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believers
Guest
OK Cecilia, you win. I can’t and won’t stop you from using your beads to count your prayers just like the Buddhists and Muslims. At least you won’t forget what number your on.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
I just love the way satan convinces people to insert ONLY and **ALONE **in places in an attempt to make scripture say what they want it to.
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cecilia97
Guest
Thanks, believers! But I wonder…do you pray in the morning and evening? Muslims do that too, you know.
cecilia
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Matthew 6.
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms,** let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:**4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5 And when thou prayest, **thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. **Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
The entire context of the first part of chapter six is about vanity. It’s about making a show of oneself. It’s about boasting of one’s holiness. It’s a warning against self-righteousness.
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms,** let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:**4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5 And when thou prayest, **thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. **Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
The entire context of the first part of chapter six is about vanity. It’s about making a show of oneself. It’s about boasting of one’s holiness. It’s a warning against self-righteousness.
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Blue_Serenity
Guest
You betcha! Who said it was vain repetition? Romans 12:12 tells us persevere in prayer, which may require some repetition. I think “vain” is the word that should be emphasized. God looks at prayers that come from the heart, whether they be standard or “made up” prayers.
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believers
Guest
Just when I was going to leave this discussion… you just had to insert your 2 cents. OK… Answer this and we’ll continueI just love the way satan convinces people to insert ONLY and **ALONE **in places in an attempt to make scripture say what they want it to.
Did Jesus say to pray to any one else but God the Father?
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MariaG
Guest
Leave the discussion?
Yet you still have not answered why or if Paul was violating the repetitious prayer when he repeatedly prayed for the same thing.
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KarenNC
Guest
I have to say JoeyWarren’s take on it is the one I was always taught. That doing anything (not just prayers) whose purpose is primarily to draw attention to yourself and make others see how holy and pious you are is both a sign of personal vanity and done in vain as it won’t garner you the praise of God you seek.
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Sixtus
Guest
OK SO LETS GET THIS RIGHT. THIS IS AN ATTACK ON THE HOLY ROSARY!!!
Actually repetitions of the Hail Mary’s is an excellent tool to aid meditation. The biggest obstacle to meditation is distraction. So what you do is give the brain something to work on…a deliberate distraction and given it can only be distracted once, it frees the mind to meditate.
I have had some amazing insights into the life and times of our Blessed Lord by meditating on the Holy Rosary.
Perhaps its critics may like to give it a go.
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George_Craft
Guest
Hi everyone,
I’d like to take this one step further if I may please.
From the Douay-Rheims: Matthew 6:5 And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee. 7 And when you are praying, speak not much as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. 8 Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him.
From the King James: Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
As far as I know, the Douay Rheims is our Catholic version when questions of Scripture arise, not the King James.
So, is it praying by speaking too much just so you can say you pray a lot, or is it being meditative and letting the Holy Spirit answer once in a while? I often think prayers like the Chaplets for the Holy Ghost or Divine Mercy are almost meditative in their style and allow you to drift mentally while maintaining a subconcious focus on God through the easy intonement of phrases such as the “Glory Be” or “For the sake of His sorrowful passion”
This is what St. Jerome wrote: - Mat 6:7 - orantes autem nolite multum loqui sicut ethnici putant enim quia in multiloquio suo exaudiantur
English translation:
Mat. 6:7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.
Just my 2 cents, but I don’t think “Vain Repetition” is the phrase we consider proper in Scripture.
With love,
George
I’d like to take this one step further if I may please.
From the Douay-Rheims: Matthew 6:5 And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee. 7 And when you are praying, speak not much as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. 8 Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him.
From the King James: Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
As far as I know, the Douay Rheims is our Catholic version when questions of Scripture arise, not the King James.
So, is it praying by speaking too much just so you can say you pray a lot, or is it being meditative and letting the Holy Spirit answer once in a while? I often think prayers like the Chaplets for the Holy Ghost or Divine Mercy are almost meditative in their style and allow you to drift mentally while maintaining a subconcious focus on God through the easy intonement of phrases such as the “Glory Be” or “For the sake of His sorrowful passion”
This is what St. Jerome wrote: - Mat 6:7 - orantes autem nolite multum loqui sicut ethnici putant enim quia in multiloquio suo exaudiantur
English translation:
Mat. 6:7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.
Just my 2 cents, but I don’t think “Vain Repetition” is the phrase we consider proper in Scripture.
With love,
George
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believers
Guest
You just don’t get it. Jesus said not to pray as the heathens do. There’s obviously a way the heathens pray that God does not approve of. Hmmm… they REPEAT THEIR PRAYERS. What part of that don’t you understand. The heathens repeat their prayers. Not just once or twice… but just like you guys… over and over and over and over… Paul never did that.Leave the discussion?
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MariaG
Guest
2Cor2:12
The angels also pray the same repeatedly.
Repeating a prayer does not equal vain repetitions.
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believers
Guest
So the Douay-Rheims deleted God’s words.
Vain Repetition comes from battologeo
- to stammer
- to repeat the same things over and over, to use many idle words, to babble, prate. Some suppose the word derived from Battus, a king of Cyrene, who is said to have stuttered; others from Battus, an author of tedious and wordy poems.
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believers
Guest
And exactly what is that supposed to prove? Did Jesus say copy the angels or not do as the heathen do? You can’t just make up your own rules to fit your religion.
Are angels heathens?
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cecilia97
Guest
So repeating a prayer three times is OK…but not 4 or 5?
Interesting…Paul’s letters all start with a blessing “grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Nearly the same words each time. He was certainly into repetition. Ephesians, Galatians, Corinthians, Romans, Philippians, Thessalonians, Colossians…my goodness.
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believers
Guest
I didn’t say that. I don’t repeat my prayers in succession.
I think you’re missing the point. You say the Our Father and Hail Mary in succession… one after the other. You need a rosary just like the buddhist rosary just to keep track. In other words…
Our Father…
Our Father…
Our Father…
Our Father…
Our Father…
Our Father…
Our Father…
Our Father…
Our Father…
Our Father…
Our Father…
Our Father…
Our Father…
Our Father…
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cecilia97
Guest
Well by that logic, since I’m certainly not a heathen, it must be OK for me to repeat prayers.
believers, I really admire your tenacity, and you seem to really want to do the right thing and follow God. But you’re trying to talk people into changing something that they don’t do in the first place. Catholics repeat prayers…but not vainly.cecilia
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MariaG
Guest
Nor can you ignore scripture so as to justify your postition against the Catholic Church.
And I let the whole your argument slide about Christ praying that way because He is Divine in nature, but we just can’t ignore that.
Christ was also fully human. He was not some kind of split personality, his human nature not aware of or not united with His divine nature.
Humans are allowed to repeat the same prayer. Psalms are full of men repeating the same prayer. Christ too repeated the same prayer. So did Paul.
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believers
Guest
Did Jesus have a rosary?
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cecilia97
Guest
You’re missing the point. I explained earlier that the POINT of the rosary is not the repeated prayers, it’s the meditations on Christ. Would my prayer still be heard by God if I only prayed one Hail Mary? YES! The purpose of the repetitions is to mark time while we meditate on Christ. God won’t smite me down if I lose count and only pray nine Hail Marys.
And we don’t need beads…you can pray the rosary without them, count on your fingers, etc.
My advice is to research this more. Most Catholics do not repeat 10 Our Fathers during a rosary…you clearly have no knowledge of you subject.
I’m this close to saying a rosary for you.
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