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PRmerger
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Do you have a Scripture verse that says this?
(That’s another man-made tradition to which you’ve succumbed, Ralphy.)
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(That’s another man-made tradition to which you’ve succumbed, Ralphy.)
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ralphy
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I do not have a scripture verse that says there was no apostolic succession, so I can assume that you have scriptural verses to prove that there was, right. In Christian love. Ralph
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ralphy
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In this case am I to believe that the RCC is the body that determines those who have this “apostolic” succession, or do not have it. If so, this sounds like a “man made” situation to me. The spirit I choose to follow, is the Holy Spirit. In Christian love. Ralph
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PRmerger
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Again, that’s YOUR man-made tradition, Ralphy, not ours.
It’s like a mathematician challenging me to prove God’s existence using math alone. Why should I have to use math alone?
Incidentally, you are violating your very own criterion, then, by saying you do not have a Scripture verse that says “whatever power was given to them at the time Christ was with them died with them”.
So, in our brief conversation you’ve already admitted to two man-made traditions–things you believe which are not in Scripture.
It would be quite hypocritical of you, wouldn’t it, then to object to Catholic teaching on, say, Purgatory, as being a man-made tradition, if you have them yourself, right?
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ralphy
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I assumed that you would send me a scripture verse or verses to prove that this “apostolic” succession was a fact, and these verses would verify it. I cannot give you a scripture verse to prove something that is untrue, like “apostolic” succession. In Christian love, Ralph.Again, that’s YOUR man-made tradition, Ralphy, not ours.
It’s like a mathematician challenging me to prove God’s existence using math alone. Why should I have to use math alone?
Incidentally, you are violating your very own criterion, then, by saying you do not have a Scripture verse that says “whatever power was given to them at the time Christ was with them died with them”.
So, in our brief conversation you’ve already admitted to two man-made traditions–things you believe which are not in Scripture.
It would be quite hypocritical of you, wouldn’t it, then to object to Catholic teaching on, say, Purgatory, as being a man-made tradition, if you have them yourself, right?
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Tomster
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Who takes the lead in calling for the selection of a replacement for Judas Iscariot? Peter, the first Pope. After Jesus Christ’s Ascension into heaven, Peter’s first act was to initiate the selection of a new Apostle to replace Judas Iscariot. See Acts 1:15-26. :compcoff:
Matthias was given the role of Apostle (ambassador of Christ) that Judas Iscariot had occupied, and he also occupied in the community the office of episkopoi, meaning overseer. Besides being ambassadors of Christ, the Apostles also were overseers (later bishops), acting as shepherds, of the flock.
:tiphat: Hope this helps!
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PRmerger
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Why should I follow YOUR man-made tradition, Ralphy?
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Tomster
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Tomster
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Oh, I’m really sure that ol’ Ralphy would really love it if you did PR. But I, for one, know that would be impossible. For it is impossible for the blind to lead anyone, anywhere.
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ralphy
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Hello to you.The word of God is like a two edged sword. RalphRalphy, oh Ralphy! Where DID you go?
Another hit and run?
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Tomster
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Please interpret the Scripture passage that you have alluded to for us ralph. Remember, no extra-biblical sources please. Just you and the Bible if you don’t mind.
Your welcome BTW. Did you happen to read Acts 1:20-26? I answered your question regarding the Biblical reference to Apostolic Succession. No doubt, though, you will mangle these verses. But, go ahead if you will. This should be interesting.
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ralphy
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This quote about a “two edged sword” if found in Heb 4:12-13. It shows the power of the word of God, which severs the truth from the untruth. Acts 1:20-26 must be the wrong scripture, I see no apostolic succession" in these verses. In Christian love, Ralph
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PRmerger
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Ralphy, where is the verse that says that there is no apostolic succession?
And where is the verse that says that all we believe about God must be found in Scripture?
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Tomster
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I didn’t think you would see it ralphy.
Suggestion: get a good eye exam, a new prescription and and re-read the passages. They are a real eye-opener. :newidea:
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Tomster
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And at this point of the discussion, this refers to what?
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Tomster
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He doesn’t know.
The only thing he knows and believes is what his fallible pastor tells him.
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DaveBus
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Ralph and others: I address this to all of you brothers in Christ. I am a recent convert to the Catholic Church from the Protestant evangelical movement. I consider myself an evangelical Catholic, I believe that the Catholic Church teaches that we all need to have a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ and I believe that we most definitely need to have a spirit of evangelism in which we do our best to share the good news by word and particularly by deed. I have been following this thread intermittently but not religiously so forgive me if I plow already tilled ground. I must say that I am disapointed at the tenor of the discussion at times, it seems to get fairly disrespectful. I wish that we could all agree to what we have in common, becuase it far outweighs what divides us. Let me make a couple of points that probably won’t clear the air but hopefully will shed some light on the subject. Ralph of course is right to stress the importance of scripture. Paul writes in 2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” For reference 2 Timothy was probably written in the 50’s, approx 20 years give or take after the resurrection of Jesus. Many of the books of the new testament were probably being written in that time period but they were often epistles (letters) written to specific individuals or church groups. They were far from being compiled into what we now know as the New Testament. Were they still scripture ? Yes, but most likely Paul’s reference above was predominantley to the Old Testament. That being said what was the predominant method for teaching the early Christians from the time of Jesus’s death and resurrection to the 50’s? It would have to be the old testament and oral tradition. There was nothing else for reference. If you read 1 Timothy 3:15 Paul states that “the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of of the truth.” So he describes all scripture as God breathed and effective for training, rightly so, but he describes the church of the living God (not the bible) as the pillar and foundation of truth. He definitely opens the door to tradition here and the history of the scriptures leaves us no other option then to realize that the early church relied on oral tradtion for at least the first 20 years becuase there were no new testament scriptures available at that time. Now if you will turn to 2 Thessalonians 2:15 you will read “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” This is Paul commanding the Church of Thessalonica to hold to the teachings passed on by “word of mouth” (oral tradition) and by letter. Lastly if you will turn to John 21:25 where the Apostle John states: “Jesus did many other things as well. I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” I think that speaks for itself, there is not room in books to write down everything that Jesus did or said. Ralph, with all respect, I was right where you were 5 years ago, but when I read those passages with an open mind there was no way for me to discount the role that tradition plays in the life of the Church, your church and mine. Now my point has been, in this peice, to point out that oral tradition does play a role in the foundation and development of the Church. Discussing and dissection of particular teachings of the Church is not answered here. I am just pointing out that the bible and history hold that oral tradition was part of the foundation of the Christian church. By the way,I do not believe that the Catholic Church teaches that non-catholic Christians are anathema. Respectfully In Christ (to the best of my ability) Dave
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jlhargus
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JL: Christ chose, prayed for and SENT one specific VISIBLE group, the Apostles Fellowship, whom he sanctified through the truth. Hearing their word and being ONE in fellowship, with THEM, the world may believe the Father sent him.
[Mt28:16 Then **THE ELEVEN disciples WENT away into Galilee, INTO A MOUNTAIN where JESUS had APPOINTED them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And JESUS came and SPAKE UNTO THEM, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 GO ye therefore, and **TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING ** them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.]
So what did Christ mean when he said to those eleven apostles? GO TEACH ALL NATIONS BAPTIZING, I am with YOU ALWAYS, UNTO THE END. Didn’t Christ know those men wouldn’t be on earth till the end, to teach, with the authority of Christ, as priest, king and prophet? Of course he did, he could only be with that SENT FELLOWSHIP thru succession by laying on of hands passing on the gift of the Holy Spirit from bishop to bishop till the end.
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jlhargus
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JL: You are correct power DOES NOT come from “man”, but thru the Holy Spirit given thur the sacrament of Holy Orders, ordination, by laying of hands. The GIFT of the Holy Spirit to enable an ordained minister to fulfill his mission, as priest, sanctify thur the sacraments, especially the sacrafice of the Eucharist, and preaching the Word of God. King, to govern so the body of Chirst will be ONE, that the world may believe the Father SENT him. Prophet, to proclaim the Word of God to the whole world till the end.
[Rm 15:15 But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder because of the grace given me by God 16 **to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable sanctified by the Holy Spirit ] Scripture taken from the HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 Biblica. Used by permission of Zondervan. All rights reserved. The “NIV” and “New International Version” trademarks are registered in the United States Patent and Trademark Office by Biblica. Use of either trademark requires the permission of Biblica.
[2Tim1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou STIR UP THE GIFT OF GOD, which is IN THEE BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS. 7 For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; **BUT OF POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.]
[Tm4:2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all long suffering and doctrine.] {PRIEST SANCTIFY}
[Titus1:5 FOR THIS CAUSE LEFT I THEE IN CRETE, that THOU SHOULDEST SET IN ORDER the THINGS that are WANTING, AND **ORDAIN ELDERS IN EVERY CITY, AS I had APOINTED THEE.] EVERY CITY, show me a valid SENT minister in the NT who was not ordained by laying on of hands of an apostle or one they ordained?
[Titus1:7 For A BISHOP must be blameless, as THE STEWARD OF GOD; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 HOLDING FAST THE FAITHFUL WORD **AS HE HATH BEEN TAUGHT, THAT he may be able BY SOUND DOCTRINE both to EXHORT and TO CONVINCE the gainsayers.
[Titus1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, THAT THEY MAY BE **SOUND IN THE FAITH;]
[Titus2:1 But SPEAK thou the THINGS WHICH BECOME SOUND DOCTRINE: 2 THAT the aged MEN BE sober, grave, temperate, SOUND IN FAITH, in charity, in patience.]
[Titus2:15 THESE things SPEAK, and EXHORT, and REBUKE **WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.]
[Acts14:23 And WHEN THEY HAD **ORDAINED them ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.]
[Acts20:28 TAKE HEED therefore unto yourselves, and TO ALL THE FLOCK, over the WHICH THE HOLY GHOST HATH MADE YOU OVERSEERS, TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD, which he hath PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.]
[1 TIM 5:17 Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE.] {RULE KING}
[1Tim4:13 Till I come, GIVE ATTENDANCE TO READING, to EXHORTATION, TO DOCTRINE. 14 NEGLECT NOT THE GIFT that is IN THEE, which was GIVEN thee by prophecy, WITH THE LAYING ON OF THE HANDS of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 TAKE HEED UNTO THYSELF, and **UNTO THE DOCTRINE; CONTINUE IN THEM: for in DOING THIS thou SHALT both SAVE THYSELF, AND THEM THAT HEAR THEE.]
[Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT] Jer23:21 I HAVE NOT SENT THESE PROPHETS, yet they ran: I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO THEM, yet they prophesied.] Those not sent are false teachers.] 1Jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God HEARTH US; he that is not of God heareth not US. HEREBY KNOW WE the spirit of TRUTH, AND the spirit of ERROR.]
JL: The power and authority of Christ as priest, king and prophet. The gifts of miracles, healings, tongues etc. are not part of ordination. Those gifts are open to anyone who earnestly seeks them and the Holy Spirit wills to give for the building up of the Church.
[Hb 2:4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by **gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will.
1Cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1Cor 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.
1Cor 12:11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines]
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jlhargus
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JL: Good grief! How many wives did Paul have or John or Timothy? How many Portestant pastors do you know who have had more than ONE wife? I know several.
[Rm 15:15 But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder because of the grace given me by God 16 **to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable sanctified by the Holy Spirit ] Scripture taken from the HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 Biblica. Used by permission of Zondervan. All rights reserved. The “NIV” and “New International Version” trademarks are registered in the United States Patent and Trademark Office by Biblica. Use of either trademark requires the permission of Biblica.
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Korah, an Israelite also thought all the people could function as priests, without a ministerial priesthood. He instigated a rebellion against Moses and Aaron, saying you make yourself a prince over us, Long story short Moses told them to offer incense the function of a priest, they did and the ground opened and swallowed them up, Nbs16:1-
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