Does scripture interpret scripture?

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Again though, if the verse has not been infallibly defined, then one still has to go along with private nterpretation, I’m sure there are multiple opinions on this in the catholic world.

As a side note, I would side with the non cessasionitsts; the “perfect” to me appears to be that referenced in verse 12: the face to face life with Jesus Christ. Hence Paul’s comment that all these gifts are partial, as if we look dimly through a glass, but then (the new heavens and new earth), we will have no need for these. But anyways, unrelated to the thread I suppose…

Kind regards

Lincs.
Well, yes, but is it an official teaching of Pentecostalists that tongues have not ceased? Is it an official teaching of Southern Baptists that they have? In other words, is there room for opinion among Pentecostalists about tongues? Can you deny tongues and still be a Pentecostalist? Or believe that tongues are still valid today and be a Southern Baptist?

Since the CC has no official teaching on this, Catholics are free to have their personal opinions, and can have them as long as they are recognized to be personal opinions.

I agree with the side note.
 
Hi Jose,
I don’t think we can pick and choose to fit our ideology Lincs. I even have a problem with the RCC Canon because it doesn’t have all the books that Jesus and the Apostles used (The Septuagint). But I am just a man and while I am entitled to my opinion I am bound to Him and His Church.
The West made a decision with all their Bishops and the East made a decision with all their Bishops. They are both under Apostolic authority and succession.
Now if Luther included the RCC Canon in his German translation and the original KJV also included it, who and why a different Canon was decided. Protestant translations claim that the Bible is the Inerrant Word of God.
I think the canon issue is a pretty major point of discussion, a recent book by Michael Kruger titled ‘Canon revisited’ is just out, which provides an evangelcal viewpoint on all this, from a very capable NT scholar. I’m weary of beginning the endless canon debate here, it’s better for all to sit down, in their own time with a good book! - crossway.org/books/canon-revisited-case/

Luther included the Apocrypha in a separate section, as does the KJV you mention, they are included as pious literature, but the distinction is noted between them and the rest of the scriptures, effectively, the same view expressed amply by the Cajetan quote I provided. So as I’ve said, as there was no absolutely unified view on canon at the time of the Reformation, questions regarding the church having it wrong for 1000 years don’t quite work. Take for example the church before the great schism; differing canons, unity still maintained, it wasn’t seen as a huge issue.
Lincs, I have to say that while I didn’t meet Calvin, you seem to be a far better person and probably much more pleasant to talk to .
There is indeed a popular idea of Calvin as a cold man, it’s not quite so, my readings of him have revelaled a pastoral man, who had great care and love for the church. See some examples here: reformed.org/calvinism/index.html
If salvation is by grace alone, which it most certainly is, based on nothing I can ever do, then I am better than none.
So Calvin had more Grace in interpreting how the binding and loosing applies than what all the Bishops of the Church agree and practice?
Read his chapter on it: m.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.vi.xiii.html
The numerous patristic citations it provides serve to demonstrate that it’s not all simply novel ideas by Calvin.
I hear so many Protestants criticize the RCC and the Pope and how it is all controlled by just one man. Do you know that the Church meets with their Cardinals and Bishops? That most decisions are made by a group of men (A really big group) and not just one man?
Whilst I do have servere disagreements on a papacy in the NT, as well as historically, I know it meets with others.
And here we have one man explaining his opinions (which I have no problem with) but while expressing his opinions, he dares say that all other opinions are wrong!? Under what authority can he establish this alone?
As ive said, with 10 pages of index needed to list all his patristic citations, the idea it’s all Calvin is not quite so. He is for example, massively indebted to Augustine. The extent to which the reformers appeal to the fathers is often missed.
Sorry for the late reply but I will be testing on a work certification this Wednesday, and speaking of which I need to study more
No worries at all 🙂 We all have more pressing matters than refuting each other on the net 👍

Kind regards

Lincs.
 
Scripture has the ability to be known through gifts of the Holy Spirits (Wisdom, Understanding, Council, Knowledge, Fortitude, Piety, Chasity)
The Holy Spirit always and everywhere produces unity. It is the demon that divides.
Westminster confession:7. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.
Is the Pope the antichrist, as the Westminster Confession claims?
Scripture has the ability to reveal essential truths without reading an authoritative interpretation.
You seem to think that scripture is a living, breathing being. Why did our Lord send Apostles (living, breathing beings with God-given authority) forth, and not scripture alone? Why did Peter, writing by the Holy Spirit, condemn private interpretation of scripture, and warn that the ignorant and unstable distort the scriptures? The bible itself destroys the assertions of the Westminster Confession of Faith.
God Bless,

James
He has, and He does! - With a Church which does not change its doctrines, which is founded on the rock of authorirty, rather than the vagaries of man’s ego.

Although scripture can be understood by anyone, it must be interpreted in light of the teaching authority of the Church which Christ founded, and through humble submission to the Holy Spirit. Delving into the early reformation, you see early on that this did not occur. Egos flared, division arose, splinters occurred, and doctrines subsequently conflicted. Calvinism, from which the “Westminster Confession” came, is one of the ego-driven splinters

As to “scripture interpreting scripture” here is a contemporary case in point: The “Romans Road” Christians and the shortest bible in the world, which is foiunded on a demon-lead twist of Romans 3:28. Relying solely on a single verse shredded from the seamless garment of scripture - to the exclusion of even the commands of our Lord Jesus is first, disobedient, and second, is not allowing a single other verse to “interpret” that verse. It violates even their own man-made principle.
 
Although scripture can be understood by anyone, it must be interpreted in light of the teaching authority of the Church which Christ founded, and through humble submission to the Holy Spirit.
The above sentense summarizes most of what you stated. Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Are you stating you “Must” interpret scripture in light of teaching authority because Jesus works through his Church because, if not, then two different denominations claim Holy Spirit interpreted scripture but came to two different conclusions?

How come I have never read or head of a Bible Commentary that has Authentic and Authoritative interpretation for the reader? If there is one, what is it? I’d like to use it.

This is the assumption that the Catholic Cathecism is not the bible and the Magisterium is not a bounded or realistic commentary for “authentic and authoritative” bible reading.

Thoughts?

James
 
Let’s try it another way…

What/where is the inerrant and infallible authority for the idea that God is One in Three Persons?

(Reminder: creeds are fallible.)
While I reject your notion of SS, meaning that one can’t use the creeds, as that’s not the intention of SS, here is just an example of scripture’s support of the Trinity.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Clearly, the Word is God. Jesus is indisputable the Word.

Matt 3
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. 14 But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17 And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Here we have all three referenced at once - God the Son being baptized, God the Spirit descending as a dove, God the Father’s voice from Heaven.

Further confimed by the Creeds.

Jon
 
Are you stating you “Must” interpret scripture in light of teaching authority because Jesus works through his Church because, if not, then two different denominations claim Holy Spirit interpreted scripture but came to two different conclusions?
The Holy Spirit unites. Thus, at least one side of disagreeing parties is not lead, or not fully lead, by the Holy Spirit. The scriptures, and specifically the New Testament, were never intended to be used apart from Church authority. It is only under Church authority that they were written. The New Testament writings, if we are to believe them, do not trace to Christ except through the Apostles via the authority which Christ gave them.

With over 30,000 disagreeing denominations, a demon is clearly leading the interpretation of most, if not all of them, in my opinion. The devil does not seek to divide by destroying the truth, but by twisting it so that we argue instead of pray, dispute instead of perform works of charity, disagree instead of fulfilling Christ’s prayer that we be of one accord.
How come I have never read or head of a Bible Commentary that has Authentic and Authoritative interpretation for the reader? If there is one, what is it? I’d like to use it.
The catechism is a collection of the teachings of the Church. Start there. When questions arise, you have a living, breathing authority to consult to clear situations up. There are many bible commentaries that offer interpretation within the teaching parameters of the Church. The Haydock Commentaries are well known and accepted. In your search, look for one which bears the Imprimatur.
This is the assumption that the Catholic Cathecism is not the bible and the Magisterium is not a bounded or realistic commentary for “authentic and authoritative” bible reading. Thoughts? James
Not quite sure I am following you.
 
While I reject your notion of SS, meaning that one can’t use the creeds, as that’s not the intention of SS, here is just an example of scripture’s support of the Trinity.
My understanding is that Sola Scriptura, from a Lutheran perspective, means the Bible alone is the sole rule and norm of faith. If that’s the case, creeds are dicta.
Clearly, the Word is God. Jesus is indisputable the Word.
It says the Word was with God. If I am “with” my wife, I cannot be both me and my wife. This scripture is not clear it all with regard to the Trinity, and 7.5 million JWs would beg to differ with you on this point.
Here we have all three referenced at once - God the Son being baptized, God the Spirit descending as a dove, God the Father’s voice from Heaven.
Just because they are all referenced doesn’t mean that all three are one God in Three Persons. It just says that the Father is in one place, and Jesus is in another place, and some sort of spirit (in the form of a dove?) is descending from Heaven. One could argue that the Trinity doesn’t make sense in light of this passage because Jesus was not anointed by spirit until his baptism. If that’s true, he is separate from the other two, namely God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Besides - there are other references of persons being referenced at once…

[BIBLEDRB]Genesis 50:23[/BIBLEDRB]

Would you argue that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are one being in three persons?
Further confimed by the Creeds.
Apparently this is your fallback position - creedal tradition.

We can only assume that there is no inerrant and infallible authority that clearly teaches the idea that God is One in Three Persons…

So, back to my original question: How do you decide who is included/excluded from the Christian community? It appears to me that JWs have a right to claim themselves as part of that community. [Unless, of course, we appeal to Tradition].
 
Well, yes, but is it an official teaching of Pentecostalists that tongues have not ceased? Is it an official teaching of Southern Baptists that they have? In other words, is there room for opinion among Pentecostalists about tongues? Can you deny tongues and still be a Pentecostalist? Or believe that tongues are still valid today and be a Southern Baptist?

Since the CC has no official teaching on this, Catholics are free to have their personal opinions, and can have them as long as they are recognized to be personal opinions.

I agree with the side note.
The CC most certainly does! The Church teaches that all the Gifts of the HS will continue to function until Jesus comes to take home His Bride. To deny any of the Gifts in the NT is to deny doctrine of the faith.

That being said, there is a great deal of “charismatic” activity that bears little resemblance to the teaching of the Church.
 
There is indeed a popular idea of Calvin as a cold man,
Could it have something to do with the people he had put to death who did not agree with him?
Code:
it's not quite so, my readings of him have revelaled a pastoral man, who had great care and love for the church. See some examples here: [reformed.org/calvinism/index.html](http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html)
Yes, I believe this. He had no tolerance for those who interpreted the Scriptures differently, though.
If salvation is by grace alone, which it most certainly is, based on nothing I can ever do, then I am better than none.
You do understand that this is what the Catholic Church has always believed and taught, right?
Read his chapter on it: m.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.vi.xiii.html
The numerous patristic citations it provides serve to demonstrate that it’s not all simply novel ideas by Calvin.
No, what was novel was how he organized his theology, and that it is a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.
Code:
I do have servere disagreements on a papacy in the NT, as well as historically, I know it meets with others.
Grist for another thread. 👍
As ive said, with 10 pages of index needed to list all his patristic citations, the idea it’s all Calvin is not quite so. He is for example, massively indebted to Augustine. The extent to which the reformers appeal to the fathers is often missed.
Well, yes and know. He is careful to throw out all the Augustine that strikes him as too Catholic! 😃

He chooses the parts of the fathers and doctors of the church that support his own ideas. He is not alone in doing so, either.
 
Could it have something to do with the people he had put to death who did not agree with him?

Yes, I believe this. He had no tolerance for those who interpreted the Scriptures differently, though.

You do understand that this is what the Catholic Church has always believed and taught, right?

No, what was novel was how he organized his theology, and that it is a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.

Grist for another thread. 👍

Well, yes and know. He is careful to throw out all the Augustine that strikes him as too Catholic! 😃

He chooses the parts of the fathers and doctors of the church that support his own ideas. He is not alone in doing so, either.
Very Charitable Answer, I especially was thinking You do understand that this is what the Catholic Church has always believed and taught, right? 👍

God bless!
 
Guanophore,
Could it have something to do with the people he had put to death who did not agree with him?
Ahh, the old Calvin the dictator and rampager idea, these may be of some help:
thevillagechurch.net/the-village-blog/calvin-killed-a-man/
tquid.sharpens.org/calvin.mp3
Yes, I believe this. He had no tolerance for those who interpreted the Scriptures differently, though.
Indeed he would strongly oppose those who distorted the gospel truth, but as I’ve said, see the above links…
You do understand that this is what the Catholic Church has always believed and taught, right?
Yes.
No, what was novel was how he organized his theology, and that it is a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.
Well, with scripture as our guide to what the Apostles believed and taught, I’d say Calvin gets most of it pretty spot on 👍
Well, yes and know. He is careful to throw out all the Augustine that strikes him as too Catholic!
He chooses the parts of the fathers and doctors of the church that support his own ideas. He is not alone in doing so, either.
Not so much as throw out, but set scriptural norms above Augustine. You seem to have something against the great reformer for finding patristic support for his theology? Does not the CC do the same thing? Augustine on original sin - Does the Church not disagree with him on this matter, and choose instead to support parts of his theology to fit its own ideas?

Regards

Lincs.
 
Magesterium has always been the teaching authority. As you see in just the last few posts what results in theologians interpreting scripture as authority, such as Calvin. Thus when another “disagreed” with him.

To believe Calvin has it right even in the new reformed theology is but an “opinion” a yet, which has “no” historical basis. The “elect” is still a breach in 2000 years of Christian history. Thus the understanding of God, double predestination etc. Which makes Calvinism a major breach…

Thats why there’s a Magesterium, so when the theologians raise unacceptable theology to doctrine, its rebuked as “false”. No different with the Constitution and the Supreme Court. Does this mean individuals within the Supreme Court will never make a mistake? Of course not, no different than the period of reformation. Which Rome became very political.

When the church disagree’d with Augustine that is exactly why no-one is above the teaching authority of the church, had it not disagreed with Origen and Tertullian when they went over the edge, than we would be living false doctrine, just as we would with Calvin.

Look at contraceptives thus abortives. No one agreed with them in the early 1900’s yet look where we are today with religious freedom in civil rights. Why? because a predominately Christian Country disregarded the teaching authority.

Good reason “why” its in place, thus when individuals such as Calvin come along, and they always will.

Peace
 
Hey Gary,
To believe Calvin has it right even in the new reformed theology is but an “opinion” a yet, which has “no” historical basis. The “elect” is still a breach in 2000 years of Christian history. Thus the understanding of God, double predestination etc. Which makes Calvinism a major breach…
No historical basis? Hmm. As I’ve said before, the amount of patristic citations used in the institutes is rather large… The man shows a great knowledge of the early fathers and uses them extensively.
As for the elect being a “breach in 2000 years of Christian history.”, that is, with respect as always Gary, not true. Simply read Augustine’s “On the Predestination of the Saints (Book I)” here; newadvent.org/fathers/15121.htm
Or Thomas Aquinas’ section from the Summa on Predestination here; newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article8
While obviously not identical with Calvin in every way, their work is extensively used by him, and forms a large basis for his thought. Not too mention of course the numerous passages in the New Testament referring to Divine Election.

To ensure this stays slightly on topic, and isn’t just a thread on John Calvin; Calvins primary basis for predestination is the scriptures, interpreting scriptures. But, as I’ve said, in doing this, he draws extensively on the wisdom of the fathers, the tradition does help him as a guide, as it does myself, I simply don’t place it on par with Holy Scripture.

Regards

Lincs
 
No historical basis? Hmm. As I’ve said before, the amount of patristic citations used in the institutes is rather large… The man shows a great knowledge of the early fathers and uses them extensively.
Sola Scriptura understanding of Patristic History? 👍 Is a break from the Deposit of Faith thus “Magesterium”
As for the elect being a “breach in 2000 years of Christian history.”, that is, with respect as always Gary, not true. Simply read Augustine/Aquinas
With respect sola-scriptura reading of either Saint is Calvins path

Have read both, perhaps reading Fr William Most would put this in prespective for you. Course why would you want to read “Catholic” 🤷 Both are to be read in light on the Deposit of Faith thus the Magesterium, not contrary to it, which btw they both believed in. Not read sola-scriptura which lead to Calvins incorrect assumption. Last there are severe breaks in comparing Calvins understanding to either Saint.
While obviously not identical with Calvin in every way, their work is extensively used by him, and forms a large basis for his thought. Not too mention of course the numerous passages in the New Testament referring to Divine Election.
Obviously not, once again a “common” path we see without the Magisterium.
Calvins primary basis for predestination is the scriptures, interpreting scriptures. But, as I’ve said, in doing this, he draws extensively on the wisdom of the fathers, the tradition does help him as a guide, as it does myself, I simply don’t place it on par with Holy Scripture.
As I have said he reads them in Sola Scriptue and hears what he wants to confirm his own confused theological theory.

Yes Calvins misunderstanding of scripture thus Sola Scriptura which only “Calvinists agree with and the New Reformed Calvinists” with no check and balance, thus “Magesterium” point being thats why individuals like Origen, Tertullian, and Calvin are stopped, when they drive off the tracks in theology thus the Deposit of Faith. And they have.

Here’s the POINT…

Why does God love some more than other’s when all are inclined to sin, Linc? Why does he love you, more than other’s Linc? How do you know you are one of the Predestined? What indicates this?

Perhaps a personal perspective will give us understanding of this theological error.

No one is predestined to sin, God imposed no necessity on man’s free will, man’s will remains free under Gods grace, Grace is resistable, through the inclination to sin. Thats why in Gods wisdom, thus the “sacraments” exist. No one perishes because he is unable to be saved, but because he is unwilling to be saved, and is blinded by the self in vice, and at some point no longer see’s Grace. God desires all men, without exception, to be saved. God gives sufficient grace to all men, for salvation, yet not all men are saved. Why? because the chose the vanity of this world and all its vice over Gods Grace.

Such a severe breach in understanding Romans is “why” there is a Teaching Authority thus Sola Sciptura is not, nor ever was an authority.

Who is the Reformed Churchs teaching authority? John Calvin? Along with who?:eek: To say something is “kinda” or “sorta” like the truth, sounds like the truth, means its the truth? I don’t agree. Though I could see why some be “inclined” to follow this.

Regards, Gary
 
Gary,
Sola Scriptura understanding of Patristic History? Is a break from the Deposit of Faith thus “Magesterium”
I dont quite get what you mean by a “sola scriptura understanding of history”? Sola Scriptura means simply scripture is the authrotiy in matters of faith, but not to the exclusion of either church or Traditon, it simply doesn’t place them on par with the inspired scriptures. I don’t see how your linking this to Calvins quoting of the fathers?

I guess what your saying in effect is that tradition is also unclear unless properly interpreted by the magisterium?
Have read both, perhaps reading Fr William Most would put this in prespective for you. Course why would you want to read “Catholic” Both are to be read in light on the Deposit of Faith thus the Magesterium, not contrary to it, which btw they both believed in. Not read sola-scriptura which lead to Calvins incorrect assumption. Last there are severe breaks in comparing Calvins understanding to either Saint.
Is Fr. Most a Thomist or Molinist, out of interest?

“Read in the deposit of faith”; but this changes Gary- one day papal infallibility wasn’t considered an essential part of it, then it was. I prefer isntead to read them in context for who they were, im happy to let them be who they were, I have no need to read into them anything.
As I have said he reads them in Sola Scriptue and hears what he wants to confirm his own confused theological theory.
Confused? It’s rather systematic to be fair… Are you suggesting with this then, that Catholics don’t hear what they want to hear in the fathers to support their theolgy?
Why? because the chose the vanity of this world and all its vice over Gods Grace.
Why do some choose the offer and some don’t, Gary?

Kind regards,

Lincs
 
Po18 –

Well thought posts. I appreciate your time. I thought about your post deeply.
It is only under Church authority that they were written.
Church > Infallible Scriptures or is it Church = Infallible scriptures because both spring from same source: Christ?

30,000 disagreeing denominations

I prefer approx. 150 w/ no consensus on post-denominational Churches and how to account for those. How do you count non-denominational?

The catechism is a collection of the teachings of the Church. Start there.

Done, almost finished. On paragraph 2240.

There are many bible commentaries that offer interpretation within the teaching parameters of the Church.

So technically it is “authentic and authoritative” teaching parameters w/ a couple “authentic and authoritative” infallible statements regarding a couple passages?

I guess what I am asking is, how does one reading the Bible in light of authentic and authoritative teaching if there is no official “authentic and authoritative” bible commentary?

Kind Regards,

James
 
Po18 –

Well thought posts. I appreciate your time. I thought about your post deeply.
It is only under Church authority that they were written.
Church > Infallible Scriptures or is it Church = Infallible scriptures because both spring from same source: Christ?
30,000 disagreeing denominations
I prefer approx. 150 w/ no consensus on post-denominational Churches and how to account for those. How do you count non-denominational?
The catechism is a collection of the teachings of the Church.
Done, almost finished. On paragraph 2240.
There are many bible commentaries that offer interpretation within the teaching parameters of the Church.
So technically it is “authentic and authoritative” teaching parameters w/ a couple “authentic and authoritative” infallible statements regarding a couple passages?

I guess what I am asking is, how does one reading the Bible in light of authentic and authoritative teaching if there is no official “authentic and authoritative” bible commentary?

Kind Regards,

James
 
Deposit of Faith is here Linc…

therealpresence.org/archives/Catechism/Catechism_008.htm

Surely one can read Augustine or Aquinas and interpret them incorrectly. I would say thats exactly how this entire mess started. Course the vast political situation in Rome didn’t help with mans errors. Men make mistakes as we see, which came to the “why” which you ask.

Its real simple and I see no need to complicate this, its Virtue or Vice. Where your pleasure is so too there is where your heart is. Thats why we “practice” at being Catholic.

To entertain the idea of being the elect, IMHO would indicate a lack of virtue and without doubt humility. While this certainly wouldn’t indicate all think as such, which I believe I have mentioned on another thread. I still can foresee this leading souls astray.

The Cross was a victory and gave man salvation, which did not exist till Christ, thus Adam and Eve. However through Baptism and the virtue of Grace while this corrects Original Sin, man is not in the clear, nor does he aquire the title of “elect” through this Sacrament. In fact I would say he just entered into the front door of the Church.

I have no idea what some take out of the Catholic Church. Hopefully they stop here when confused and while any one of us may not have the complete answer, through a collective effort they will find the Truth in Church teaching. Stop at the church, something. Even before coming to a conclusion with scripture, there should be a collective understanding.

What did Nancy Pelosi read? Certainly wasn’t the CCC. 😉

However St Augustine and Aquinas coincide with the Deposit of Faith or they wouldn’t be Saints, they would be on the “banned” list. Confessions chaper 9 with Augustine covers Predestination. Probably can google and read it. You read Aquinas. Problem with both as is well noted, is when they are read through selective hearing.

IMHO these are just on-going errors of the reformation. And possibly more extreme now than then.

Peace
 
I think that we also need the Church Fathers, Tradition and the Magesterium. My friend thinks that all we need is the bible. So to what extent does scripture interpret scripture or does it?

I listen to Michael Voris and I thought that in one of his talks, and I can’t remember which one, he said that scripture does not interpret scripture. I hope that I am not miss-speaking here but I thought that is what he said.

Thanks
Phyllo
No, Scripture backs up scripture. New back up Old, and Old backs up New. If it doesn’t it isn’t from God.
 
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