Does the Catholic Church accept Mormons as your brother and sisters in Christ?

[2nd_Adam]

thank you thank you thank you dancelittleewok! much appreciated. and if anyone cares to read the post i gave earlier in this thread, they will see that i do not believe mormonism is true, or that the book of mormon is true, my only statement that got this thread going was that i believe there are individual mormons in the lds church that can be and are brothers and sisters in Christ. i never claimed the mormon church as a whole. but yes i do appreciate mormon posters who can rightly divide their book so i can understand it and them better and see where they are coming from, instead of reading it and taking it out of context. i also study the koran, the teachings of buddha, and the Jewish translations of the ot. have also had bible studies with rabbis. im sorry if i just cant shout heratic louder than the next guy.lol! love in Christ. God bless you and yours.:grouphug:

I think your position is extremely dangerous bro. You and I do not have the ablility to know if a Mormon is united to Christ. God knows the condition of the heart, because He is the One who removes the heart of stone. By calling individual Mormons to be your brother and sister in Christ, you are playing God. We can only discern and judge the doctrines of others to see if you can call someone a sibling in Christ. We are only judging doctrine only within receiving others as Christian siblings. I have no doubt that there is a remnant in the LDS Church. However, the remnant will reject Mormon doctrine and leave that church for an orthodox historic Christian Church.

 

[dianaiad]

I think before such a question can be answered, it’s perhaps necessary to differentiate or compare how Catholics and Mormons (LDS) administer the Sacrament of Baptism. According to the traditional Catholic Church doctrine, four requirements must be met for a baptism to be considered validly administered. These include; (1) the matter, (2) the form, (3) the intention of the person who is to administer baptism, and (4) the right disposition of the recipient.

With respect to the #1 requirement, Catholics (& Protestants) agree on this. All use water (whether by sprinkling or immersion). With #2, although the Mormons use the Trinitarian formula, their invocation of the Blessed Trinity is in divergence to that of the Catholic Church. This is because the LDS believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three gods who formed one divinity and that they exist in perfect harmony. The Catholics believe that the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three persons in which subsists the one GODHEAD, simply, 3 persons in One God.

(grin) THAT is the sort of language that got ME in trouble. You realise, don’t you, that the words you just used to describe the Catholic view of the Godhead are precisely the words used by LDS when we describe the Godhead. Indeed, ‘Godhead’ IS the word we use.

I.LDS also believe that God the Father is married and their first born is Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit is a son of heavenly parents. Thus, in this sense the Trinitarian formula used in baptism by LDS is done with a wrong purpose.

How does our perception of Who God and Christ are affect the PURPOSE of baptism? M’just askin’…

As with regards to #3, LDS believe that baptism was instituted by God and Not by Christ. Catholics believe baptism was instituted by Christ.

Which begs the question of why people were baptised before Christ appeared…and even, if it was instituted BY Him, why HE had to be baptised…

Of course, that’s only one of the questions it begs.

According to the Catholic Church, Baptism cancels both personal sins and original sin, hence the necessity of baptizing infants. The LDS do not accept the remission of original sin,

]
Well, yeah, actually, we do accept that. It’s just that we believe that Jesus Christ took care of that for us with His Atonement, so that there is no NEED to worry about original sin, at least personally and theologically. We manage to sin quite sufficienly by ourselves without borrowing Adam’s sins.

there the LDS baptizer’s intention to baptize a person is based on what LDS does and Not on what Christ said.

Really? How IS that, exactly?

Finally, in relation to #4, because the person who is baptised already has the use of reason and has been already instructed according to LDS teachings & faith, it would be necessary to say that the baptism recieved by that person is nothing different from what he was taught.

From all these, I can say that as human beings we can consider Mormons as bros & sis., but definitely Not Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

I get that about you, m’friend. Never mind, though. We don’t disown you.

 

[benidict]

I think your position is extremely dangerous bro. You and I do not have the ablility to know if a Mormon is united to Christ. God knows the condition of the heart, because He is the One who removes the heart of stone. By calling individual Mormons to be your brother and sister in Christ, you are playing God. We can only discern and judge the doctrines of others to see if you can call someone a sibling in Christ. We are only judging doctrine only within receiving others as Christian siblings. I have no doubt that there is a remnant in the LDS Church. However, the remnant will reject Mormon doctrine and leave that church for an orthodox historic Christian Church.

do not understand how you can say this without accusing yourself brother 2nd. because it infers that you have already consigned all mormons to hell. if i am to use your reasoning. then i can accept no seperated brothers in the protestant denominations either. and believe me. if it were not for the teaching of the magisterium in the Catachism. i would not accept protestants as brothers and sisters in the Lord. i believe you are a follower of Jesus Christ, and it is wonderful we both follow the same creeds. but i also believe z is a follower of Jesus Christ. even tho we do not share the same exact creed. i reserve that judgement for God. even for myself. i know i am redeemed and am working out my salvation with fear and trembling. i believe you are doing the same, and i believe someone like z, although we may have a different doctrine is doing likewise. so i do not believe i am playing God. i think you may be just a little suprised who has made it into the kingdom when the time comes. as may we all. God bless you and yours my brother. and the ocean is nice and warm here!:grouphug:

 

[benidict]

I think your position is extremely dangerous bro. You and I do not have the ablility to know if a Mormon is united to Christ. God knows the condition of the heart, because He is the One who removes the heart of stone. By calling individual Mormons to be your brother and sister in Christ, you are playing God. We can only discern and judge the doctrines of others to see if you can call someone a sibling in Christ. We are only judging doctrine only within receiving others as Christian siblings. I have no doubt that there is a remnant in the LDS Church. However, the remnant will reject Mormon doctrine and leave that church for an orthodox historic Christian Church.

sorry, had to add somthing. i do not believe you belong to a historic orthodox Christian Church either. does that mean i reject you? no it does not. Peace

 

[whatistruth]

In Catholicism, a valid Baptism must be performed in the Trinitarian formula; “In the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit”. Mormons do not believe in the Trinity, therefore they do not have valid Baptisms and therefore they are not conscidered Christian as a religion. However, the Church believes of no fault of their own some may fall under the “Baptism of Desire” and only our Trinitarian God knows who they are so we will not pass judgement here. In America everyone has complete access to the Fullness of Truth so there is no excuse for disbelief in the Trinity and that Baptism is required for Salvation.

WhatisTruth

 

[benidict]

In Catholicism, a valid Baptism must be performed in the Trinitarian formula; “In the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit”. Mormons do not believe in the Trinity, therefore they do not have valid Baptisms and therefore they are not conscidered Christian as a religion. However, the Church believes of no fault of their own some may fall under the “Baptism of Desire” and only our Trinitarian God knows who they are so we will not pass judgement here. In America everyone has complete access to the Fullness of Truth so there is no excuse for disbelief in the Trinity and that Baptism is required for Salvation.

WhatisTruth

very nicely worded. and thank you for refreshing my memory. i had forgotten, about the baptism of desire. appreciate it. Peace be with you.

 

[whatistruth]

And also with you

Whatistruth

 

[2nd_Adam]

do not understand how you can say this without accusing yourself brother 2nd. because it infers that you have already consigned all mormons to hell. if i am to use your reasoning. then i can accept no seperated brothers in the protestant denominations either. and believe me. if it were not for the teaching of the magisterium in the Catachism. i would not accept protestants as brothers and sisters in the Lord. i believe you are a follower of Jesus Christ, and it is wonderful we both follow the same creeds. but i also believe z is a follower of Jesus Christ. even tho we do not share the same exact creed. i reserve that judgement for God. even for myself. i know i am redeemed and am working out my salvation with fear and trembling. i believe you are doing the same, and i believe someone like z, although we may have a different doctrine is doing likewise. so i do not believe i am playing God. i think you may be just a little suprised who has made it into the kingdom when the time comes. as may we all. God bless you and yours my brother. and the ocean is nice and warm here!:grouphug:

I think that’s why Catholics need to Magisterium to discern these issues for you. There is enough common truth for the Magisterium to embrace Protestants as separated siblings based on doctrine alone. Within Mormon doctrine, there is not enough truth in official Mormon doctrine for Catholics and Protestants to embrace Mormons as Christian siblings. Zee is quite the staunch Mormon who is preaching the Mormon gospel on Catholic Answers. Therefore, you cannot embrace Zee as a brother in Christ. That’s all that I am saying. I have no idea how you made the determination that Zee is a follower of Chrsit. I would say that Zee follows the Mormon Jesus which is the different Jesus than then the One we know. Do you believe Muslims to follow Jesus Christ too based on the official Islamic doctrine about Jesus according to the Quran? We believe in the historic Jesus defined within the historic creeds and the Holy Scripture. That is the One True Jesus in which Mormons and Muslims reject.

I know you think you are loving your neighbor by embracing Zee as a brother in Christ. But the truth is that you are being unloving and unkind by making Zee the staunch Mormon your Christian sibling. He is in a very perilous condition, and needs to repent of his sin for embracing the Mormon gospel and the Mormon Jesus. As a sinner in emity with God, Zee needs to repent of Mormonism and turn from it to historic Christianity to find the historic living Jesus Christ who saves sinners from their sins.

Paul was writing about false apostles which is applicable to false prophets like Joesh Smith.

2 Corinthians 11

Paul and the False Apostles

I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.

Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God’s gospel to you free of charge? I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way. As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia. And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do!

And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachments/month_0906/mormonmoonmissionaries_qoEfGT08AKwA.jpg

The Mormon Jesus does not save because he does not exist.

 

[2nd_Adam]

sorry, had to add somthing. i do not believe you belong to a historic orthodox Christian Church either. does that mean i reject you? no it does not. Peace

Go back to your Catholic Catechism in regards to historic Protestants. Actually, I embrace remnant theology; therefore, my church started with the remnant found through out the Old Testament. The remnant church was revealed in Genesis 3. My church is much much older than yours. :harp::flowers::slapfight::hug1:

Of course we both reject the Mormon claim of apostolic succession. However they appear to have a sucession of prophets, and the Catholic Church claims apostolic sucession starting with Peter. Therefore, the Mormon Church is much older than your Catholic Church too.

 

[2nd_Adam]

In Catholicism, a valid Baptism must be performed in the Trinitarian formula; “In the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit”. Mormons do not believe in the Trinity, therefore they do not have valid Baptisms and therefore they are not conscidered Christian as a religion. However, the Church believes of no fault of their own some may fall under the “Baptism of Desire” and only our Trinitarian God knows who they are so we will not pass judgement here. In America everyone has complete access to the Fullness of Truth so there is no excuse for disbelief in the Trinity and that Baptism is required for Salvation.

WhatisTruth

Zee has 5,000 posts on Catholic Answers. I believe he was a Mormon missionoary too. Therefore, he is not ignorant of the truth. Rather, he rejects the truth of our Triune God. Instead of embracing the gospel of grace, he has rejected Paul’s gospel and replaced it with another gospel in full knowledge in what he is doing. He is under the curse stated by Paul.

No Other Gospel

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Paul

 

[Marie5890]

Go back to your Catholic Catechism in regards to historic Protestants. Actually, I embrace remnant theology; therefore, my church started with the remnant found through out the Old Testament. The remnant church was revealed in Genesis 3. My church is much much older than yours. :harp::flowers::slapfight::hug1:

Of course we both reject the Mormon claim of apostolic succession. However they appear to have a sucession of prophets, and the Catholic Church claims apostolic sucession starting with Peter. Therefore, the Mormon Church is much older than your Catholic Church too.

(I have nothing to add to this but just wanted to say I LOVE this emoticon)

:harp: LOVE IT!

 

[2nd_Adam]

(I have nothing to add to this but just wanted to say I LOVE this emoticon)

:harp: LOVE IT!

It’s meant to signify Catholics and Protestants worshipping our Triune God together on Catholic Answers. We are rejoicing in what God has done for us in Christ. :harp:

 

[benidict]

I think that’s why Catholics need to Magisterium to discern these issues for you. There is enough common truth for the Magisterium to embrace Protestants as separated siblings based on doctrine alone. Within Mormon doctrine, there is not enough truth in official Mormon doctrine for Catholics and Protestants to embrace Mormons as Christian siblings. Zee is quite the staunch Mormon who is preaching the Mormon gospel on Catholic Answers. Therefore, you cannot embrace Zee as a brother in Christ. That’s all that I am saying. I have no idea how you made the determination that Zee is a follower of Chrsit. I would say that Zee follows the Mormon Jesus which is the different Jesus than then the One we know. Do you believe Muslims to follow Jesus Christ too based on the official Islamic doctrine about Jesus according to the Quran? We believe in the historic Jesus defined within the historic creeds and the Holy Scripture. That is the One True Jesus in which Mormons and Muslims reject.

I know you think you are loving your neighbor by embracing Zee as a brother in Christ. But the truth is that you are being unloving and unkind by making Zee the staunch Mormon your Christian sibling. He is in a very perilous condition, and needs to repent of his sin for embracing the Mormon gospel and the Mormon Jesus. As a sinner in emity with God, Zee needs to repent of Mormonism and turn from it to historic Christianity to find the historic living Jesus Christ who saves sinners from their sins.

Paul was writing about false apostles which is applicable to false prophets like Joesh Smith.

2 Corinthians 11

Paul and the False Apostles

I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.

Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God’s gospel to you free of charge? I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way. As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia. And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do!

And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/attachments/month_0906/mormonmoonmissionaries_qoEfGT08AKwA.jpg

The Mormon Jesus does not save because he does not exist.

yes, you are quite right brother 2nd. we do need the magisterium to discern these things for us. and here is a big difference between us. i would accept the descision of the magistireum. you and other protestants would leave and start their own man made orginization. i also believe you need to leave the judging of another persons salvation to God. you cannot read a persons heart. that is what i have been saying. you are not going to win over any converts to your side, if all you do is call them heritics, followers of satan, whatever. and i maintain that there are individuals within the mormon church who may very well be brothers and sisters in Christ. how about our friend on other threads who due to no fault of his own, would love to practice Christianity in the open, but due to his governments policies it would cost him his life, so he is forced to outwardly practice islam, when inwardly he is a believer? how would you council him? would you condemn him due to outward apperances or what he is forced to say? would you council him to go out and sacrifice his life? how many mormons are actually true believers, but fear reproach and alienation by their families if they choose to leave? remember even some of the pharisees were followers of Christ secretly. you have no grounds to judge another persons heart, or their standing before the Lord. peace be with you.

 

[2nd_Adam]

yes, you are quite right brother 2nd. we do need the magisterium to discern these things for us. and here is a big difference between us. i would accept the descision of the magistireum. you and other protestants would leave and start their own man made orginization. i also believe you need to leave the judging of another persons salvation to God. you cannot read a persons heart. that is what i have been saying. you are not going to win over any converts to your side, if all you do is call them heritics, followers of satan, whatever. and i maintain that there are individuals within the mormon church who may very well be brothers and sisters in Christ. how about our friend on other threads who due to no fault of his own, would love to practice Christianity in the open, but due to his governments policies it would cost him his life, so he is forced to outwardly practice islam, when inwardly he is a believer? how would you council him? would you condemn him due to outward apperances or what he is forced to say? would you council him to go out and sacrifice his life? how many mormons are actually true believers, but fear reproach and alienation by their families if they choose to leave? remember even some of the pharisees were followers of Christ secretly. you have no grounds to judge another persons heart, or their standing before the Lord. peace be with you.

I can’t expect you to learn biblical discernment. We are commanded to proclaim the gospel and we are commande to defend the gospel. But before you can obey these commands, you have to make sure you understand the gospel.

Jude 1:3

Judgment on False Teachers

Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

 

[benidict]

I can’t expect you to learn biblical discernment. We are commanded to proclaim the gospel and we are commande to defend the gospel. But before you can obey these commands, you have to make sure you understand the gospel.

Jude 1:3

Judgment on False Teachers

Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

hi brother 2nd. as far as biblical discernment goes. im a former reformed baptist. which are very calvinistic to say the least. humanly speaking, i probably know the bible as well as you. i could swap bible verses with you all day long. i used to believe along similar lines as yourself. i used to come across to people the way you do now. as far as defending the gospel, i have had to and will continue to. especially against fundamentalist/protestants who wish to " convert the Catholic." i gave up on my own puffed up " biblical knowledge" quite awhile ago. i found it much better to learn from the Church Christ has set up. not going according to my own understanding as i see you and countless other protestants doing. it is protestestant discernment that has led to 30000+ denominations. the bible and tradition form one deposite of faith. i cannot help you to see that. this will be the end of my discussion on this topic. do not believe it has been proven that i am outside the magisteriums teachings by claiming that there can be and are INDIVIDUALS within the lds that are brothers and sisters in the Lord. peace be with you and ill reserve that palm tree

 

[zerinus]

In Catholicism, a valid Baptism must be performed in the Trinitarian formula; “In the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit”. Mormons do not believe in the Trinity, therefore they do not have valid Baptisms and therefore they are not conscidered Christian as a religion. However, the Church believes of no fault of their own some may fall under the “Baptism of Desire” and only our Trinitarian God knows who they are so we will not pass judgement here. In America everyone has complete access to the Fullness of Truth so there is no excuse for disbelief in the Trinity and that Baptism is required for Salvation.

WhatisTruth

That certainly is not the “truth”. Mormons do believe in the Trinity; but in the Trinity of the Bible, not the false Trinity of historical Christendom. I wrote an article in my Blog to explain this, which you can read here. Mormons also baptize using the Trinitarian formula.

P.S. And as for 2ndAdam’s rants and harangues and personal attacks against me, since his question was directed originally at Catholics, I would rather let them answer him, which I am grateful that they have. The reason why he is mad at me is because I have challenged his false Calvinist theology in other threads in support of Catholic doctrine which he has not been able to answer.

 

[Shaken]

Catholics don’t accept Mormons as Catholics.

 

[zerinus]

Catholics don’t accept Mormons as Catholics.

What makes you think that Mormons what to be called Catholics?

 

[2nd_Adam]

hi brother 2nd. as far as biblical discernment goes. im a former reformed baptist. which are very calvinistic to say the least. humanly speaking, i probably know the bible as well as you. i could swap bible verses with you all day long. i used to believe along similar lines as yourself. i used to come across to people the way you do now. as far as defending the gospel, i have had to and will continue to. especially against fundamentalist/protestants who wish to " convert the Catholic." i gave up on my own puffed up " biblical knowledge" quite awhile ago. i found it much better to learn from the Church Christ has set up. not going according to my own understanding as i see you and countless other protestants doing. it is protestestant discernment that has led to 30000+ denominations. the bible and tradition form one deposite of faith. i cannot help you to see that. this will be the end of my discussion on this topic. do not believe it has been proven that i am outside the magisteriums teachings by claiming that there can be and are INDIVIDUALS within the lds that are brothers and sisters in the Lord. peace be with you and ill reserve that palm tree

LOL… you reap what you sow… That’s what you get for being a Reformed Baptist instead of being a padeo Calvinist! I’m glad you know the Bible better than me, because OT and NT Scripture points to Jesus Christ. His grace is sufficient for you brother… Jesus Christ is completely sufficient for me and you! That is the difference between our views as Christian Calvinists and Christian Catholics.

http://www.toddcrisman.com/img/portfolio/corona-site-home.jpg

Think of me next time you have a Corona on the beach in HAWAII! If you see a Calvinist strolling the beach, offer him a Corona in fellowship. If you see the guys with the white shirts and badges on the beach, please don’t offer them a Corona (they won’t take it anyways).

http://www.monergism.com/images/calvin_hawaii.jpg

I’m predestined to live in Hawaii, but don’t tell my wife.

 

[whatistruth]

That certainly is not the “truth”. Mormons do believe in the Trinity; but in the Trinity of the Bible, not the false Trinity of historical Christendom. I wrote an article in my Blog to explain this, which you can read here. Mormons also baptize using the Trinitarian formula.

P.S. And as for 2ndAdam’s rants and harangues and personal attacks against me, since his question was directed originally at Catholics, I would rather let them answer him, which I am grateful that they have. The reason why he is mad at me is because I have challenged his false Calvinist theology in other threads in support of Catholic doctrine which he has not been able to answer.

Let me make this perfectly clear; I personally talked yesturday to the LDS headquarters and asked them directly; “Is Jesus God and is the Holy Spirit God” they responded “No”. My point is crystal clear, to disclaim the oneness and divinity in Jesus and the Holy Spirit is no belief in the Trinity.

Whatistruth