Does Purgatory Really Exist?

[Wildgraywolf]

Mikeabele;

Anyone can copy and paste… how 'bout if you use your vast knowledge of scriptre to answer a question in your own words.

Is your soul spotless now?

 

[EA_Man]

ferdie:

If I steal a penny and forgot to repent for it, will I go to hell, yes or no?

Let me ask a question here: do you mean that your salvation is contigent on you remembering every sin you ever committed and that if you forgot one you would go to hell?

Am I misunderstanding you?

 

[john_ennis]

Wildgraywolf:

Mikeabele;

Your posts (34 and 35) are excellent verses, but it still dosen’t address the question when do we become clean enough to enter Heaven?

Are we spotless now in this life and thereby enter Heaven directly at death? Are we now living lives unable to sin?

If we are spotless now how do we explain; “For all have sinned and do need the glory of God”. (Rom 3:23) or “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar: and his word is not in us”. (1 John 1:10)?

If we are not now spotless then when are we made spotless? For nothing unclean enters Heaven.

And further, if Christ’s sacrifice meant that no purgation is necessary, what purpose does our suffering on earth have? Are those who suffer on earth (meaning all of us) simply already beginning the punishment of Hell, or is it part of our salvation?

Those who deny purgatory usually say our suffering here is a result of sin; at the same time, though, they say that Christ did it ALL–every bit of it–so there’s no purpose to suffering.

Anyone ought to see that the fact that even saved people suffer on earth, means that the idea of Purgatory cannot be at odds with Christ’s sacrifice. It’s obvious that He means for suffering to be part of His plan even for the saved.
Peace.
John

 

[Wildgraywolf]

mikeabele:

We cannot make ourselves clean, by any amount of suffering on our part, to attone for our sins apart from Christ we would have to shed our blood and our blood would have to be pure, spotless like the animals sacrificed in OT times, which is just a picture of Christ’s ultimate sacrifice(Heb 10).

Agreed. When are we made clean? When are we "…perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. (Mat 5:48)?

 

[ferdie]

EA_Man:

Let me ask a question here: do you mean that your salvation is contigent on you remembering every sin you ever committed and that if you forgot one you would go to hell?

Am I misunderstanding you?

No, our salvation is not contingent upon remembering every sin we committed. My point is this, nothing unclean can enter heaven, if I have this kind of sin, I am considered unpurified, if I am unpurified how can I enter heaven? **If **I don’t believe in purgatory then I am hell bound right?

 

[CARose]

EA_Man:

Let me ask a question here: do you mean that your salvation is contigent on you remembering every sin you ever committed and that if you forgot one you would go to hell?

Am I misunderstanding you?

Hi EA_Man,

Perhaps you misunderstand both Confession and Contrition.

Contrition is a virtue given by God, by which we are sorrowful for our sins. One can have either Perfect Contrition or Imperfect Contrition. Contrition alone is adequate to cleanse us from our venial (small) sins. Perfect Contrition is the contrition where one is fully remorseful for the sins because they offend God, who is all good and deserving of all our Love.

Imperfect Contrition limits our sorrow for our sins to a fear of the consequences to be imposed by God. This is a less than full understanding of the true love and mercy of God and that love which God deserves from us in return.

Confession on the other hand is the Sacrament authorized by Christ when he told the Apostles that they are sent by him as he was sent by the Father and the sins they forgive are forgiven in Heaven and those they bind are bound in heaven. The priest, during confession, acts In Persona Christi, in the person of Christ, for Christ himself has authorized the forgiveness of sins and it is only through Christ that this forgiveness is available to us.

When a Catholic enters confession, and in clear conscience forgets a sin, it is forgiven during the priests absolution, on the condition that they do their penance. The Penance is a small act (most frequently a prayer or series of prayers) by which the penitant acknowledges to God their offense and their desire to be rid of such behaviors. God gives during confession a special grace to assist the penitant in changing their behaviors. Some times it may take years before specific behaviors stop coming up on a frustratingly regular basis, but through regular confession, serious flaws can be resolved.

There have been studies to show that Catholics who attend confession regularly have lower incidence of Mental Illness, so if nothing else, it helps to clear the conscience and allow one to sleep at night.

I hope this helps in some small way,

CARose

 

[mikeabele]

Scripture says that a believer(not just mental ascent to the truth of who Christ is, but trusting in Him as Lord and Savior) is secure:

Ephesians 4
30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Notice that a believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit, not until we sin, but unto the day of redemption.

Ephesians 1
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I Peter 1
18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

 

[CARose]

mikeabele:

Scripture says that a believer(not just mental ascent to the truth of who Christ is, but trusting in Him as Lord and Savior) is secure:

But not all who cry “Lord, Lord” will be saved, for even the demons know who I am.

 

[EA_Man]

CARose:

Hi EA_Man,

Perhaps you misunderstand both Confession and Contrition.

Contrition is a virtue given by God, by which we are sorrowful for our sins. One can have either Perfect Contrition or Imperfect Contrition. Contrition alone is adequate to cleanse us from our venial (small) sins. Perfect Contrition is the contrition where one is fully remorseful for the sins because they offend God, who is all good and deserving of all our Love.

Imperfect Contrition limits our sorrow for our sins to a fear of the consequences to be imposed by God. This is a less than full understanding of the true love and mercy of God and that love which God deserves from us in return.

Confession on the other hand is the Sacrament authorized by Christ when he told the Apostles that they are sent by him as he was sent by the Father and the sins they forgive are forgiven in Heaven and those they bind are bound in heaven. The priest, during confession, acts In Persona Christi, in the person of Christ, for Christ himself has authorized the forgiveness of sins and it is only through Christ that this forgiveness is available to us.

When a Catholic enters confession, and in clear conscience forgets a sin, it is forgiven during the priests absolution, on the condition that they do their penance. The Penance is a small act (most frequently a prayer or series of prayers) by which the penitant acknowledges to God their offense and their desire to be rid of such behaviors. God gives during confession a special grace to assist the penitant in changing their behaviors. Some times it may take years before specific behaviors stop coming up on a frustratingly regular basis, but through regular confession, serious flaws can be resolved.

I hope this helps in some small way,

CARose

While I don’t adhere to the practice, I am familiar with it.
As I’m sure you know Protestants do believe in confession of sins though not through a priest whom they view as an unnecessary mediator. But scripture does encourage us to confess our sins one to another.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Peace to you.

 

[EA_Man]

ferdie:

No, our salvation is not contingent upon remembering every sin we committed. My point is this, nothing unclean can enter heaven, if I have this kind of sin, I am considered unpurified, if I am unpurified how can I enter heaven? **If **I don’t believe in purgatory then I am hell bound right?

ferdie,

I’m not sure that we can conclude logically from your premises that purgatory exists. I do however agree with the truthfulness of your premises.

premise: Nothing impure / unclean can enter into heaven
premise: Sin is by definition uncleaness or impurity
conclusion: Sin must be removed before enering heaven

It would seem to me that that it is logical.

Perhaps if Purgatory is defined as the only place or method in which or by which sin can be removed then it fits.

Is it a teaching of the RCC that Purgatory is the only way where remaining sin can removed?

These scripture show that we have been forgiven - past tense.

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake HAS forgiven you. (Eph. 4:32)

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, HAS he quickened together with Him, HAVING forgiven ALL your trespasses. (Col. 2:13)

I write unto you, little children, because your sins ARE forgiven you for His name’s sake. (I John 2:12)

To wit, that God was, in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. (II Cor. 5:19)

“In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.” (Eph. 1:7)

Furthermore, if you are a Christian, and I believe that you are.
Then not only are you in Christ but Christ is in you. You are immersed not only in His Death but also in His Life.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. Rom. 8:1-2

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. Rom. 8:9-11

If this is true, then how can believers be in Purgatory?
Christ would also have to be in Purgatory as well.

Peace

 

[Mickey]

Augustine said, in The City of God, that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).

(from Catholic Answers)

 

[Wildgraywolf]

EA_Man:

ferdie,

I’m not sure that we can conclude logically from your premises that purgatory exists. I do however agree with the truthfulness of your premises.

premise: Nothing impure / unclean can enter into heaven
premise: Sin is by definition uncleaness or impurity
conclusion: Sin must be removed before enering heaven

It would seem to me that that it is logical.

Perhaps if Purgatory is defined as the only place or method in which or by which sin can be removed then it fits.

Is it a teaching of the RCC that Purgatory is the only way where remaining sin can removed?

These scripture show that we have been forgiven - past tense.

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake HAS forgiven you. (Eph. 4:32)

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, HAS he quickened together with Him, HAVING forgiven ALL your trespasses. (Col. 2:13)

I write unto you, little children, because your sins ARE forgiven you for His name’s sake. (I John 2:12)

To wit, that God was, in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. (II Cor. 5:19)

“In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.” (Eph. 1:7)

Furthermore, if you are a Christian, and I believe that you are.
Then not only are you in Christ but Christ is in you. You are immersed not only in His Death but also in His Life.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. Rom. 8:1-2

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. Rom. 8:9-11

If this is true, then how can believers be in Purgatory?
Christ would also have to be in Purgatory as well.

Peace

Try this out… Let’s say you’re having a dinner party and you break out your finest table cloth, but you notice that it’s wrinkled and stained. Now, you paid a lot for that table cloth and it’s not so badly damaged that it can’t be made presentable. So you wash and iron it and POOF - good as new. This is the idea of Purgatory.

Here’s a copy and paste item for you to consider as part of your analysis…

*Catholics believe that Purgatory is a step before Heaven where believers are cleaned up for the “wedding banquet” of the Lord in Heaven. Not all believers have to go through Purgatory but all people in Purgatory eventually make it to Heaven. They are the elect. *
*According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: *

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

 

[ferdie]

I am not much into bible verses. But this is the situation:

*If I steal a penny and forgot to repent for it, will I go to hell, yes or no?

*And this is what you said:

premise: Nothing impure / unclean can enter into heaven
premise: Sin is by definition uncleaness or impurity
conclusion: Sin must be removed before enering heaven

It would seem to me that that it is logical.

What do you think happened to me if this is the only sin that I forgot to confess before I died? Please no bible verse I don’t really like interpreting long bible verse. Remember that God is merciful but He also demand justice. How do you think He showed me mercy and at the same time applied His justice?

These scripture show that we have been forgiven - past tense.

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake HAS forgiven you. (Eph. 4:32)

In my understanding, it didn’t say or even implied here that any future sins will be forgiven automatically** without** confessing our sins.
The same thing with all the verses you pasted. Please harmonize the verses you quoted with the whole message of the bible.

Let me give you an example, JP II forgave his would be assassin, but justice requires that the would be assassin pay for his crime, and that is why he is spending time in jail. The same thing with our God he forgives our trespasses but his justice requires that I face the consequence of that sin. There is a parable about this where a person stayed in jail until all his offenses were paid in full.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

ferdie:

Stealing is a sin right? If I stole $1M and forgot to repent for it, will I go to hell, yes or no?

If I steal a penny and forgot to repent for it, will I go to hell, yes or no?

The value of the item has no bearing on the act. Stealing is stealing and according to Gods Law it would break the eight commandment.If you break one commanment in Gods eyes you are guilty of all. The sentence is Hell for the unbeliever. God will not go against His Word for that would make Him a Liar. But I do trust in Gods mercy for I believe there are different degrees of punishment in hell.God is our Judge and I,ll leave it up to Him. God Bless

 

[EA_Man]

Wildgraywolf:

Try this out… Let’s say you’re having a dinner party and you break out your finest table cloth, but you notice that it’s wrinkled and stained. Now, you paid a lot for that table cloth and it’s not so badly damaged that it can’t be made presentable. So you wash and iron it and POOF - good as new. This is the idea of Purgatory.

Here’s a copy and paste item for you to consider as part of your analysis…

*Catholics believe that Purgatory is a step before Heaven where believers are cleaned up for the “wedding banquet” of the Lord in Heaven. Not all believers have to go through Purgatory but all people in Purgatory eventually make it to Heaven. They are the elect. *
*According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: *

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

I like your analogy, especially the part about it costing alot (Christ’s sacrifice).

I don’t want to offend here, but I like to think that Jesus has ‘Scotch-guarded’ us so that because of His righteousness we cannot be ‘stained’ any longer.

I have to go - I will check back later - sorry I didn’t get a chance to cite scripture here.

Christ’s Peace to you.

 

[space_ghost]

…yes!

 

[ferdie]

Some people live in a world where they are constantly tempted by the devil. When you are constantly tempted there is a tendency that you will give in to temptation even in our thoughts only and not by action. Sinning by thoughts only is still a sin. What if I have resisted temptation 99.99% of the time and then for a second I had this idea of stealing some money then all of the sudden I died, is that an automatic hell for me?

 

[JimO]

Sorry, posted on the wrong thread.

 

[mikeabele]

CARose:

But not all who cry “Lord, Lord” will be saved, for even the demons know who I am.

You will note I added a qualifier to my post. It is not only knowing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, it is placing faith/trust in Him for salvation. The demons know who He is and tremble, but they do not have saving faith in Him. Many will think they are saved, and that the works they do are for God, but one day the Lord will say “depart from me you workers of iniquity, I NEVER knew you”.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

EA_Man:

I don’t want to offend here, but I like to think that Jesus has ‘Scotch-guarded’ us so that because of His righteousness we cannot be ‘stained’ any longer.

Yes, exactly! Because we ARE “Scotch-guarded” NONE of the stains are permanent!

I won’t be offended because you improved upon on my analogy