Does the Catholic Church recognize the story of Noah and the flood as being literally true?

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No - Giglamesh is a corrupted version of the Biblical account.
Uhhh, it predates the Biblical account.

"Because the Epic written in Akkadian predates the Old Testament written in Hebrew, “The most widely accepted explanation today is the second, namely, that the biblical account is based on Babylonian material.”

According to the extant clay tablets, scholars reckon the time of the first compilation of the Epic in Akkadian around the second millennium B.C.4 Since there is a Sumerian version behind the Akkadian, the Epic is, “…upon any view of the date of the Book of Genesis, considerably older than the biblical narrative.

answersingenesis.org/home/area/flood/introduction.asp
 
Hi, itinerant1 -

This is a satire, right?
Anyway, God did all that around 4,000BC, or about the 40th century BC. Before the Sumerians got their act together.

Enjoyed the satire, but you really need to pay attention to YEC arithmetic. :rolleyes: (I wish there were a tongue-in-cheek icon). OECs have good arithmetic, too.:rolleyes:

Do we really have to pay attention to all these creationists?
No, just the Catholic ones :p.
Yikes! :eek:

You are right. I didn’t even catch myself on that as I was doing several things at once when I know I am no good at multi-tasking. As a penance for my inattention I will re-work the whole thing into a chronologically and historically accurate account of much greater length, whatever the maximum number of characters is for a post and CAF, and use it for my standard reply to YEC.

So, an even greater good will come from my error. 😃 The Lord works in mysterious ways. :cool:

Thanks, again!
 
If you are so smart, then you should be able to refute St. Thomas Aquinas’ five proofs for the existence of god with no real problem. So there it is. Refute them
And what is the possible relevance of your remark to the thread topic?
 
Uhhh, it predates the Biblical account.

"Because the Epic written in Akkadian predates the Old Testament written in Hebrew, “The most widely accepted explanation today is the second, namely, that the biblical account is based on Babylonian material.”

According to the extant clay tablets, scholars reckon the time of the first compilation of the Epic in Akkadian around the second millennium B.C.4 Since there is a Sumerian version behind the Akkadian, the Epic is, “…upon any view of the date of the Book of Genesis, considerably older than the biblical narrative.

answersingenesis.org/home/area/flood/introduction.asp
The older Mesopotamian accounts had a long oral tradition as folk tales in the Ancient Near East. So these stories long pre-date the written form in clay tablets. So, we are talking about Flood stories more ancient than the time Abraham departed Chaldea.

Most likely Abraham brought these folk tales with him and they were passed on to his descendants who began re-telling them in a theologically correct form. This re-telling clearly existed as an oral tradition before it came to be written down and incorporated into Genesis.
 
The older Mesopotamian accounts had a long oral tradition as folk tales in the Ancient Near East. So these stories long pre-date the written form in clay tablets. So, we are talking about Flood stories more ancient than the time Abraham departed Chaldea.

Most likely Abraham brought these folk tales with him and they were passed on to his descendants who began re-telling them in a theologically correct form. This re-telling clearly existed as an oral tradition before it came to be written down and incorporated into Genesis.
This seems to make sense.
 
This seems to make sense.
Great minds think alike.

Right now the creationists are scurrying back to their favorite creationist websites to find something to say even though, ultimately, it won’t make much sense.
 
Why is it when we read ancient Chinese documents about a flood so vast “waters reached the sun” our intelligence somehow informs us that this isn’t to be taken literally; yet when we read of a story where Noah brings animals from the four corners of the earth to be saved on the ark – we labor and twist our logic out of rationality to find ways that this could have happened? – maybe a word needs to be said about the supremacy of the literary skills of our ancient forefathers to absolutely captivate their hearers with a great and imaginative story that still resonates in our “sophisticated” age today. Maybe if we give these ancient peoples their intellectual due - maybe we can understand our own age better.

MonFrere/QUOTE

a sadly distorted and twisted version again and again as is usually the case to captivate some unwary readers and hearers.Noah could not and did not bring animals from the four corners of the earth to be saved on the Ark.Maybe if we give these ancient peoples their intellectual due - maybe we can understand our own age better - twinc
 
Great minds think alike.

Right now the creationists are scurrying back to their favorite creationist websites to find something to say even though, ultimately, it won’t make much sense.
I’m not a creationist, but you think that Jesus and Peter were referring to folktales when they were speaking of Noah and the flood? I see no theological reason for them to resort to folktales in order to get God’s salvation message across. Real life has enough examples. There is nothing new under the sun. Ecclesiastes 1:8-10 Some people believe that the Incarnation is a folktale (myth) also.

Well, that’s it for me for this thread. We will agree to disagree. Time will tell who is correct.
 
I believe in God. I just don’t believe that a worldwide flood happened. Or that one man built an ark big enough to store all these animals.
it seems especially for some like yourself that the dimensions of the Ark are given and it seems the Ark would easily store all these 127 kinds of animals in a state of hibernation with very little feeding or slopping out etc - so who is creating the problems - twinc
 
I’m not a creationist, but you think that Jesus and Peter were referring to folktales when they were speaking of Noah and the flood? I see no theological reason for them to resort to folktales in order to get God’s salvation message across. Real life has enough examples. There is nothing new under the sun. Ecclesiastes 1:8-10 Some people believe that the Incarnation is a folktale (myth) also.

Well, that’s it for me for this thread. We will agree to disagree. Time will tell who is correct.
Your criteria are Biblically unsound. Noah is an inspired theological polemic. Jesus and Peter can refer to anything in the Bible as containing God’s message…"As in the days of Noah…etc.

Your underlying assumption is that if an account is referred to by Christ or Peter for its message, then it must be historical. However, an account can be true without being historical, as are some parables in the Bible.

You are speaking from a very different mentality and culture than the one in which the Bible was written.
 
I’m not a creationist, but you think that Jesus and Peter were referring to folktales when they were speaking of Noah and the flood? I see no theological reason for them to resort to folktales in order to get God’s salvation message across. Real life has enough examples. There is nothing new under the sun.
Literalists!!! Great literature is referred to ALL THE TIME to make good point and highlight some truth. St. Paul used pagan literature. We today often speak of “herculean” feats; where the ancient fable has become so ubiquitous as to become an adjective. We speak of stealth in terms of a Trojan horse. Many still use Richard Wagner’s wedding march (a very pagan wedding) as part of their wedding, not because it’s pagan as much as because the music is so good. Christmas itself has many customs that have been “baptized” by the Church to teach the truth of the Incarnation. So with all these examples is it so much of a stretch to see that God has always used stories borrowed from the pagan world and have refashioned them to demonstrate HIS TRUTH. This is the point that we should take from - there is nothing new under the sun. Remember the maxim - talent borrows/genius steals. God’s GENIUS has stolen these ancient legends and has made them into HIS word.

MonFrere
 
a sadly distorted and twisted version again and again as is usually the case to captivate some unwary readers and hearers.Noah could not and did not bring animals from the four corners of the earth to be saved on the Ark.Maybe if we give these ancient peoples their intellectual due - maybe we can understand our own age better - twinc
Like I said before (in the first pages of this thread) - IF there was a true worldwide flood and all like save the life of Noah and those in the ark survived. Just what did the carnivores eat when released from the ark. Those that depended upon eating insects (you know the complete food chain that a worldwide flood would have destroyed) where did they find their food. If the flood was worldwide. In the very short geological time from the flood to now how could the very unique animal kingdom of Africa compared to South America compared to Australia have developed. If all these various life forms were NOT in the ark then with such a very short geological time frame to work with there should be all manner of fossils to demonstrate the rapid change in these creatures. Trace the llama to South America. Trace the kangaroo to Australia. Trace the panda to China. If there was a worldwide flood how on earth did penguins living in the frigid regions of the Arctic appear - especially if Noah didn’t have a few of them with him on the ark. So, I’m turning your premise on its head – if Noah didn’t bring all these creatures with his on the ark how do all these animal kingdoms in all the various ecosystems of the various continents appear and develop in a short 4-5000 years where we have no accounting of these very rapid changes in the fossil record. IF there were a worldwide flood - we would NEED another Gen 1 and another recreation of the earth – yet this does not exist in scripture OR the geological record.

MonFrere
 
What other authorship is there? Don’t tell my you buy into that JEDP mess, especially since it is inherently anti-semitic and anti-Catholic.
The JEDP theory is just that, a theory. It does not in and of itself contradict Catholic teaching and similarly is not anti-Semitic. Maybe there are some who use it in those ways, but it’s a pretty standard theory that is clearly not (in and of itself) contradictory to the Catholic faith.

Catholics are free to believe Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, or not. As long as theories of authorship do not contradict Church teaching, specific questions like these are open to different theories.
 
The evidence, which includes a number of clay tables, plus internal examination of the Mesopotamian and biblical accounts leave no doubt whatsoever, which came first. The biblical story came later, long after Abraham departed his original homeland.
Oh, I thought you meant evidence of Hebrew (Jewish) tablets. sorry for the confusion. I personally agree Gilgamesh came way before the written account in Genesis. Thanks.
 
What other authorship is there? Don’t tell my you buy into that JEDP mess, especially since it is inherently anti-semitic and anti-Catholic.
There is nothing inherently anti-semitic and anti-Catholic about claiming multiples authors for the Pentateuch. Where did you get such an idea?
 
The JEDP theory is just that, a theory. It does not in and of itself contradict Catholic teaching and similarly is not anti-Semitic. Maybe there are some who use it in those ways, but it’s a pretty standard theory that is clearly not (in and of itself) contradictory to the Catholic faith.

Catholics are free to believe Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, or not. As long as theories of authorship do not contradict Church teaching, specific questions like these are open to different theories.
Right on!

The concept of “authorship” in regard to the diversity of “books” in the bible is a broad notion. “Authorship” does not mean that a particular person, i.e. Moses, had to personally pen the final manuscripts of the Pentateuch. There existed oral transmission of teachings long before anything was written down. It is enough that these traditions in some significant way originated with Moses. The final redactor of the various oral traditions, and sometimes written accounts, which often vary in details, composed the written Biblical work under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Textual analysis reveals the interweaving of mostly three and sometimes four sacred traditions in the Pentateuch.

Another example of “authorship” involves the Wisdom of Solomon. It is widely agreed among biblical scholars that Solomon himself did not write Ws. It was a common technique among the ancients to name their work after an important person in order to call attention to the importance of their work.

Again, the NT book Hebrews was not written by Paul himself. It appears to be written by someone in Paul’s inner circle. And so it reflects perfectly Pauline doctrine, but the author himself we can say is Paul only in the broad sense of authorship. Nonetheless, it was probably Barnabas who penned the work.

By way of analogy I would say that Christ was fully Divine and fully human, except for sin. Likewise, Scripture is fully divine and fully human, except for errors in teaching God’s message.

Scripture is fully human in the sense that human literary genres common to a cultural milieu are used in the bible under Divine inspiration. Inspiration does not involve dictation word for word. (Note that Church documents regarding the bible have used the word “dictation” in a sense other than our modern one.). If literal dictation, in the modern sense of the term, were the case, God would be guilty of some poor grammar, among other things.

A proper and deeper understanding of Scripture is obtained by understanding the ancient literary genres used and how they each function in their own way to communicate the author’s message. The literary genre or genus litterarium is the vehicle that conveys the message. Understanding how that vehicle operates is the key to unlocking the deepest parts of the message.

It is not necessary to know the details of theories about multiple traditions to understand the Pentateuch. What is more important is to correctly understand the *genus litterarium *of any particular text. In so doing, we grasp what the author is actually teaching. Hence, we won’t look for a scientific account of creation in Genesis 1, any more than we will waste our time on reports of Ark sightings or global inundations. Such useless distractions detract from the message of the biblical accounts.
 
Well I can’t imagine a global flood because it is scientifically impossible. Unless the global flood was because every bit of ice on the earth melted, it COULD NOT HAPPEN. And, if anything, the time of the flood was during an ice age. AND the bible said it was a result of rain…which is not possible. It is also not possible to get 2 of every species (or 7 of some animals or whatever version you want to believe) on a boat together. It would not be possible for a man to live 100 years to create the ark or however long it was said to take, and there is no way one man could even construct an ark that big, no matter how long he had. This story, at least how it is told in the Bible, is as likely as Jack in the Bean Stalk or any other fairy tale.

Also, if you were on a boat, do you really think you would be able to tell if the whole world was flooded?? How is that even possible. You can only see so far. If you were in the middle of the of the ocean you could make the argument that the whole world is flooded!!!..and judging only by what you could see, it would sure seem that way. But the whole world wasn’t flooded, you were just stupid and in the middle of the ocean.
I agree that the story as you tell it is ridiculous but there is no mention of species but only of kinds[127 kinds]and not being totally aware in the boat as to whether it was just a local flood or global they took proper steps to find out so please read the original account carefully and not one of the many fudged accounts -anyway btw where did all the sand in the deserts all around the world come from when they were not there originally or the marine fossils on mountain tops and deserts -twinc
 
it seems especially for some like yourself that the dimensions of the Ark are given and it seems the Ark would easily store all these 127 kinds of animals in a state of hibernation with very little feeding or slopping out etc - so who is creating the problems - twinc
btw where does the crazy idea originate that one man built the Ark - twinc
 
btw where does the crazy idea originate that one man built the Ark - twinc
Your question presupposes and assumes an erroneous literalism in interpreting a literary genre that is a theological polemic.
 
it seems especially for some like yourself that the dimensions of the Ark are given and it seems the Ark would easily store all these 127 kinds of animals in a state of hibernation with very little feeding or slopping out etc - so who is creating the problems - twinc
I don’t know, do you think that you could build an ark by yourself? Or that you could live to 600 years old or however noah was? Or that you could gather 127 animals. Or feed them for an extended period of time (what if they had to eat other animals). And if there was only 127 animals, why do we have millions of animals now? Wouldn’t we still have 127 animals? Why are you saying animals hibernate, when most obviously don’t?
 
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