor said and he was uncompromising with his position and had the backing of others, would you

(a) change your affiliation?
(b) stay and try to change the pastor and/or get others on your side?
(c) do your own thing anyway and misrepresent what your church believes?
(e) try to convince yourself that it dosen’t matter?

I really look forward to your response!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

No problemo

Yes, I’ve read many of your posts

But, let me ask you, as a Protestant, do you honestly think that** all** faiths - irrelevant of style - have the fullness of faith especially since many view such essentials as Baptism and the Eucharist differently.

I’m going to take a guess…correct me if I’m wrong…but you’d say that they’re not all equal. And you defend your position with all the resources you have. I haven’t seen many wishy-washy posts from you!

If you disagreed with something your pastor said and he was uncompromising with his position and had the backing of others, would you

(a) change your affiliation?
(b) stay and try to change the pastor and/or get others on your side?
(c) do your own thing anyway and misrepresent what your church believes?
(e) try to convince yourself that it dosen’t matter?

I really look forward to your response!

Hi,
You know what I dont think I could give you an honest answer other then I dont know. I have never had that happen to me before. I was raised episcopalian but I left when I was a teenager for obvious stupid teen disbelief. When I decided to look for a church, I didnt rule out the episcopal church but I just ended up to find a baptist church close to home first.

I did leave my baptist church but it was not for doctrinal differences it was because the church was dying and the church had nothing to offer anymore as far as spiritual growth(bible studies, youth group, kids programs etc.)

So, I really dont want to give you an answer to something I dont know how I would act until I am in the situation.

I hope you understand

 

[Sixtus]

Oug said:

When he disembarked and saw the vast crowd, his heart was moved with pity for them, for they were like sheep without a shepherd; and he began to teach them many things.

If we were in His shoes, we would be waving fingers, gritting our teeth and giving the crowd a damn good telling off!

I do not see our Blessed Lord doing any of those things. Yet as the Son of the God who is the chief victim of sin, He had justification to.

Yet, He did none of those things, instead, He ‘took pity on them’ and began to teach

I think we need ‘learn how to take pity’ by loving our neighbour regardless whether they are Moslem, Protestant, Catholic Hindu, etc etc. Ultimately,we are not commissioned by Christ to insult, we are commissioned only to love

 

[Nicene]

Of course he came down to give a message. The message being, I’ve died so your sins can be forgiven and here is how I’d like you all to live your lives to obtain salvation. However, I think, as man we have made that very simple message way to complex with everything else thats been added over the many years.

BTW, your verbage is a little lacking in taste. Was that necessary?

No, that’s what he did for us. his message was:

34: A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

30: and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

and:

21: He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."

Those commandments are spread throughout the gospel, but mainly look to Mt 5-7. However God didn’t give us all those words, spoken by Christ and the apostles, from Mt to Rev., just for filler.

But now we keep them because:

25: But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.

Sacred scripture isn’t a single quip to get to heaven, that’s the easy and wide road. Jesus taught us much more than that.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[newbie1234]

You are right, man does make it complex and the reason for that is, man is sinful.

Jesus came and taught truth, such as, that He is God.
Being that He is God the only way to worship Him is not with just prayer, studying the Bible, a good sermon or singing. That all is good and points us to the proper center, but without the center it is not worship it is just love and obedience.
The center is Jesus being offered up in Sacrifice for our sins on the Cross, we Catholics do that at Mass since we cannot offer anything of ourselves.

Now along comes a guy named Arty, he denies that Jesus is God and therefore starts to change the truth of God, so the Church that Jesus started needs to defend truth by making a creed so that everyone is sure of what is truth and what not to deny.
Now along comes along some guy, lets call him Marty L. He thinks his own way and wants to change things. Now in order to defend truth the Church Jesus established has to define specifics more,
these sinful people come along for 2000 years and keep trying to make up new belief systems. So instead of just one consistant simple truth, you have one consistant truth that has needed to defend truth for 2000 years and define thousands of aspects of what Jesus taught or ignore that truth matters.

If Jesus just came here and said believe whatever you want I will die for you, then this would be ok. We could ignore all his teachings as truth wouldn’t matter to God.

But the reality is that man who is sinful has constantly rebelled, this makes for a anyone who cares about truth to have had to defend it in numerous ways. This is why the Catholic Church is so comprehensive, as it has to be if truth matters and if it has mattered for 2000 years.

Now if you live in an area where there are only Catholics lets just say some rural parish, it would be a simple faith as you would love Jesus, worship Him in the only possible way we can by offering Him up in the Sacrifice of the Mass and faithfully following Him. It would be the simplest faith.

But man just complicates it by sin. Yes I agree with you man complicates it, but that doesn’t negate the value of truth or else we believe whatever we want, and it is ok.
I could state that Jesus was married, I am one of His descendants and not be committing blasphemy, if truth didn’t matter.

In Christ
Scylla

Good post but are you assuming only marty and arty are sinful and not the leaders of the church.
I think the only reason Marty and Arty came along is because of inconsistencies that grew within the Catholic church.
Marty protested doctrine that was inconsistent with God’s Word. So who was sinful?

 

[Nicene]

Good post but are you assuming only marty and arty are sinful and not the leaders of the church.
I think the only reason Marty and Arty came along is because of inconsistencies that grew within the Catholic church.
Marty protested doctrine that was inconsistent with God’s Word. So who was sinful?

And that’s an assumption not based on fact or scripture.

The real damage was done IMHO with the man made doctrines that flourished, and continue to do so, after 1500, but mostly post 1830’s, Evangelicals, SDA’s, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses.

At least the evangelicals stayed within the trinitarian belief, but that’s about all, though they did (at least in charismatic circles) follow the Jehovah witness “believers baptism”.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Texas_Roofer]

…
I believe Jesus did leave us a much simpler message then we make it out to be. Humans just need to intellectualize, rationalize and rules up the wazoo because that seems to be human nature. …

Can I disagree with you on this? Humans like to be in charge so they like to turn, twist, or add to the message. This lets them feel some form of control. In all it results in danger as religious wars, and condemning other (which is forbidden), etc. The really sad part is by changing the message they actually give up the message.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Good post but are you assuming only marty and arty are sinful and not the leaders of the church.
I think the only reason Marty and Arty came along is because of inconsistencies that grew within the Catholic church.
Marty protested doctrine that was inconsistent with God’s Word. So who was sinful?

Arius taught that God the Father and the Son did not exist together eternally. His preaching is condemned by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. His preaching is inconsistent with God’s Word.

Martin Luther preached Faith Alone and Scripture Alone which is not supported by Scripture itself. Both were condemned by the Church.

These men taught heresies.

 

[newbie1234]

Arius taught that God the Father and the Son did not exist together eternally. His preaching is condemned by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. His preaching is inconsistent with God’s Word.

Martin Luther preached Faith Alone and Scripture Alone which is not supported by Scripture itself. Both were condemned by the Church.

These men taught heresies.

So I guess no one in the church is sinful. Especially when making doctrine.

 

[Seamus_Sully]

I think that sophistry comes in all of the time.

For myself, fear is what often directed the sophistry.

I struggled for years with understanding the literal meanings of the Bible.

Now, few problems.

The Holy Bible is easy because of the teachings of Rome.

Next, now I know that every figure of speech has a literal meaning.

Then one prays to see the other senses of Scripture, but I dumb guy like me can just look up what the Church teaches.

See I am smart enough to know I am dumb.

Oh, what is the most loving act one can do for her unborn baby?

 

[scylla]

Good post but are you assuming only marty and arty are sinful and not the leaders of the church.
I think the only reason Marty and Arty came along is because of inconsistencies that grew within the Catholic church.
Marty protested doctrine that was inconsistent with God’s Word. So who was sinful?

All were sinful, both Marty and Arty, and the people in the Church. What the mistake that Marty and Arty did was put themselves in the place of God, as only God can found a Church and only God is perfect.
So regardless of the sinfullness of the people either God taught truth and wanted us to know it or it was just a genereal truth and truth doesn’t matter.

The first position means that Salvation is always available and what Jesus taught actually mattered.

The second position means that Salvation wasn’t available and required Marty or Arty to come along and restore the truth. So truth doesn’t matter as Jesus wasn’t able to maintain it, or have it available for everyone. He required Marty or Arty to come and fix His teaching.

Either truth matters or it doesn’t.

Now if you would like to talk about doctrines which are contrary to Scripture as I can find every doctrine of the Catholic Church in the Bible.
Just like I can find every Baptist doctrine in the Bible.
Just like I can find the Rapture in the Bible.
Just like I can find Soul Sleep in the Bible.
Just like the JW’s can find their beliefs in their Bible.
It all depends on interpretation and personal finding of it in the Bible if you look at Marty and Arties position.

I would be happy to talk about the doctrine that Marty protested against, as he was never able to defend his position and publically lost a debate on it, so his position was indefensible. In addition if he was right everyone should be following Marty. This would also mean that Jesus failed and everyone immediately before Marty would go to Hell, or he wasn’t necessary.
Artie is now adhered to by a group that the majority of people do not consider to be Christians. So should we follow Artie?

In Christ
Scylla

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Can I disagree with you on this? Humans like to be in charge so they like to turn, twist, or add to the message. This lets them feel some form of control. In all it results in danger as religious wars, and condemning other (which is forbidden), etc. The really sad part is by changing the message they actually give up the message.

Yes I forgot about control. Your right about the rest as well.