Does Perfect Charity save the non-Believer?

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Yes, there was a ruling of the Magisterium on this matter:

Here is the link:

ww.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html…
Now I and many others have alot of problems with this non-binding speculative theological article, but since the Magistarium at this time allows folks to speculate on the matter, I won’t chastize you for that. I will, however chastise you for it’s obvious misuse. :tsktsk:

It is clear from this article itself that your claiming “limbo is gone” is utterly false.
… Limbo is gone; give us something else
And quoting from the article…"It is clear that the traditional teaching on this topic has concentrated on the theory of limbo, understood as a state which includes the souls of infants who die subject to original sin and without baptism, and who, therefore, neither merit the beatific vision, nor yet are subjected to any punishment, because they are not guilty of any personal sin. This theory, elaborated by theologians beginning in the Middle Ages, never entered into the dogmatic definitions of the Magisterium, even if that same Magisterium did at times mention the theory in its ordinary teaching up until the Second Vatican Council. It remains therefore a possible theological hypothesis."

It is further clear from this article itself that it’s speculations carry absolutely no weight with your arguments here - the premise and foundation for the question itself is entirely different: **"…However, none of the considerations proposed in this text to motivate a new approach to the question may be used to negate the necessity of baptism, nor to delay the conferral of the sacrament. Rather, there are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible to do for them that what would have been most desirable — to baptize them in the faith of the Church and incorporate them visibly into the Body of Christ."
So we see this is irrelevant to your “valiant fireman” theory - the valiant fireman
had a lifetime
to do what would have been most desireable - and necessary - i.e. baptism. Since you admit of no baptism of desire in the scenerio - your original question remains answered by the One True Church with a resounding - NO!!!

DustinsDad
 
Yes, there was a ruling of the Magisterium on this matter:
No, because the International Theological Commission is a group of 30 Catholic theologians which work as an advisory commission for the Holy See. This is not the ruling of the Church on the matter of Limbo.
Included in that statement is that God desires the salvation of all men.
Indeed. But most are still not saved.
Included in that statement is that we don’t have all the answers yet. The Church will not teach that these unbaptised infants go to hell. And Limbo is not the solution.
Indeed, limbo is not a doctrine. I never said that it is and I agree with the document on this particular matter. However, as I said, I will not believe that God has some other means of salvation for infants because there is no prove of that. Everything we know suggests that he doesn’t. I do not reject the possibility but that is in my opinion not enough to reject Limbo.
Same with my firemen. He is not saved by good works. He merited it after accepting the Actual Grace to run in to save another. To say that God held back additional graces is not proven. He merited heaven by virtue of his perfect love. Charity infused into his soul - in other words that premiere virtue which comes with sanctifying grace. He loved his neigbor perfectly, and so loved God perfectly. This was not a good work, like some kindness. When I say a perfect act of contrition it is that because of the motivation - perfect love of God. It removes my sins before absolution.
Ok, I don’t mean to sound rude, but this was answered many times. I will say it once more:
HE WAS AN ATHEIST! As an atheist HE REJECTED GOD. He DIDN’T LOVE GOD, perfectly or imperfectly.

You are contradicting yourself. Either he was touched by his grace, accepted God and his grace and through perfect love towards God, perfect contrition and at least implicit desire to be baptized he was saved (baptism of desire). Or he was an atheist.

Which one is it?
You have not stated to me that this man goes to hell, when we know God desires the salvation of all. According to you, he cannot be saved.
As an Atheist he doesn’t get saved. You said he was and atheist and I follow your terms. As I said, while God desires salvation of ALL, not many make it. This has been a unchanging message throughout the centuries. The Bible teaches it and most of the saints I know taught that. Or just read what Our Lady of Fatima said to the Children. Or simply look the world around yourself.
As for Scripture: the New Testament and the Epistles speak overwhelmingly of the need for love of neighbor. There is not enough room for me to quote to you verses on charity. Some of your verses are non-revelant. You lump perfect charity into a kindness I might do to my neighbor. The man paid a price, the perfect price: his own life to save the life of another.’
  1. Perfect charity, that is supernatural would mean that the person was not an atheist. This would contradict your previous statements.
  2. The Bible speaks about love and charity, but it doesn’t say that simply by loving and being charitable we will get saved. There is much more to that. And when it comes to supernatural charity, as you were reminded many times, you need faith.
  3. You some of my verses are not relevant. Fine, but you need to prove that.
BTW, that link will not say that the Church teaches that those unbaptized infants go to hell. Theologians are free to work on a solution, but Limbo is not it, neither is saying they go to hell the solution. Limbo is gone; give us something else.
First, you are wrong, as I’ve shown above.
Second of all, they go either to hell or heaven. Limbo is part of hell. If they don’t go to hell then they go to heaven. Does the Church teaches that unbaptized infants go to heaven? No. If she doesn’t teach that, then how can you rule out hell? You must accept the possibility of hell if we can’t believe in Limbo (as you mistakenly claim) then we must unfortunately go for the full-blown hell, which includes torments.
An athesist can’t have perfect love? Pure nonsense. Talk about your heresies…
Where does the Church teaches that an Atheist can have perfect love, which by your definition involves love to God? The burden of proof is on you.
A sinner can have perfect contrition; so can an atheist.
No, impossible. Perfect contrition is defined as sorrow for sins that rises from the love of God Who has been offended. And atheist cannot love God, Who he rejects! This is logical.
That I am saying this perfect contrition, are you saying I am saying I am saved by good works? That there is no process of grace going on here. Of course there is.
Still, he is an atheist.
 
So, our good samaritan is cast into everlasting hell fire by God for all eternity?
How can you ask that question if all we know about him is that in a parable of Jesus he saved a man? Obviously no one knows and since he is a fictional person then I guess we will never find out.

Are you suggesting that he went to heaven because he helped the dying man? :confused:
 
God can send an actual grace to anyone. He did send an actual grace to this man.

The Doctrine of Catholic Justification is as follows:

No man can have faith in Christ unless the grace of God first draw him. It is for man to accept or to reject this grace. If he accepts it, he is led on to make a true act of faith, that is, he is led by God to believe what has been divinely revealed. With this faith, he is led to hope in God and to love him, and to urn his heart away from sin. Thus, under the influence of actual grace, a soul is prepared for Justification. Hence, it is not a matter of faith only, but of faith which leads to hope and love, and genuine sorrow; yet, faith is the foundation of the whole process. All is now ready for incorporation in Christ, which will bring life to the soul.

You have kept him an atheist even though God was moving him.

You are too narrow in your perspective. But you are willing to continue in an 18th century doctrine of Limbo, which the Church, in a kind manner, has rejected.

The teaching is not in the Gospels, and is not in Tradition. Yet you cling to it, though it has no roots. You fear it is too harsh to condemn these unbaptised infants to hell. Without your Limbo that is where they are going.

To say that most men are not saved contradicts God’s will to save all men. To you, Jesus came to save only a few chosen. It is kind of like Calvin’s Predestination.

I am much broader than that. Jesus Christ is the Saviour of mankind.

peace
 
So, our good samaritan is cast into everlasting hell fire by God for all eternity?
I don’t know…Jesus didn’t tell us.

This Good Samaritan parable was in response to the question “who is my neignbor?” It tells us that even our enemies are our neighbor, and we should love them just like we’d love our best friends or cute little babies. Loving our enemies as ourselves is a sure sign of the thological virtue of charity - and it is impossible without a simultanious love of God in our hearts. So my guess is the Good Samaritan wasn’t an athiest. But again, Scripture doesn’t say and that’s not the point of the parable anway.

The answer to the question “what must I do to possess eternal life?”, just before this parable is “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself.” Your hypothetical valiant fireman is missing the first half of the equation.

DustinsDad
 
The answer to the question “what must I do to possess eternal life?”, just before this parable is “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself.” Your hypothetical valiant fireman is missing the first half of the equation.

QUOTE]

St. Thomas Aquinas has taught: perfect love of our neighbor includes perfect love of God.

He fulfills both halves of the equation. You haven’t been listening.

peace
 
To say that most men are not saved contradicts God’s will to save all men. To you, Jesus came to save only a few chosen. It is kind of like Calvin’s Predestination.
"Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!"
(Matthew 7:13-14)
 
DustinsDad;3175721:
The answer to the question “what must I do to possess eternal life?”,
just before this parable is “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself.” Your hypothetical valiant fireman is missing the first half of the equation.

St. Thomas Aquinas has taught: perfect love of our neighbor includes perfect love of God.

He fulfills both halves of the equation. You haven’t been listening.

peace
Now you’re just being obstinate. Pride is a tough nut to crack I suppose.

See ya,

DustinsDad
 
“And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his
Son to be the saviour of the world” (1John 4:14)

peace
Yep, and not everyone accepts the free gift of Salvation.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire. (Rev 20:15)

My oh my, what are they teaching you guys out in Long Beach?

Allllll Aboooooaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrd!!!

http://bestsmileys.com/aliens/10.gif

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
DustinsDad
I have to keep repeating myself. Charity is a supernatural virtue, not a natural virtue. God is the object of charity.

So, Thomas could say that loving our neighbor has as its object love of God.

That is why the two great commandments are linked. They are not separate. When you love your neighbor, you love God.

peace
 
God can send an actual grace to anyone. He did send an actual grace to this man.
Sure
You have kept him an atheist even though God was moving him.
**You **said he was an atheist.
If he, before he died, converted then indeed that’s a different matter. But if he remained an atheist then he simply rejected God. But this has nothing to do with saving a child.
"So which one is it? Did he die as an atheist?
You are too narrow in your perspective. But you are willing to continue in an 18th century doctrine of Limbo, which the Church, in a kind manner, has rejected.
Read the last few post. They clearly proved you wrong on this one.
The teaching is not in the Gospels, and is not in Tradition.
It has been taught by the Church Fathers and Popes and it’s a logical a conclusion based on dogmatic teachings of the Church.
Yet you cling to it, though it has no roots. You fear it is too harsh to condemn these unbaptised infants to hell. Without your Limbo that is where they are going.
Limbo is part of hell but because infants have no personal sin they will not be punished for anything due to God’s perfect love and justice. Their Original Sin will only inherit them the loss of Beatific Vision.
To say that most men are not saved contradicts God’s will to save all men. To you, Jesus came to save only a few chosen. It is kind of like Calvin’s Predestination.
No, it has nothing to do with Calvin’s Predestination because.

God came to save us all and that’s what he indeed wishes. But he also gave us free choice and gives us his salvation as an offer, which can be rejected. Those who reject their salvation will not be saved. There is no contradiction.

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

Second Secret of Fatima:
“Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.”
 
QUOTE]

I am moot on Fatima.

With all your Catholic teaching on Limbo, isn’t it strange that it is being discarded. Reading the link I gave, I am astonished that you want to keep it on-going.

What happened to our Fireman, when the fire got hot and the roof fell in, I don’t know.

What do they say, 'there are no atheists in the foxhole". He certainly was in a foxhold if he was in a collapsing buring building.

You fill in the blanks; make up whatever details you want.

peace
 
I am moot on Fatima.
Oh well…
With all your Catholic teaching on Limbo, isn’t it strange that it is being discarded. Reading the link I gave, I am astonished that you want to keep it on-going.
Well, my guess is that it’s because it doesn’t feel as nice if we say that they are not going to be saved. I’m not saying that 100% there is limbo but I don’t find it logical to discard something so logical in favour of a speculation that has no strong support in anything other than our emotions (IMO). I mean, there is nothing heretical about it and the Church doesn’t make a judgment on this issue, but I personally don’t find the disbelief in Limbo convincing. I also think that there is a danger that if we try to dance around Limbo then people will think that it’s OK to end up doing it about any other teaching of the Church.
What happened to our Fireman, when the fire got hot and the roof fell in, I don’t know.
What do they say, 'there are no atheists in the foxhole". He certainly was in a foxhold if he was in a collapsing buring building.
You fill in the blanks; make up whatever details you want.
You asked whether perfect charity will save an atheist. I can’t suppose anything else other than what you say, especially since you ask about an atheist, not an ex-atheist.

God bless
 
Oh well…

Well, my guess is that it’s because it doesn’t feel as nice if we say that they are not going to be saved. I’m not saying that 100% there is limbo but I don’t find it logical to discard something so logical in favour of a speculation that has no strong support in anything other than our emotions (IMO). I mean, there is nothing heretical about it and the Church doesn’t make a judgment on this issue, but I personally don’t find the disbelief in Limbo convincing. I also think that there is a danger that if we try to dance around Limbo then people will think that it’s OK to end up doing it about any other teaching of the Church.

You asked whether perfect charity will save an atheist. I can’t suppose anything else other than what you say, especially since you ask about an atheist, not an ex-atheist.

God bless
The Tradition on the side of Limbo is very weak. Very few say this child got any more than a natural heaven after death, and many saying, without baptism, there was no salvation.

Limbo is very weak theologically.

Our thread would have little value if we made the assumption that from the time he received the actual grace, and the time he climbed the stairs, our man converted, and believed, and was praying, and asking God for forgiveness. And after he died, he was received directly into heaven. That may have happened to our fireman, but what fun would that be for the purposes of the discussion?

peace
 
Mgrfin, I noticed a contradiction you made in your statements
You can’t see it? You quote the Council of Orange to say he was outside of the Church. We gave up on Limbo, which existed during the time of the Council of Orange.
Limbo is a creation of an 18th century theologian. He created the concept because he was looking for a solution to the enigma of what happens to unbaptized children and others.
Since the council of Orange was in the year 529, I’d like to know who this 18th century theologian who lived in the sixth century was.

The doctrine of limbo (doctrine in the broad sense of the term) was brought about by the theology of St. Augustine. Need I remind you that Augustinianism is also an official theological system in the Catholic Church?
 
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