Does the SSPX speak uncharitably of the Jews?

[chosen_people]

Canon 24, "
24. Cruel avarice has so seized the hearts of some that though they glory in the name of Christians they provide the Saracens with arms and wood for helmets, and become their equals or even their superiors in wickedness and supply them with arms and necessaries to attack Christians. There are even some who for gain act as captains or pilots in galleys or Saracen pirate vessels. Therefore we declare that such persons should be cut off from the communion of the church and be excommunicated for their wickedness, that catholic princes and civil magistrates should confiscate their possessions, and that if they are captured they should become the slaves of their captors. We order that throughout the churches of maritime cities frequent and solemn excommunication should be pronounced against them. Let those also be under excommunication who dare to rob Romans or other Christians who sail for trade or other honourable purposes. Let those also who in the vilest avarice presume to rob shipwrecked Christians, whom by the rule of faith they are bound to help, know that they are excommunicated unless they return the stolen property.
26. Jews and Saracens are not to be allowed to have christian servants in their houses, either under pretence of nourishing their children or for service or any other reason. Let those be excommunicated who presume to live with them. We declare that the evidence of Christians is to be accepted against Jews in every case, since Jews employ their own witnesses against Christians, and that those who prefer Jews to Christians in this matter are to lie under anathema, since Jews ought to be subject to Christians and to be supported by them on grounds of humanity alone. If any by the inspiration of God are converted to the christian faith, they are in no way to be excluded from their possessions, since the condition of converts ought to be better than before their conversion. If this is not done, we enjoin on the princes and rulers of these places, under penalty of excommunication, the duty to restore fully to these converts the share of their inheritance and goods.

What u did was selective qouting.

Gregory VII said that because it wouldn’t be a good role model for Christians. Kind of find it funny what you say something so slanderous about one of our Catholic saints. Shame on you.

Calling the Church fathers anti-semitic is pretty libelous. Tell that to Pinchas Lapide.

I seriously pray that your trying to be facetious

 

[bear06]

The SSPX adopts the views of Denis Fahey and Jewish Naturalism - this is outrageous antisemitism

Okay - you say that SSPX isn’t Roman Catholicism - reread the posts on this thread by people who claim to be RC - this is classic stuff - some of you would have made Fahey blush -

Now this is silly. Because many Jews(and way more than the sspxers who hold crazy views on the holocaust)believe that it’s fine and dandy to rip apart a baby in the womb I am to believe that this is the Jewish faith?

What I find truly outrageous are the claims that all Jews bear some kind of common guilt for the crucifixion of Jesus 2000 years ago but 2000 thousand years of persecution of the Jews by the Catholic Church,its clergy and its adherents somehow
is disconnected to Catholicism and Catholics. Not only do all Catholics share a common guilt and responsibility for the persecution of the Jews but its obvious that good Church going Catholics - not only those of the SSPX- are being steeped daily by their Priests and congregations in antisemitism

.
So you have a problem with Jews being lumped together but it’s OK to lump Catholics?

I see people post the most terrible antisemitic things here and there’s no massive response against them - the moderator doesn’t edit or intervene - and if I point out the antisemitism the only response is some sort of defensive denial that the antisemitism posted here is connected to the Catholic faith and Christianity - What’s its source then? Take
a few minutes and reread the things posted in this thread - if you understand that they are antisemitic than why haven’t you and others reacted more strongly - if you can’t see the antisemitism - if the posts are just telling things the way they are - than you’re part of the problem.

Uh, if you’ll notice, I’m probably the first person or one of the first who posted all of the derogatory things that the SSPX has said.

It really won’t matter what any of us Catholics say to you. I’d suggest that you go to Thomas Lifson over at American Thinker. (This isn’t a “go away” I just think you might take his opinions better than ours) I’m sure he’d love to debate this with you, a fellow Jew (not of the Catholic variety either). Of course that would make him an anti-semitic Jew.

 

[bones_IV]

I seriously pray that your trying to be facetious

And your post is an insult to me.

 

[chosen_people]

Now this is silly. Because many Jews(and way more than the sspxers who hold crazy views on the holocaust)believe that it’s fine and dandy to rip apart a baby in the womb I am to believe that this is the Jewish faith?

reply:

Jews believe a fetus becomes a human being when its head begins to leave the womb. We obviously don’t believe in original sin and the need for baptism to be saved. If a young Mother’s life was in danger and it was necessary to choose between the Mother and the unborn fetus, in Judaism you would save the Mother and in Catholicism you would save the fetus. Orthodox Jews object to abortions. What did all this have to do Catholic antisemitism? Is the basis for it differing views of the beginning of human life and original sin?

So you have a problem with Jews being lumped together but it’s OK to lump Catholics?

reply:

If Christians want to hold Jews collectively guilty for the murder of another Jew by the Romans some 2000 thousand years ago I feel this is the only proper response. Besides I’m reacting to something here and now on this thread - in the street tomorrow - maybe its time we became as preocupied with you as you are with us - maybe its time we started having the same kind of outrageous beliefs about Christians as they do about the Jews.

Uh, if you’ll notice, I’m probably the first person or one of the first who posted all of the derogatory things that the SSPX has said.

reply:

Yes I did and therefore I felt that we could carry on a dialogue - As you might have noticed I didn’t mention anyone specifically

It really won’t matter what any of us Catholics say to you. I’d suggest that you go to Thomas Lifson over at American Thinker. (This isn’t a “go away” I just think you might take his opinions better than ours) I’m sure he’d love to debate this with you, a fellow Jew (not of the Catholic variety either). Of course that would make him an anti-semitic Jew.

reply:

I find it facinating that antisemitism is so ingrained that everyone just thinks that derogatory things about Jews are to be expected and accepted. However its seemingly forbiden for me to even criticize the making of the deragotory remark and of course the other side is not to be expected to actually weigh their actions and pause for a moment to reflect.

 

[bear06]

reply:

I find it facinating that antisemitism is so ingrained that everyone just thinks that derogatory things about Jews are to be expected and accepted. However its seemingly forbiden for me to even criticize the making of the deragotory remark and of course the other side is not to be expected to actually weigh their actions and pause for a moment to reflect.

Where have I said either? To my knowledge, I didn’t enter into your little debate until you said that anti-semitism is Catholic. I stuck with the topic of the thread which is the fact that there have been members of SSPX heirarchy who have spoken uncharitably of the Jews. Even with this in mind and my concerns about the SSPX, I wouldn’t say that everyone who attend the chapels or even runs them holds this view.

 

[chosen_people]

Where have I said either? To my knowledge, I didn’t enter into your little debate until you said that anti-semitism is Catholic. I stuck with the topic of the thread which is the fact that there have been members of SSPX heirarchy who have spoken uncharitably of the Jews. Even with this in mind and my concerns about the SSPX, I wouldn’t say that everyone who attend the chapels or even runs them holds this view.

where is it coming from? What are its reasons? why won’t it stop?

 

[chosen_people]

And your post is an insult to me.

I didn’t mean to insult you = I posted several posts detailing 2000 thousand years of human suffering and that was your reply -to reprint the Cannons and try to justify them - that Jews are a “bad influence”. I’m speechless.

 

[maurin]

I have always said that Jewish humans are individuals. )

Oh, Thank God, that you’ve always said that. it certainly isn’t clear at all from your posts.

By the way, and this is a sincere question. Many Popes and Saints, I think, passed on a geocentric model of the universe…is that true?

 

[bear06]

where is it coming from? What are its reasons? why won’t it stop?

The SSPX’s point of view? It’s called original sin.

 

[Kristopher]

This is a question that I have wanted to ask for a long time. My co-worker, a member of SSPX, has extremely unkind things to say when speaking of Jews. … I want to ask if [prejidice] is common?
st julie

Dear St. Julie,

You can open your Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), or visit vatican.va and view what, unfortunately, has typified views of Jews within Christianity: some replies to your post already address this; however, there does seem to be confusion. It might be pertinent, appropriately to the point for you to confront the view of your co-worker and state very simply to this SSPX member: the unkindess you speak about Judaism is rash, and worthy of confession; furthermore, your ignorance of the mass extant, still in existence since the late 1400’s is unfortunate–you as a Traditionalist should be well enough familiar that mass in the tradition of the altar against the wall, and the priest with back to the congregation reflects the Crucifixion of Jesus, and those of us: congregation and clergy alike, are the Jews and the Romans at the point of witness, of Jesus’ death, his crucifiction–his death is on our hands; we were his enemies, and he loved us not only with his first breath, but also with what we all witnessed is his last.

This is the attitude about the Jews we are instructed to possess within our CCC, this is the re-enactment of the mass: Calvary, we are the Jews; we are the Romans; we are St. Peter, when he denied his lord.

This is what your co-worker would need to be mindful of–it would seem in anycase, the view was harbored not only by SSPXers, but also by Catholics in America, and in Hitler’s Germany–heretical Catholics such as Martin Luther held such anti-Semitic views, shamefully forgetting their place before the altar during the mass. This facilitated Hitler’s fascisim throughout Germany, because it was already within the psyche of the people to harbor resentment toward the Jews, toward Judaism: Hitler promised that Catholicism would be the religion taught in all schools; he fed the superiority of a Catholic to a Jew to those whom already identified Catholicism as superior to Judaism; though, God by way of creating the image of God at the moment each of us were conceived within our own mothers is always calling us to love, and to serve Him.

Prejudice against Jews has been common among Traditionalists long before the creation of SSPX in the 1970’s, and it is in part the reason Pope John XXIII sought to reinvigorate Catholicism through Vatican II: Catholicism was in sore need of it, and these elements of what some say is only the promotion of a liberal agenda through the media, a liberal agenda once decidedly Catholic in many respects, you should note has not been without cause, but for very good reason–we forget the importance of our place at the foot of the cross on calvary.

Most sincerely,

Kristopher

 

[chosen_people]

The SSPX’s point of view? It’s called original sin.

Therefore my assertation is correct!

 

[chosen_people]

Oh, Thank God, that you’ve always said that. it certainly isn’t clear at all from your posts.

QUOTE]

I’m so glad he thinks the Jews are individuals, this is really a relief!

Can you find out if we’re also human beings?

Please ask him for me

Thanks in advance

 

[chosen_people]

This is a question that I have wanted to ask for a long time. My co-worker, a member of SSPX, has extremely unkind things to say when speaking of Jews. I wondered if this was a local issue or is it quite common. I am a baby boomer and I have to say that I did not know that my Father possessed the same thoughts. During my growing up years he never had a opportunity to say them. My learning was therefore formed by JPll. so I want to ask if prejidice is common?
st julie

I don"t know about other peoples prejudice but this what you had to say about the Jews and Catholic pesecution and antisemitism

“You point out that Catholic leaders have persecuted Jews for 2000 years. Unless you attribute any negative comment as persecution then I say the generalization is BUNK. You make your ancestors into weak snivelling cowards when in fact they were smart, resourseful and occarionally cunning. Usury caused the greatest angers , but I think you know that. You talk about “ghettos” as something terrible but the Jewish need to remain separate meant that they created many of their own neighborhoods.”

I think you should read my posts #88 - #96 where I detail the “Bunk” and “negative comments” of Catholic leaders and you can learn about the ghettoes and how Jews were placed there by these Catholic leaders as part of their “negative comments”

 

[chosen_people]

Dear St. Julie,

You can open your Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), or visit vatican.va and view what, unfortunately, has typified views of Jews within Christianity: some replies to your post already address this; however, there does seem to be confusion. It might be pertinent, appropriately to the point for you to confront the view of your co-worker and state very simply to this SSPX member: the unkindess you speak about Judaism is rash, and worthy of confession; furthermore, your ignorance of the mass extant, still in existence since the late 1400’s is unfortunate–you as a Traditionalist should be well enough familiar that mass in the tradition of the altar against the wall, and the priest with back to the congregation reflects the Crucifixion of Jesus, and those of us: congregation and clergy alike, are the Jews and the Romans at the point of witness, of Jesus’ death, his crucifiction–his death is on our hands; we were his enemies, and he loved us not only with his first breath, but also with what we all witnessed is his last.

This is the attitude about the Jews we are instructed to possess within our CCC, this is the re-enactment of the mass: Calvary, we are the Jews; we are the Romans; we are St. Peter, when he denied his lord.

This is what your co-worker would need to be mindful of–it would seem in anycase, the view was harbored not only by SSPXers, but also by Catholics in America, and in Hitler’s Germany–heretical Catholics such as Martin Luther held such anti-Semitic views, shamefully forgetting their place before the altar during the mass. This facilitated Hitler’s fascisim throughout Germany, because it was already within the psyche of the people to harbor resentment toward the Jews, toward Judaism: Hitler promised that Catholicism would be the religion taught in all schools; he fed the superiority of a Catholic to a Jew to those whom already identified Catholicism as superior to Judaism; though, God by way of creating the image of God at the moment each of us were conceived within our own mothers is always calling us to love, and to serve Him.

Prejudice against Jews has been common among Traditionalists long before the creation of SSPX in the 1970’s, and it is in part the reason Pope John XXIII sought to reinvigorate Catholicism through Vatican II: Catholicism was in sore need of it, and these elements of what some say is only the promotion of a liberal agenda through the media, a liberal agenda once decidedly Catholic in many respects, you should note has not been without cause, but for very good reason–we forget the importance of our place at the foot of the cross on calvary.

Most sincerely,

Kristopher

Kristopher

Thank you for your voice of reason compassion and intelligence. It has been sorely missed

 

[chosen_people]

“. You make your ancestors into weak snivelling cowards when in fact they were smart, resourseful and occarionally cunning…”

Of course we had to be “occassionaly cunning”. You can’t expect western Ashkenazic Jewry to “control all the world’s finances” and all “the media” and have the “United States at our beck and call” just on the basis of our superior I.Q’s.

 

[batteddy]

I posted several posts detailing 2000 thousand years of human suffering

That is YOUR cultural narrative. Not ours. Please do not try to impose it on the rest of society.

All such forms of political identity and “grand narratives” are a form of propaganda, one of the most powerful psychological tools for getting people as worked up as you are over stuff like this.

You are an individual, you should not take any of this so personally. When “the Catholics” are attacked, I hardly take it as an attack on me personally. Catholics being hurt and persecuted upsets me just as much as any other human being. Because I know Catholics are saints and sinners. If you accuse people of seeing “the Jews” as an unrealistic monolith, it is only because you have thought of yourself that way first.

This personal identification with the group label is destructive for any group, an insidious mind-virus, and perhaps is an explanation for why throughout history it has been very hard for people trying to destroy the* group* dynamic (and disassembling such dialectics IS a rightful aspiration) to make the crucial distinction and not destroy the individual human beings in the process.

Of course, one human being suffering is as bad as everyone suffering so large numbers do not impress me. Because suffering is such an existentially subjective experience (and this is coming from an absolutist!) Consider this situation: two people have been selected, Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones. They are brought into seperate rooms and a coin is tossed. Heads, Mr. Smith is tortured. Tails, Mr. Jones. Now, are you really going to tell me that it is worse if both are tortured? If Mr. Jones is being tortured, to whom does it matter whether Mr. Smith is also being tortured? Only to Mr. Smith, but in his seperate room…he might think he is the only one being tortured (after all, he had an equal chance). So when I hear, for example, that 3000 people have died in this Iraq war…I have to think it would be just as bad as if only 3 people died. Because for the family that loses a son, does it really matter whether he was the only one who died or one of thousands? Empathy may add a little, but my point is that suffering is not additive. 3000 deaths is just that: 3000 individual deaths suffered by 3000 individuals, for whom the death is just as bad regardless of whether they were the only victim or one of thousands. No one person suffered “a 3000-death” because suffering is subjective that way, it is not additive.

 

[chosen_people]

That is YOUR cultural narrative. Not ours. Please do not try to impose it on the rest of society.

All such forms of political identity and “grand narratives” are a form of propaganda, one of the most powerful psychological tools for getting people as worked up as you are over stuff like this.

You are an individual, you should not take any of this so personally. When “the Catholics” are attacked, I hardly take it as an attack on me personally. Catholics being hurt and persecuted upsets me just as much as any other human being. Because I know Catholics are saints and sinners. If you accuse people of seeing “the Jews” as an unrealistic monolith, it is only because you have thought of yourself that way first.

This personal identification with the group label is destructive for any group, an insidious mind-virus, and perhaps is an explanation for why throughout history it has been very hard for people trying to destroy the* group* dynamic (and disassembling such dialectics IS a rightful aspiration) to make the crucial distinction and not destroy the individual human beings in the process.

Of course, one human being suffering is as bad as everyone suffering so large numbers do not impress me. Because suffering is such an existentially subjective experience (and this is coming from an absolutist!) Consider this situation: two people have been selected, Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones. They are brought into seperate rooms and a coin is tossed. Heads, Mr. Smith is tortured. Tails, Mr. Jones. Now, are you really going to tell me that it is worse if both are tortured? If Mr. Jones is being tortured, to whom does it matter whether Mr. Smith is also being tortured? Only to Mr. Smith, but in his seperate room…he might think he is the only one being tortured (after all, he had an equal chance). So when I hear, for example, that 3000 people have died in this Iraq war…I have to think it would be just as bad as if only 3 people died. Because for the family that loses a son, does it really matter whether he was the only one who died or one of thousands? Empathy may add a little, but my point is that suffering is not additive. 3000 deaths is just that: 3000 individual deaths suffered by 3000 individuals, for whom the death is just as bad regardless of whether they were the only victim or one of thousands. No one person suffered “a 3000-death” because suffering is subjective that way, it is not additive.

The problem with prejudice against a group is that it ignores people as individuals and defines them as a group. Wild Catholic mobs wiped up to frenzy after a passion play sought only to hurt and kill a Jew and not a particular individual. However you are a teenager and no doubt in time will come to learn empathy and compassion. When you do you will no doubt look back at some of your posts here with more than a little emabarassment. It still wouldn’t hurt you to study my posts detailing Christian persecution against the Jews . It is your history as well as mine. It will also help you understand Jewish objections to that ultimate passion play by Gibson. I have no doubt you have seen it several times and by the nature of your posts it has had the exact negative effect that all good people versed in the history of the passion play feared.

 

[st_julie]

Dear St. Julie,

You can open your Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), or visit vatican.va and view what, unfortunately, has typified views of Jews within Christianity: some replies to your post already address this; however, there does seem to be confusion.
**** It might be pertinent, appropriately to the point for you to confront the view of your co-worker and state very simply to this SSPX member:I thought about doing just that but I feared that I was putting her into an occasion of sin. The same is true regarding the Pope as well. If one knows that the kneejerk reaction will be slanderous or worse, then is it not my responsibility to not ask her any questions?*** the unkindess you speak about Judaism is rash, and worthy of confession****; furthermore, your ignorance of the mass extant, still in existence since the late 1400’s is unfortunate–you as a Traditionalist should be well enough familiar that mass in the tradition of the altar against the wall, and the priest with back to the congregation reflects the Crucifixion of Jesus, and those of us: congregation and clergy alike, are the Jews and the Romans at the point of witness, of Jesus’ death, his crucifiction–his death is on our hands; we were his enemies, and he loved us not only with his first breath, but also with what we all witnessed is his last.

This is the attitude about the Jews we are instructed to possess within our CCC, this is the re-enactment of the mass: Calvary, we are the Jews; we are the Romans; we are St. Peter, when he denied his lord.

This is what your co-worker would need to be mindful of–it would seem in anycase, the view was harbored not only by SSPXers, but also by Catholics in America, and in Hitler’s Germany–heretical Catholics such as Martin Luther held such anti-Semitic views, shamefully forgetting their place before the altar during the mass. This facilitated Hitler’s fascisim throughout Germany, because it was already within the psyche of the people to harbor resentment toward the Jews, toward Judaism: Hitler promised that Catholicism would be the religion taught in all schools; he fed the superiority of a Catholic to a Jew to those whom already identified Catholicism as superior to Judaism; though, God by way of creating the image of God at the moment each of us were conceived within our own mothers is always calling us to love, and to serve Him.

Prejudice against Jews has been common among Traditionalists long before the creation of SSPX in the 1970’s, and it is in part the reason Pope John XXIII sought to reinvigorate Catholicism through Vatican II: Catholicism was in sore need of it, and these elements of what some say is only the promotion of a liberal agenda through the media, a liberal agenda once decidedly Catholic in many respects, you should note has not been without cause, but for very good reason–we forget the importance of our place at the foot of the cross on calvary.

Most sincerely,

Kristopher

 

[bear06]

Therefore my assertation is correct!

What assertation? If it’s the one where the Catholic Faith is not anti-semitic but there are some claiming to be Catholic and are anti-semitic, you’re right! Whoo hoo!

Really, please be a little less vague.

 

[chosen_people]

What assertation? If it’s the one where the Catholic Faith is not anti-semitic but there are some claiming to be Catholic and are anti-semitic, you’re right! Whoo hoo!

Really, please be a little less vague.

In as much as ideologies such as Jewish natrualism, for example, are part of the Catholic faith than Catholicism is antisemitic