Does Muhammed offer better morality than Jesus does?

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What moral standards will you apply to judge morality? I think we should apply the Islamic moral standards so I guess Islam is more moral.

Until you set the standard for morality this whole thread and question is mute!

Please restate the question with some standards that apply to both. Morality is only morality in the society that it applies to? Ok, I’m confused now???:confused:
 
Jesus offered the only true and perfect morality, one which is only possible when proceeding from a heart that loves God perfectly and in turn loves his neighbor perfectly.

Of course, Jesus knew that this true and perfect morality was only possible if the heart of man was changed from it’s nature stained with sin and it’s continued propensity to sin, into the nature of Christ himself which could only be accomplished through grace. And this grace would only be possible through Christ’s gift of Himself on Calvary, and our receipt of that great gift.

So, the difference between the morality of Islam and the morality of true Christianity is:


  1. *]The Muslim has to be moral by his own power, struggling under the influence of his sin nature, which is an impossible feat to perfectly accomplish, and God’s justice requires perfection;

    *]The true Christian is *drawn into a life of morality *(holiness), a response to God’s grace, not by the Christian’s own power but by the power of the Holy Spirit, that no man can boast of his own goodness. So the perfection of the Christian is a work of the Holy Spirit made possible by the Sacrifice of Christ, who alone could accomplish this moral perfection in order to meet God’s justice.
 
mark_a said:
Hello again Meedo,

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I am wondering what your response is to Pope Benedict’s speech yesterday that included the following:

He began his speech, which ran over half an hour, by quoting a 14th-century Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Paleologus, in a conversation with a “learned Persian” on Christianity and Islam — “and the truth of both.” “Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread the sword by the faith he preached,” the pope quoted the emperor, in a speech to 1,500 students and faculty.

For a Muslim, this is the jist of my question: Does Muhammed bring anything to the table that Jesus didn’t?

Speaking only for my own impressions of Islam, Jesus seems to be a “lesser” profit than Muhammed.

Thanks.

PS- Sorry, but I had to chop part of your above reply because it put my post over 5000 characters.
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Hello Mark,

Well, i think that i cant compare both. Simply because Prophets dont compete. They complement. Each of them has a role to do and we are ordered by the Quran to respect them all equally.

I dont believe that Muhammed is a more important prophet than Jesus is . I dont believe that Jesus was a lesser prophet. The Quran explicitly warns us against this as in the second chapter of the Quran

002.285
YUSUFALI: The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: “We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.”
PICKTHAL: The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.
SHAKIR: The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; **We make no difference between any of His messengers; **and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.

You see, muslims are people who God has sent books and revelations for people before them. The message that we have from God is explicit.

‘’ You guys are not special except that the people before you disappointed me and now i test you to bear my message to the world. If you fail you arent any better yourselves, and i will replace you with others who will carry my message’’

Muslims are not a race or chosen people. So in the light of what God has warned us from, we cant start to make the mistakes that others befroe us fell into . It is not our task to claim how great we are and how ´God has chosen us and thus we claim that our prophet is beter or mightier etc etc …

We understand that at the end of the day , its about God looking for people to carry his message , if it is Muhammed to be the last prophet then so be it. Not because he is an arab or he is special its because God has chosen him for it and thus we should follow him.

If i am sent to the time of Jesus i will be a Jesus follower. If i am sent to the time of moses i will be a moses follower.

what i am trying to say is that Islam is not a tribe or a circle of pride with an attitude of My prophet is better than yours. Muhammed is the ‘‘mean’’ not teh ‘‘goal’’ The Goal is the pleasure of the God of Abraham. So Muslims are really not interested in jesus Vs muhammed Vs moses comparison.

My belief as a muslims that all of them has done their role fully and completely and God is pleased with them all.

As for The Pope’s remarks , i think he tried to coney his own views through quoting from somebody else. But hey that is his right. ofcourse i disagree with what he says and question the truth of it. However i understand that he has urged Germany to accept and give Justice to its Muslims and to Integrate them and give them their rights.

For that i am very grateful to him. It doesnt surprise me really that he said what he said. I mean i am sure that the Pope John Paul the second had the same exact views , he just didnt voice them. However i love the man. I dont care what he thinks inside as long as he treats me kindly and justly. God will be the Judge between truth and falsity of our beliefs.

best regards

Meedo
 
Malachi4U said:
What moral standards will you apply to judge morality? I think we should apply the Islamic moral standards so I guess Islam is more moral.

Until you set the standard for morality this whole thread and question is mute!

Please restate the question with some standards that apply to both. Morality is only morality in the society that it applies to? Ok, I’m confused now???:confused:
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How about using God’s two great commandments as the standard.
 
Damascus said:
Good point. My answer to that is that is to ask yourself this-

Love is our “Job description” as Christians.

Justice is God’s duty to enforce alone. From the Christian perspective.

If you equate Justice with Islam, as you did in your earlier post, you have to ask yourself if Islam has the right to dispense Justice or if they don’t have the right to dispense it.

Where does God fit in with Islam if he is being cut out of his Job description?

Just a thought.
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Muslims have al- Qur’an. Literally “A discourse in Arabic”, that is to say, God has written them a letter laying out in fine detail exactly what is expected of them and how to behave. They are in no doubt as to where God is for them.
 
naroad said:
Muslims I know have no sparkle in their eyes or aura of holiness, no matter how devout or fastidious in their mechanical religious practices they have no sanctifying grace in them, there are no sacraments to give it to them.
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I can certainly see some truth in your post here, but your knowledge is limited. Have you ever heard of Sufiism? I have heard it said that Islam would have died out long ago were it not for this Christian inspired Spiritual Renewal. I would urge you to read some of the writings of Sufi adept Rabi’a al-Adawiya, the famous freed woman of Basra.

Also consider that scholars widely consider the sura of Light 24:35 one of the most celebrated passages in all mystical literature.
 
Thanks Meedo.
meedo said:
Hello Mark,

You see, muslims are people who God has sent books and revelations for people before them. The message that we have from God is explicit.

‘’ You guys are not special except that the people before you disappointed me and now i test you to bear my message to the world. If you fail you arent any better yourselves, and i will replace you with others who will carry my message’’

Muslims are not a race or chosen people. So in the light of what God has warned us from, we cant start to make the mistakes that others befroe us fell into . It is not our task to claim how great we are and how ´God has chosen us and thus we claim that our prophet is beter or mightier etc etc …

We understand that at the end of the day , its about God looking for people to carry his message , if it is Muhammed to be the last prophet then so be it. Not because he is an arab or he is special its because God has chosen him for it and thus we should follow him.

If i am sent to the time of Jesus i will be a Jesus follower. If i am sent to the time of moses i will be a moses follower.
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I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression Islam believes that Muhammed was the last prophet. Is this incorrect? If a new prophet were required, how would Muslims know?

Has Islam had any heretics who claimed to be a new prophet?
If so, how were they dealt with?
 
mark_a said:
Thanks Meedo.

I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression Islam believes that Muhammed was the last prophet. Is this incorrect? If a new prophet were required, how would Muslims know?
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You’re quite correct, Muslims believe Muhammed was the last prophet and the revealer of God’s message to mankind (al-Qu’ran). They interpret this from a passage in the Qur’an which refers to Muhammed as the Seal of the Prophets (Khatam-an-Nabiyyin) a title given to Muhammad by a verse in the Qur’an 33:40
Has Islam had any heretics who claimed to be a new prophet?
If so, how were they dealt with?
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Mirza Ghulam Ahmad founded the Ahmadiyya sect of Islam and claimed to be the Mahdi. They believe Muhammed was the last ‘law giving’ prophet. Ahmad, much like Jesus, taught love and tolerance.
 
I think it’s pretty meaningless when Muslims say they believe any of Jesus’ teachings, even as a “prophet”. This is because they don’t pay any real attention to what Jesus actually said. It’s only a bunch of baseless allegations by Mohammed about what the “real Jesus” must have taught because it MUST have matched the Quran.

Basically, the Muslims’ “Jesus” is a hollow strawman of the original constructed for the sole purpose of gaining converts.
 
FightingFat said:
I can certainly see some truth in your post here, but your knowledge is limited. Have you ever heard of Sufiism? I have heard it said that Islam would have died out long ago were it not for this Christian inspired Spiritual Renewal. I would urge you to read some of the writings of Sufi adept Rabi’a al-Adawiya, the famous freed woman of Basra.

Also consider that scholars widely consider the sura of Light 24:35 one of the most celebrated passages in all mystical literature.
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AKA- “whirling Dirvish” I have a DVD if you want it. It is simillar to Charasmatic but in the extreeme hysteria induced form that goes beyond reason and it is unlikely one will gain an ounce of valuable knowledge from studiying such hogwash.
 
Re: Heretics in Islam

Are the radical terrorists included in the list? They claim to be following the faith, Islam claims they are violating it- Sounds like they are following “another gospel” or at minimum interpreting it in their own way-
Does this constitute heresy in Islam?
 
mark_a said:
I’m not sure I understand the question.
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You said “common sense answers would be nice”, I see the first command here as geared toward earthly ends and which man natually sees as fair and just, while the second command is geared towrads heavenely ends and goes against man’s natural reasoning:
Jesus: "You have heard that it was said,
‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
But I say to you,
Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
-St Matthew 5:43-47
​
Does the Koran teach to love your enemy?..and pray for those who persecute you? If it does then it brought nothing new, if it doesnt then its less than what Jesus taught. Jesus preached this in 30AD and shows us morality is progressive, we are held to higher standards that what was previously revealed. The whole chapter of Matt 5 could be quoted for more on this.
 
I personally have no problem if a Muslim says :

i believe in Muhammad even if Jesus was better

But to read a Muslim saying that Muhammad and Jesus are equal in morality and teachings, then this is an insult to our intelligence :

First cuz what Jesus taught **CONTRADICTS **Muhammad( btwthe Quran does NOT speak of Jesus’ teachings ( wonder why?:rolleyes: )

Second, Jesus’ life **CONTRADICTS **Muhammad’s.

One can say, yea whatever i choose Muhammad. But saying they were equal is an insult cuz the were the exact opposite.

Now we read this claim :

in Islam we don’t differentiate between prophets. Fine, in Christianity as well we don’t say Moses was better than Isaiah or Daniel or anyone. **BUT ** to give a blind eye on the difference between Jesus’ **TEACHINGS ** ( i will not talk about behavior) and Muhammad’s teachings and claim equality is beyond absurdity. MUHAMMAD CONTRADICTS JESUS IN BOTH TEACHINGS AND WORK.THEY CAN’T BE FROM THE SAME GOD.
Muslim can pick Muhammad and nobody cares. But insulting Jesus by saying He taught what Muhammad taught is UNACCEPTABLE.

and NO. “Corrupt” Christians could not have rejected polygamy or easy divorce. “Corrupt” Christians could not have chosen an a-sexual heaven.“Corrupt Christians” would not say NO to eye to eye behaviour. If Christians indeed corrupted the word of God, then we’d surely have found : polygamy, easy divorce, sexual heaven, sex with married slaves, looting, stoning, killing, eye for eye ecc…after all, they were corrupt people !! you’d expect this from corrupt people who care about themselves more than God’s word !! all these things match perfectly well with sinful nature and what “corrupt” men prefer…God does not compromise our sinful nature with His Holiness.

What we find in Quran and hadith and Sunna CONTRADICT Jesus’ teachings. To say otherwise is mere hypocrisy.
 
Damascus said:
Re: Heretics in Islam

Are the radical terrorists included in the list? They claim to be following the faith, Islam claims they are violating it- Sounds like they are following “another gospel” or at minimum interpreting it in their own way-
Does this constitute heresy in Islam?
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Yes. Their faith would be incompatable with Islam.
 
inJESUS said:
I personally have no problem if a Muslim says :

i believe in Muhammad even if Jesus was better

But to read a Muslim saying that Muhammad and Jesus are equal in morality and teachings, then this is an insult to our intelligence :

First cuz what Jesus taught **CONTRADICTS **Muhammad( btwthe Quran does NOT speak of Jesus’ teachings ( wonder why?:rolleyes: )

Second, Jesus’ life **CONTRADICTS **Muhammad’s.

One can say, yea whatever i choose Muhammad. But saying they were equal is an insult cuz the were the exact opposite.

Now we read this claim :

in Islam we don’t differentiate between prophets. Fine, in Christianity as well we don’t say Moses was better than Isaiah or Daniel or anyone. **BUT **to give a blind eye on the difference between Jesus’ **TEACHINGS **( i will not talk about behavior) and Muhammad’s teachings and claim equality is beyond absurdity. MUHAMMAD CONTRADICTS JESUS IN BOTH TEACHINGS AND WORK.THEY CAN’T BE FROM THE SAME GOD.
Muslim can pick Muhammad and nobody cares. But insulting Jesus by saying He taught what Muhammad taught is UNACCEPTABLE.

and NO. “Corrupt” Christians could not have rejected polygamy or easy divorce. “Corrupt” Christians could not have chosen an a-sexual heaven.“Corrupt Christians” would not say NO to eye to eye behaviour. If Christians indeed corrupted the word of God, then we’d surely have found : polygamy, easy divorce, sexual heaven, sex with married slaves, looting, stoning, killing, eye for eye ecc…after all, they were corrupt people !! you’d expect this from corrupt people who care about themselves more than God’s word !! all these things match perfectly well with sinful nature and what “corrupt” men prefer…God does not compromise our sinful nature with His Holiness.

What we find in Quran and hadith and Sunna CONTRADICT Jesus’ teachings. To say otherwise is mere hypocrisy.
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Do you think a reasonable Muslim could argue against your assertions here?
:hmmm:
 
meedo said:
Hello All,

My Opinion as a muslim would be that Muhammed taught the same morality as Jesus ,Peace be upon them all .

The reason i think that is because they are prophets from teh same God.
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No, they are not. Christ is God. Muhammed is not a real prophet. IMO, Islam is merely something of a Judeo-Christian Heresy.
However , Jesus had different missions than Muhammed. he was sent to believing people but ones who need reformation. He was not assigned to bring his message to the whole world but to the people of Israel.

This is a major difference.
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Of course, you are wrong. Christianity, the only true religion, is for the whole world. But since Christianity and Islam are the two major world-wide evangelizing religions, they are going to clash with one another.
 
SPH1 said:
No, they are not. Christ is God. Muhammed is not a real prophet. IMO, Islam is merely something of a Judeo-Christian Heresy.

here’s the evidence for Arabic speaking brothers:

muhammadanism.com/haddad/nazaritic_mission/quran_nazaritic_mission_1.pdf

muhammadanism.com/haddad/nazaritic_mission/quran_nazaritic_mission_2.pdf

Muhammad said he confirms the Nasara…Muslims think the nasara are Christians…but they’re not.

This book traces the origin of Nasara, how they started, why, what they believed in , how they ended up in Jijaz and Mecca and that Waraqa Ben Nawfal, Muhammad’s teacher was their Chief priest…all this using Quranic verses, Ahadith, Sira Nabawiyya and Biblical history.
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Jesus and Muhammed were both peaceful men but the way they gained converts were different. In my history book, it says that Muhammed led a huge army of men to the city in which he wanted to convert and the people were forced to submit. On the contrast, Jesus healed people to gain converts. He never forced anybody to convert, but he warned of the consequences of those who did not.

Jesus taught that God was a God of mercy and compassion, as well as justice. I think Unlike Muhammed, Jesus said we could call God Father. He stressed repentance but never sent an army to try to convert them.

Jesus is the Son of God!
 
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