(name removed by moderator);9431636:
Jesus is clear in that passage that one is born again by water and the Holy Spirit - that is to say, the Sacrament of Baptism.
Not the Holy Spirit alone, or water alone, but both, together and at the end of the Gospel of Matthew, he specifies that Baptism must be done in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
An emotional experience is not a Sacrament.
That’s just untrue. It’s a claim that comes up over and over and over on this forum, but it isn’t so. And the fact that Catholics think it’s so makes the OP’s point. Clearly Catholics in many cases aren’t studying the Bible outside Mass, or they’d know that there’s a lot they aren’t hearing in Mass!
The question should be then what of that 86.5% is not included and why? I would venture a guess that it is large portions of Leviticus and numbers, Ruth. Proverbs. I believe that there are only 1 or 2 readings from Tobit the same with other books from the duetro-canonicals. Another good question would be are those who attend these Protestant services even getting this much exposure and are they studying in there Bible studies them?
I don’t understand what you expect to see. What reaction should other people give you as a sign that they are filled with the Holy Spirit?
The Catholic Church ardently DOES advocate being ‘Born Again’. We just call it the Sacrament of Baptism.
Perhaps they should fall on the ground, foam at the mouth, and babble senselessly.
For some reason this reminds me of a poster who wrote some time back that his professor once told his class (probably hyperbolically) to throw their English Bibles in the trash. But then I doubt if many nuns are teaching Latin or Greek these days either.
Jesus says (Mk. 16:127 & 18): “These signs shall FOLLOW the Believers…” That is, Believers in JESUS. In the expereince of Millions, those asking Jesus to be their Lord and Master, are led to a second Baptism, a laying on of hands, and immediately begin to demonstrate those signs. Tongues seem to be the most common initial gift, followed by Healing and Exorcism. All in the NAME OF JESUS. I have both watched and laid hands on the sick and driven out demons - IN THE NAME OF JESUS: I must stress that JESUS does the healing and driving out of demons. When you have been given the authority to use HIS name and witnessed a miracle you, like me, will look at your own hands in astonishment: “did I do that?” Swiftly followed by a gentle voice “no, Ian, (Mary, Ann, Richard (He will call you by your name!
), I did!” I don’t need to see the signs, but others do, to draw them to Jesus. Often, there are no instant miracles (except for exorcism: I KNOW that the other fellow hates Christians and, as one of the 72 said, “I saw Satan falling like lightning!” (Luke 10:18).
but I have felt that, once I have done my job, the healing is in the Lord’s time.
I have been to Charismatic meetings for thirty years and I think I’ve only seen that twice. No need to call an exorcist, one has already driven out the demon, who is resisting expulsion. Demons even argued with Jesus (Matt 8:28 - 34) in the incident my sister used to call “the gaberdine swine!” But normally they flee at the Name of Jesus. Be warned, don’t try this alone, unless your faith is strong. Even then two is better, to watch each other’s backs.Perhaps they should fall on the ground, foam at the mouth, and babble senselessly.
(I’ve been tempted to call an exorcist to some of these Charismatic meetings that I’ve seen.)
Never, and I mean never attempt an exorcism yourself, as a lay person, or lay people. The only people who should be messing with that stuff are those very holy priests who’ve been officially appointed by Rome to the office of Exorcist. Other than them (or unless they request your assistance) don’t go anywhere near it - you could become badly hurt. It’s not a game.
Not a game, indeed, but if you believe in Rome, don’t go near it. If you believe in Jesus, He says (Mark 16:17 again). “These signs shall follow the believer…In my Name they will drive out demons.” But those whom the signs DO follow don’t go demon-hunting. But they do not fear demons either: the Name of Jesus used by a believer is far greater than powers and principalities. If Charlie comes a-pestering, as is his wont, we have learnt how powerful the Name of Jesus is. I recall one particularly persistent pest and I asked the Lord why it hung around. Jesus answered, “My brother has some good advice on that, Ian.” I looked up James 4:7: “Resist the devil and he will flee from you.”
We must not be virgins RELYING on others–WE MUST BE CARRYING OUR LAMPS WITH THE BRIDEGROOM. THIS IS FROM JESUS: 1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of the virgins were foolish, and five were wise. 3 When the foolish ones took their lamps, they did not take extra266 olive oil with them. 4 But the wise ones took flasks of olive oil with their lamps. 5 When the bridegroom was delayed a long time,267 they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Look, the bridegroom is here! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’ 9 ‘No,’ they replied. ‘There won’t be enough for you and for us. Go instead to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 But while they had gone to buy it, the bridegroom arrived, and those who were ready went inside with him to the wedding banquet. Then the door was shut. 11 Later, the other virgins came too, saying, ‘Lord, lord! Let us in!’ 12 But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you!’ 13 Therefore stay alert, because you do not know the day or the hour” (Matthew 25:1-13). [NEW ENGLISH TRANSLATION]
when done to make another LOOK FOOLISH. <3+WENDY There is some confusion over terminology. Some people call born again believing to be Saved, some people called Saved being baptized in the Holy Spirit, some people call baptism in the Holy Spirit THE BAPTISM IN WATER. We just need to get our terms STRAIGHT.This is a clear teaching, not to be contradicted by some guy with a divinity degree from a mail-order catalog who wants to be the guy everyone follows. Jesus appointed a church to teach us, and He gave it the authority to teach.
Where in the Bible are “Sacraments” specified, too? Why are some Church actions deemed ultra-holy and others, equally sacred, demoted? Those who have received the laying on of hands Baptism of the Spirit would define the signs that Jesus speaks of as positively Spiritual experiences rather than “emotional”. To our view, the second (emotive?) Baptism of the Spirit should be a Sacrament, ratified and confirmed by the immediate granting of the signs, the gifts and later the fruits of the Spirit. To those infilled (WE will make our abode with you) the law is written on hearts of flesh rather than tablets of stone. Don’t ask me why, but I can’t even park on a double-yellow line or a disabled space. I just can’t!!!Respectfully, you miss the point of the passage completely, this passage does not apply to this topic without some huge leaps. I would suggest a good bible with solid interpretation, if you are williing.We must not be virgins RELYING on others–WE MUST BE CARRYING OUR LAMPS WITH THE BRIDEGROOM. THIS IS FROM JESUS: 1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of the virgins were foolish, and five were wise. 3 When the foolish ones took their lamps, they did not take extra266 olive oil with them. 4 But the wise ones took flasks of olive oil with their lamps. 5 When the bridegroom was delayed a long time,267 they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Look, the bridegroom is here! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’ 9 ‘No,’ they replied. ‘There won’t be enough for you and for us. Go instead to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 But while they had gone to buy it, the bridegroom arrived, and those who were ready went inside with him to the wedding banquet. Then the door was shut. 11 Later, the other virgins came too, saying, ‘Lord, lord! Let us in!’ 12 But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you!’ 13 Therefore stay alert, because you do not know the day or the hour” (Matthew 25:1-13). [NEW ENGLISH TRANSLATION]
You might say that those going to teachers ARE filling their lamps. What would you say about those turning down others who asked for some of their OIL? Is that not l ike asking teachers for teaching? The wise virgins are going to PROVIDERS OF OIL. The foolish virgins are going to EACH OTHER FOR BORROWED OIL. THEY ARE NOT GETTING IT T HEMSELVES. THE PURPOSE OF THE CHURCH IS TO EQUIP BELIEVERS SO THAT THEY CAN STAND ON THEIR OWN TWO FEET AND NOT ALWAYS BE BEING TAUGHT BY OTHERS. The next step for the Ethiopian ministered to by Philip would have been to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit the apostles asked believers if they had had yet BECAUSE THEY NEEDED IT. Our ultimate destiny is, “You have no need any teach you” AND “You should be teaching”… We are to be mature believers and not always “getting our oil” from another believer BUT GOING TO THE SOURCE… JESUS told us the ONLY teacher IS THE MESSIAH AND HE WOULD SEND US THE HOLY SPIRIT TO REMIND US OF ALL HE SAID AND TO LEAD US INTO ALL THAT HE HAD NOT TOLD US YET. Criticizing capitals is immaturity
