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Lemuel
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I don’t hate. I love. And that is why I do everything I can to help people escape the Mormon church. I’m actually having some success, too.
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gazelam
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Acts 4:13 Observing the boldness of Peter and John and perceiving them to be uneducated, ordinary men, they were amazed, and they recognized them as the companions of Jesus
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RebeccaJ
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Yes the Mormon church.RebeccaJ:
This is the mission of the Mormon church?
Why is perfecting the saints first on their list? Who are the saints in their view? And how does a Mormon perfect anyone when only Jesus can do that through knowing and walking with Him 24/7/365?
St. Paul calls all the baptized saints, or holy ones. This is also taught in Catholicism.
Perfecting the saints is analogous to seeking a holy lifestyle, though Mormonism adds ideas of perfection being required for becoming a god. Concepts that are unique to Mormonism, such as their temple rites. And concepts familiar to Christians, such as keeping the Ten Commandments.
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lilypadrees
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Thank you, RebeccaJ.
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Lemuel
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From the D&C:
15 Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.
What would you call keeping his commandments “continually”? Sounds like perfection to me. I wonder how much keeping his commandments “continually” allows for occasional sin. I also wonder how many Mormons never sin. Sounds to me like the Mormon God is going to be quite lonely.
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RebeccaJ
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Sounds like hyperbole to me.
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huck
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Hello Catboy,
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I also read the BOM and I found it to have valuable insights for me as I attempted to navigate through the world of Religion. For me the BOM is about the Religious world. There are several churches that have originated from the 1830 church each with a claim to being the legitimate successor to the 1830 Church of Christ. My understanding is that the LDS claim is based on a camp meeting where some of the members made a lot of noise claiming that BY took on some of the characteristics of Joseph Smith. Why is it important to you to get back into the LDS church?
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I also read the BOM and I found it to have valuable insights for me as I attempted to navigate through the world of Religion. For me the BOM is about the Religious world. There are several churches that have originated from the 1830 church each with a claim to being the legitimate successor to the 1830 Church of Christ. My understanding is that the LDS claim is based on a camp meeting where some of the members made a lot of noise claiming that BY took on some of the characteristics of Joseph Smith. Why is it important to you to get back into the LDS church?
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Lemuel
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The transfiguration of Brigham Young to Joseph Smith is just Mormon folklore that still seems to get passed on. It’s interesting but BY wasn’t even the president until 1847, three years after JS was killed. And it didn’t happen without a lot of fighting and positioning for Joseph’s vacancy.
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lilypadrees
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Um, it sounds like you are responding to huck’s post (which I quoted) not mine.
THIS was my post.
"Again, I ask, how do Mormons perfect anyone when only Jesus can do that through the person walking with, growing in and knowing Him 24/7/365?
And what is Jesus’ Second Coming, according to the Mormon Church? Do you also believe that the Apostle John is still alive walking the earth? (I was told this by a Mormon I spoke with and am wondering if this is an individual belief or whether all Mormons believe it.)"
Could you please respond to it?
THIS was my post.
"Again, I ask, how do Mormons perfect anyone when only Jesus can do that through the person walking with, growing in and knowing Him 24/7/365?
And what is Jesus’ Second Coming, according to the Mormon Church? Do you also believe that the Apostle John is still alive walking the earth? (I was told this by a Mormon I spoke with and am wondering if this is an individual belief or whether all Mormons believe it.)"
Could you please respond to it?
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lilypadrees
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SchrodingersCatBoy says:
“Our GOD is The God of Abraham. We worship the most loving, kind, caring, compassionate, sympathetic, empathetic, God than any other Religion on Earth. HE is just, righteous, merciful, and gracious. I do not believe in Hell either … at least, not the Baptist/Roman Catholic Hell. I do not think that Place exists. I would not worship a God that would create a Place like that. I sometimes wonder what God other “Christian” Religions worship.”
You say that your god is the God of Abraham. How can you believe that when you teach that your god was first a human being who became a god after dying just like Jesus did? Your teaching is wrong, sir. The God of Abraham has always been God, is God and will always be God. He was never a human being. He never had sex with any goddess wives. (There are none.) He never became a god after dying.
Jesus is God Incarnate, the Word made flesh who dwelt among us. He was born with two full natures, one Divine, the other, human. I stress full natures because I want there to be no doubt in your mind that Jesus has always been God, the Second Person of the Trinity, which Mormons don’t believe in. He didn’t stop being God while living on this earth. Nor was He elected to the godhood by the other gods your church believes in.
As for Hell, it is real. I’m sorry you choose not to believe in it. Christians do and we worship the God who created it because He is the same God who created Heaven where we pray we will live one day with Him. We know many will be in Hell but pray that number will be as few as possible.
Christians do not believe in the various levels of heaven Mormons believe in. We do not believe we will become gods and goddesses ruling our own kingdoms or worlds or that our God lives on a planet near the star Kolob. (Show us this star in the Holy Bible, please.) We do not believe we will have many wives or husbands and have spirit children. The Holy Bible is clear that there will be no marriage in Heaven.
“Our GOD is The God of Abraham. We worship the most loving, kind, caring, compassionate, sympathetic, empathetic, God than any other Religion on Earth. HE is just, righteous, merciful, and gracious. I do not believe in Hell either … at least, not the Baptist/Roman Catholic Hell. I do not think that Place exists. I would not worship a God that would create a Place like that. I sometimes wonder what God other “Christian” Religions worship.”
You say that your god is the God of Abraham. How can you believe that when you teach that your god was first a human being who became a god after dying just like Jesus did? Your teaching is wrong, sir. The God of Abraham has always been God, is God and will always be God. He was never a human being. He never had sex with any goddess wives. (There are none.) He never became a god after dying.
Jesus is God Incarnate, the Word made flesh who dwelt among us. He was born with two full natures, one Divine, the other, human. I stress full natures because I want there to be no doubt in your mind that Jesus has always been God, the Second Person of the Trinity, which Mormons don’t believe in. He didn’t stop being God while living on this earth. Nor was He elected to the godhood by the other gods your church believes in.
As for Hell, it is real. I’m sorry you choose not to believe in it. Christians do and we worship the God who created it because He is the same God who created Heaven where we pray we will live one day with Him. We know many will be in Hell but pray that number will be as few as possible.
Christians do not believe in the various levels of heaven Mormons believe in. We do not believe we will become gods and goddesses ruling our own kingdoms or worlds or that our God lives on a planet near the star Kolob. (Show us this star in the Holy Bible, please.) We do not believe we will have many wives or husbands and have spirit children. The Holy Bible is clear that there will be no marriage in Heaven.
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lilypadrees
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When did you leave the Mormon church?
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gazelam
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Multiple times Jesus referred to himself as “Son of Man”, i.e., Matthew 12:40, Matthew 25:31, Matthew 26:24, Luke 5:24, Mark 8:31, etc.) Why we He refer to his Father as “Man” if there weren’t some human element - now or previously - to God the Father?
Also, consider this verse:
John 10:18 Jesus answered him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
In the verse, “no one” can clearly be substituted with “no man or woman”. The exact same meaning is conveyed by stating “no man or woman is good but God alone”.
Some English Bible translations prior to the KJV actually rendered this verse to say “no man is good but God alone”. Again, Jesus is referring to his Father as “Man”.
This portion of your question is answered in John 5:19: Jesus answered and said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, a son cannot do anything on his own, but only what he sees his father doing; for what he does, his son will do also.
LDS don’t claim to know how spirits are procreated by God. If you have an authoritative LDS quote that contradicts this, please share it. The type of rhetoric you are using here is simply intended to shock, but not enlighten.
If Jesus has always been God, why was He designated or assigned at one point to become the Son of God per Romans 1:4?
Romans 1:4 but established as Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness through resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord
establish - to bring into existence
What levels of Heaven do you believe in? Paul wrote of the third Heaven. There must be a first and second also.
Do you believe Romans 8:17 that you can become a joint-heir with Christ? Doesn’t that mean receiving the same power and glory Christ already inherited?
More to follow…
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gazelam
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What exactly is your concern with this distinctive LDS believe? Catholics believe several distinctive doctrines that are only found in “Sacred Tradition” and not in the Bible.
The Bible is only clear that there will be no new marriages in Heaven. It does not state that existing marriages must be terminated.
A non-LDS scholar stated…
The case put forward by the Sadducees is particularly extreme. Not only had six brothers attempted and failed to impregnate the woman in question, but she had also outlived them all and was single when she died. It is perhaps this last fact which prompts the question: Whose spouse will she be in the resurrection?..Jesus stresses that in the age to come people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Notice what Jesus does not say. He does not say there will be no marriage in the age to come. The use of the terms “γαμουσιν” (gamousin) and “γαμιζονται” (gamizontai) is important, for these terms refer to the gender-specific roles played in early Jewish society by the man and the woman in the process of getting married. The men, being the initiators of the process in such a strongly patriarchal culture, “marry,” while the women are “given in marriage” by their father or another older family member. Thus Mark has Jesus saying that no new marriages will be initiated in the eschatological [resurrection] state. This is surely not the same as claiming that all existing marriages will disappear in the eschatological state.” (Ben Witherington III, The Gospel of Mark: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary, p. 328, italics added)
I hope this helps…
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RebeccaJ
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LOL you’re funny. The Mormon missionaries make it to my home on their own, every few years. I say, I’m not interested, they keep taliking and they keep coming back.
Read your Bible for hell’s sake (pun intended)*. Try doing so without thinking on how corrupt it might be, at the same time. Matthew 25 might be a good place to start.
Verse 41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Oh look God made a place for the devil and his angels, to which there will also be those who are judged to go.
Mormonism is like T-ball, everyone gets a trophy.
*Some people have no sense of humor.
Read your Bible for hell’s sake (pun intended)*. Try doing so without thinking on how corrupt it might be, at the same time. Matthew 25 might be a good place to start.
Verse 41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Oh look God made a place for the devil and his angels, to which there will also be those who are judged to go.
Mormonism is like T-ball, everyone gets a trophy.
*Some people have no sense of humor.
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RebeccaJ
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“ What is the best Bible to use?” …”The one you’ll read!”
I added a KJV quote, just for you.
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lilypadrees
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What we are responding to are the false teachings of the Mormon church. There’s no negativity meant towards the people themselves. I’m sorry if you feel there is. Since your profile still states that you’re a Latter-Day Saint and you say you aren’t one any longer, is there a church you are now in agreement with?
No, the way I mean “perfect” is the way Mormons in other forums (like Amazon) have stated it. They didn’t credit Jesus with doing the perfecting of others but the Mormons and the Mormon church. What I take it you say you’re trying to do with your nephew is to train him up in the way he should go and when he is old, he will not depart from it. (Proverbs 22:6).
The Bible states that Jesus doesn’t know when He will return. Only the Father knows. That’s one of several things the BoM took from the Holy Bible.
Regarding the Second Coming, I was told by several Mormons that the Second Coming of Christ has nothing to do with the Millennium. That it has already occurred and that Jesus has been here several times. That it occurred when Jesus, Peter and John appeared to Joseph Smith and bade him to be the founder of His church and to build Him temples That Jesus came again when said temples were built and visited all but one blessing each one. And that when He comes again on the Last Day, Mormons will be the ones by His side on the thrones judging everyone.
Another of the Mormon teachings that is wrong is the proxy baptism. The Mormon church teaches that you can baptize living members (who are in good standing) in place of dead members who were unsaved and unbaptized when they died. This is part of the work your church does for your Mormon ancestors.
Having been ex-communicated, provided you don’t return, what is your view of these teachings now?
No, the way I mean “perfect” is the way Mormons in other forums (like Amazon) have stated it. They didn’t credit Jesus with doing the perfecting of others but the Mormons and the Mormon church. What I take it you say you’re trying to do with your nephew is to train him up in the way he should go and when he is old, he will not depart from it. (Proverbs 22:6).
The Bible states that Jesus doesn’t know when He will return. Only the Father knows. That’s one of several things the BoM took from the Holy Bible.
Regarding the Second Coming, I was told by several Mormons that the Second Coming of Christ has nothing to do with the Millennium. That it has already occurred and that Jesus has been here several times. That it occurred when Jesus, Peter and John appeared to Joseph Smith and bade him to be the founder of His church and to build Him temples That Jesus came again when said temples were built and visited all but one blessing each one. And that when He comes again on the Last Day, Mormons will be the ones by His side on the thrones judging everyone.
Another of the Mormon teachings that is wrong is the proxy baptism. The Mormon church teaches that you can baptize living members (who are in good standing) in place of dead members who were unsaved and unbaptized when they died. This is part of the work your church does for your Mormon ancestors.
Having been ex-communicated, provided you don’t return, what is your view of these teachings now?
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lilypadrees
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What is the name of the Mormon heavenly mother? Is it Wisdom?
I do not know the names of all the gods in the Mormon godhood, only that Mormon belief is that the Jewish and Christian God of the Bible was a human being who became a god after being initiated into the godhood by all the gods that came before. And that this Mormon god had sex with his goddess wives but the earth was populated by his union with his favorite of these wives.
When Jesus was born, He, according to Mormons was a human being. And after death, was also voted in and imitiated into the godhead which is why Jesus is able to appear to people like Joseph Smith.
There is no “Baptist Hell” or “Roman Catholic Hell” or any Hell for specific denominations. There is Hell. I’m sorry that you’ve fallen into one of Satan’s biggest deceptions that Hell isn’t real. There are many who will find themselves there who currently believe it doesn’t exist. And those people who end up there will wish Hell wasn’t real.
You see, Benji, if I call you that, the same God who is all loving also is a just God. He doesn’t want anyone to go there. But He gave us free will. We choose by our thoughts, our actions, our deeds, the way we live our lives, whether we will be in Heaven with Him or in Hell with Satan. As Catholics, as Christians, we pray that as few will be in Hell as possible.
I choose Heaven as my eternal home. I pray that you and your nephew will be there. I would love to worship Jesus together with you in His Kingdom.
I do not know the names of all the gods in the Mormon godhood, only that Mormon belief is that the Jewish and Christian God of the Bible was a human being who became a god after being initiated into the godhood by all the gods that came before. And that this Mormon god had sex with his goddess wives but the earth was populated by his union with his favorite of these wives.
When Jesus was born, He, according to Mormons was a human being. And after death, was also voted in and imitiated into the godhead which is why Jesus is able to appear to people like Joseph Smith.
There is no “Baptist Hell” or “Roman Catholic Hell” or any Hell for specific denominations. There is Hell. I’m sorry that you’ve fallen into one of Satan’s biggest deceptions that Hell isn’t real. There are many who will find themselves there who currently believe it doesn’t exist. And those people who end up there will wish Hell wasn’t real.
You see, Benji, if I call you that, the same God who is all loving also is a just God. He doesn’t want anyone to go there. But He gave us free will. We choose by our thoughts, our actions, our deeds, the way we live our lives, whether we will be in Heaven with Him or in Hell with Satan. As Catholics, as Christians, we pray that as few will be in Hell as possible.
I choose Heaven as my eternal home. I pray that you and your nephew will be there. I would love to worship Jesus together with you in His Kingdom.
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lilypadrees
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Jesus got His humanity from His (human) mother, Mary, gazelam. Mary isn’t a goddess. She isn’t Isis or any of the other names people have given her. The Blessed Virgin is the mother of Jesus, who is God Incarnate. The same Jesus who is the Word made flesh who came to live among us, teach us about His Father’s Kingdom (Heaven) and to die on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins.
If you read the entire post, gazelam, you’ll see that my reference to God being human before becoming a god was in regard to the Father. I said “like Jesus was.”
No one in this discussion has disputed the fact that Jesus said that only God is good. Only God is good. The rest of us want to be good like He is. But we will never become gods or goddesses.
Your church’s teachings are very clear. I can go through my notes and references back to the official Mormon websites and books if necessary to bring up this teaching about your god having sex with his goddess wives. But I warn you, I’ve done that before with a Mormon who denied the truth about those teachings and many others. When I proved the proof of the things we were discussing, he wasn’t able to deny the truth any longer.
It would be better for you to research it yourself. I think you’ll be surprised. Once you do that research on your own, it will stay with you and since you wish to remain a Mormon, you can take it up with your elders, your priesthood, your church’s hierarchy and et the truth out there.
If you read the entire post, gazelam, you’ll see that my reference to God being human before becoming a god was in regard to the Father. I said “like Jesus was.”
No one in this discussion has disputed the fact that Jesus said that only God is good. Only God is good. The rest of us want to be good like He is. But we will never become gods or goddesses.
Your church’s teachings are very clear. I can go through my notes and references back to the official Mormon websites and books if necessary to bring up this teaching about your god having sex with his goddess wives. But I warn you, I’ve done that before with a Mormon who denied the truth about those teachings and many others. When I proved the proof of the things we were discussing, he wasn’t able to deny the truth any longer.
It would be better for you to research it yourself. I think you’ll be surprised. Once you do that research on your own, it will stay with you and since you wish to remain a Mormon, you can take it up with your elders, your priesthood, your church’s hierarchy and et the truth out there.
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lilypadrees
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I’m sorry to disillusion you, gazelam. But there will be no marriage in Heaven. Period. Marriage ends at death. It does not, as Mormons believe, continue for time and eternity. There are no sealings. All of these things you do to keep your families together in the hereafter are for naught.
As I’ve told many Mormons, there is no star named Kolob (although today, with the Star Registry, I’m sure some have “named” stars by that name to give Joseph Smith’s BoM a sense of authentication). The real God doesn’t live on a planet or a star. I’m sorry your church teaches that He does. But your whole religion is built on the fanciful imaginings of Joseph Smith.
As I’ve told many Mormons, there is no star named Kolob (although today, with the Star Registry, I’m sure some have “named” stars by that name to give Joseph Smith’s BoM a sense of authentication). The real God doesn’t live on a planet or a star. I’m sorry your church teaches that He does. But your whole religion is built on the fanciful imaginings of Joseph Smith.
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